How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[guanophore]

Thank you!!! Yes, this is “salvation” according to Catholicism; ultimately, salvation by works. For this reason Catholicism has no concept of “saved” in this lifetime.

No, Moon. You keep trying to squeeze the Apostolic Teaching on salvation into the narrow Reformed box, something that happens once in time, for all time. The Apostles taught that there are some aspects of salvation that are accomplished when we are born again, some that we work out throughout our lives, and some that are completed after we depart this life.

What is described here is the particular judgement, where all of our hidden thoughts are laid bare.

One of the reasons your assertion is false is that there is no such thing as “salvation by works”. This is something you made up so you have an excuse to reject Catholicism.

Second, persons are saved at baptism, when they are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. Some of these people don’t have any deeds to be judged later, such as those that die immediately or shortly after baptism, and those who are unable to commit sins.

1 Cor 4:5
5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

Your OSAS theology is a direct disobedience to the Apostolic teaching not to pronounce judgement before the time. You maintain that your sins have no bearing for you at the judgement, but scripture indicates otherwise.

We do not know everything, the way God does.

1 Tim 5:24-25
4 The sins of some men are conspicuous, pointing to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. 25 So also good deeds are conspicuous; and even when they are not, they cannot remain hidden.

Phil 3:12-16

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

The Apostle indicates that judging oneself “saved” before the time is immature.

1 Cor 4:3-4
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

The reason Catholics refer to OSAS as presumptuous is because it requires it’s adherants to do things avoided by the Apsotles themselves.

Salvation, for Catholics, leaves the judgement up to God.

 

[Tanner9188]

You missed the point.

Tanner, what is your assurance that the “the resident Truth Teacher” is the one you hear and the one who guides you when you read the Holy Bible? The problem is, every Protestant claims to have the “resident Truth Teacher” guiding them when they are reading and interpreting the Holy Bible. And yet, each and every one of them understands a different Gospel, because there are THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS of Protestant sects! This means that either

What does the Scripture say in that regard?

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom. 8:16-17

God is the one who gives the ability to see and articulate His truth as revealed in Scripture via the Spirit, which leads one to the correct understanding of Scripture. Before I was a Christian I would read God’s word and a few things I understood; but most I did not although I thought I did. I’ll give you an example because I see this error all the time.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 " Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ."

“the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”

There are many other versus to this effect; so to understand if someone has the ability to discern the understanding of the word of God; that person must first have the resident Spirit Teacher; otherwise they have no ability to discern the things of God.

The point is that He indwells the individual persons He has chosen to lead and guide; not a “Church” institution. It is a grave error for one to trust that the magisterium of the Catholic Church was given the Holy Spirit; that is not what God says nor how He operates and He does not recognize, nor acknowledge this in His word.

Don’t believe me; I encourage you to search the Scripture to see if what I say is true, if so then you need to embrace it; if not, then you need to provide Scriptural proof as to what I stated is false; so I or others can learn from our mistakes.

this means that either 1) The resident Truth Teacher is a liar, or
2) Each and every one, except possibly a few (and who are those exactly? You? MD?), of the Protestants is a liar, or
3) Each and every one of the Protestants misunderstood the Truth Teacher.

And no one can merely use the the Holy Bible to judge who is wrong in interpretation, because it is EXACTLY the interpretation of the Holy Bible that is in dispute!

If you can’t use the Voice of God to discern right from wrong concerning the things of God; then you do not have the Holy Spirit and therefore are at the mercy of mans fallible interpretations. I have already shown from His voice, that it is the working of the Holy Spirit in the life of the individual that allows each individual to know freely the things of God.

Number 2 is the closest; there are few as Jesus said many times and most decisively in Matthew 7:13-14. You apparently trust that the “Catholic Church” is infallible in interpreting Scripture, but that would be in direct contradiction to what God has said and should raise serious concern about the condition of ones own soul IMO.

Each person must make his/her choice and hope they got it right; I have zero doubts that I have found the narrow gate; strived to enter through it and I am now walking the narrow path.

And mis-using that expensive machine (the Gospel, our own eternal happiness) with a faulty understanding the manual (the Holy Bible) is catastrophic.

Do you understand my point?
Not really; I thought we got help from the “maker” of the machine.

 

[guanophore]

Not my position, but the Biblical [rightly divided] position.

And what makes your way of interpreting the Scripture more “right” than mine?

You who advocate a works salvation: Just how much must you work? How many masses before you know that you are saved? ???

I advocate that there is no such thing as"works salvation". Scripture is clear about this. I think it is a strawman made up by those who do not understand the right relationship of sacred works in the Christian life.

As to “how many” or “how much”, the answer is ALL! We are to die, and our lives be hidden with Christ in God. There is to be " no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".

All of our deeds are to be done in grace, through faith. There is no amount of activity that is to be separated from Him. To the extent that we fall short, we have missed the mark.

You quote the book of James. I would remind you that James is writing to Israel, not the Body of Christ. [James 1:1]. May God the Holy Spirit give you a better insight into the Word of God. Grace and Peace.

Quick, the Church included this book in the NT because it is written by, for, and about Catholics. I agree, the Christians were Hebrews, but they are just as much a part of the Body of Christ as the Gentiles.

James 2:1
2:1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

I cannot fathom how someone could read this, and think this epistle is not directed to Christians.

 

[SteveGC]

Are you asking what it means “to believe”? If so; then are you willing to spend 30 minutes or so to get the answer?

I do appreciate your offer, Tanner…but I am quite aware of the meaning of “believe”. I was going after moon’s concept of it.

What I essentially gathered from his response was that belief which rewards one instantaneously with eternal life can simply be saying you believe after hearing the good news…that there is nothing essential needed in the heart regarding a love for Christ, simply a sincere belief - much like how I might say “I believe tomorrow will come”…then right there, eternal life for you is assured. And that someone who does this “will know” when instant salvation is his…and until he knows, he must keep on attempting to “truly” believe, whatever that means.

In a nutshell, it confirmed for me that this instant salvation theology you guys preach is delusional.

But yes, by all means, give me your 30 minute offering of it too…I’m all ears

 

[Tanner9188]

Agree. And as you will see, I think it is you who will be found guilty of that charge, not me.

You have quoted these lines out of context. You should have included the preceding verse:

[12] …and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
[14] having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 2:12-14 (RSV)

According to St. Paul, upon baptism the “old self” in us, the one who revels and lives in sin, is killed along with Christ in Jesus’ crucifixion:

[1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
[2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
[3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
[4] We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
[6] **We know that our *old self ***was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
[7] For he who has died is freed from sin.
Romans 6:1-7 (RSV)

Therefore St. Paul was talking about the forgiveness of sins during baptism, which according to St. Paul was when the old self was killed (“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh”) and the past sins nailed to the Cross of Christ, so that the new self is resurrected in a new birth along with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, free from sin.

[1] Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.
[2] This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”
[3] Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[4] Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
[5] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:1-6 (RSV)

And this, Tanner, is Catholic teaching about the Sacrament of Baptism.

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church

continued…

Which Baptism saves or Who saves?
Matthew 3:11 - (cf Luke 3:16)
"As for me, I baptize you with 1) water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the 2) Holy Spirit and 3) fire.
**
Who saves? God! Which of the 3 shown above is God? Which is the true Baptism in the versus you cited above? The immersion or indwelling of the Holy Spirit into the believer. Do you see the consistent theme on relation to the saved and the Holy Spirit. Water does nothing to remove sin and is not a biblical teaching; it is God that saves, not water; how foolish IMO to give water some divine authority. Al we would have to do is bath every night before we went to bed and hope we dies in our sleep.**

 

[Tanner9188]

Again, you post out of context:

[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[1]My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[2] and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 1:9-2:2 (RSV)

Read the whole thing for yourself and see if it was me or you who make things out of context.

I hope you were posting those out of ignorance or you really were trying to fit the Word of God to what you are trying to say, because if the latter is your intent, I cannot commend you; that would be dishonesty.

Again you post out of context. Put Colossians 2 in context with Colossians 1…and I think this will shock you:

[24]Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church…
Colossians 1:24 (RSV)

***THERE IS SOMETHING LACKING IN CHRIST’S AFFLICTIONS!!! ***

And what is that something? Actually, everyday life shows what is lacking.

When you steal, if you are forgiven, is the stolen property returned automatically?

When you have sex outside marriage and you get either (1) an STD, (2) illegitimate children, (3) a broken marriage, or (4) any or all of the above, if you are forgiven, are those problems solved?

In other words, when you are forgiven for your sins, are all of the consequences of those sins removed?

In other words, the expiation for sin by Jesus Christ’s suffering and death on the Way of the Cross removes much but not all of the damage brought by sin on the world. And according to St. Paul, we can “complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions” by rejoicing in our suffering…by penance.

“The worst kind of suffering is wasted suffering.”

Read more here

Amen indeed.

continued…

You do not understand the passage; Paul was being afflicted by the same people that put Christ on the cross; so these people turned their hatred for Christ to those that preached the gospel, as all the apostles found out and other martyrs for Christ. We are all told we will suffer for His namesake.See Galatians 6:17
searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=galatians+6%3A17&section=2&translation=nas&oq=spirit%2520and%2520fire&new=1

 

[Tanner9188]

Oh don’t worry, I, and the Catholic Church since around 2000 yrs ago, have found how to complement St. Paul’s teachings and St. James…and it is in the Holy Bible too:

[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
1 Corinthians 15:10

Good works is cooperation with grace. And it is this cooperation (see what St. Paul says about the grace given to him was “not in vain”?) that has merit in God’s eyes.

[14]Jesus said, "For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property;
[15] to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
[16] He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more.
[17] So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more.
[18] But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.
[19] Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
[20] And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' [21] His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
[22] And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' [23] His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
[24] He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; [25] so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' [26] But his master answered him, You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?
[27] Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
[28] So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
[29] For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
[30] And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
Matthew 25:14-30 (RSV)

See what happens to those who do not use the grace given to them?

And yet how can you boast of something when it was not you but by the power of someone else that you are able to do something? It is as if you boast you can fly on your own because you pilot an airplane.

continued

**The issue is “saving grace”; which is not what Paul is referring to.

The talents

The recipients of divine grace inherit immeasurable blessings in addition to eternal life and the favor of God (Romans 8:32). But those who despise the riches of Gods goodness, forbearance and longsuffering (Romans 2:4) burying them in the ground and clinging instead to the paltry and transient goods of this world, will in the end will loose every thing they have.

How were you saved?**

 

[Tanner9188]

You are beating around the bush. I was asking if THAT happened to YOUR child, what are YOU going to do about it? Can you yourself do something if he refuses all your help? THAT is the Father’s dilemma in the Prodigal Son. THAT is God’s dilemma with a resolute Christian sinner. And THAT is going to be YOUR dilemma when it happens to your son. And no, unfortunately, whatever your kid does, he is STILL your son.

You are one of those mean ole nuns aren’t you; the ones Catholics have such fond memories and love to share with everyone…yikes.

And THAT is what adoption is all about. Even if your child was wayward, if you adopted him/her, he/she is still legally your child. You cannot just disown him/her and say “He/She is the son/daughter of the Devil!” And that is also why there is such a thing as the Sacrament of Baptism, and there is the Sacrament of Reconciliation: the effects of the Sacrament of Baptism, that of adoption into God’s family, cannot be rescinded. You haven’t a clue about the Tale of Two Sons; it meaning and implications.

And you know what, how can your version of the Gospel be of any comfort to anyone?. Are you telling me if I sin hard enough, God is going to disown me while I am still here on Earth?!? :bigyikes: How is THAT a "Gospel of Assured Salvation?

The gospel of grace is only meant to be a comfort to those who believe; you are not one of them IMO and discernment, that is why you have no comfort except that which you espouse here, but you are easy to discern; you are very miserable in the inside and have many doubts and regrets in your life till this day.

not the God that I have known through the Catholic Church :dts:

We agree here 100%. May God bless you with eyes to see and ears to hear what the Spirit of the Lord has to say.

 

[Tanner9188]

Perhaps neither was Trinitarian …if so, come to the Church for a valid Baptism.

If both were Trinitarian, but your first was a TEST of God, and you really didn’t believe and desire to be reborn — then it probably wasn’t efficacious. Seems like this was your conclusion – since later in life you developed some measure of faith, and desired to be washed of sin.

However, for you to now conclude that this second Baptism was invalid and not efficacious [provided it was Trinitarian] … is probably erroneous. Did you expect to glow in the dark, or have a halo over head immediately afterwards ? The fact you didn’t promptly receive your heavenly garments & harp … doesn’t mean grace wasn’t conveyed to you. Unless, of course you barred Christ from touching your soul … telling Christ you only desired your outside clean, and not our inner heart/soul.

Remember, first Confession and Baptism is only the beginning of long journey in life. Paul needed 3 years in desert to get his mind/heart in order, and then spend the rest of his life in service to Christ & final martyrdom… before he perfected / realized the full Gospel message.

Come down to earth Moondweller, start living a life of Christian service, learn to suffer for your Lord and fellowman, and Christ will reveal the ‘gracious works’’ Pauline message to you thru his Church. Why waste your life trying to destroy God’s Church [as had Paul] … when you should be praying to receive your Epiphany re: the true Church of the Apostles.

Who saves? Water or God?
Matthew 3:11
"As for me, I baptize you with 1) water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; **He will baptize **you with the 2) Holy Spirit and 3) fire.

Which of the 3 Baptisms named in this one verse is God? Which therefore is the true Baptism that saves? Water cannot wash or remove any sin; only God can!!!

This is consistent with all of the NT, unless you either distort or change the context or do not understand the context, such as Acts 2:38 as an example. Otherwise God has made an awful lot of exceptions to the saving rule, which He does not do; only a misguided person would believe He does.

 

[Tanner9188]

I do appreciate your offer, Tanner…but I am quite aware of the meaning of “believe”. I was going after moon’s concept of it.

What I essentially gathered from his response was that belief which rewards one instantaneously with eternal life can simply be saying you believe after hearing the good news…that there is nothing essential needed in the heart regarding a love for Christ, simply a sincere belief - much like how I might say “I believe tomorrow will come”…then right there, eternal life for you is assured. And that someone who does this “will know” when instant salvation is his…and until he knows, he must keep on attempting to “truly” believe, whatever that means.

In a nutshell, it confirmed for me that this instant salvation theology you guys preach is delusional.

But yes, by all means, give me your 30 minute offering of it too…I’m all ears

To believe is much more than a superficial statement and believe me MD knows this and what it entails.

It is a read or listen; you can read it faster than you can listen; but i perfer to listen, then to read. you can actually do both. If you have an open heart this will be penetrating I promise

gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-56 “True Belief” - the protestant perspective

Notice at the top you can listen, read, or download for free.

 

[erikd]

What does the Scripture say in that regard?

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom. 8:16-17

God is the one who gives the ability to see and articulate His truth as revealed in Scripture via the Spirit, which leads one to the correct understanding of Scripture. Before I was a Christian I would read God’s word and a few things I understood; but most I did not although I thought I did. I’ll give you an example because I see this error all the time.

Tanner: I would be very interested to hear your answers, in your own words, to the following questions:

#1: Of the 600,000,000 worldwide non-Catholic Christians, how many (you can ballpark this number) different interpretations of the Bible exist? I.e. the rapture, real presence, Sabbath vs. the Lord’s day, etc.

#2: If all Bible believing Christians claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and therefore interpreting Scripture correctly, how do you account for your answer in #1?

#3: If so many different variations of Christianity make up the Church, how do you account for the following Biblical passages?

15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth
. 1 Timothy 3:15

If you answered with a number higher than 1 for question one, can you explain the last verse? For instance would the truth about the rapture be that it is pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or prewrath? And why would this truth override the other three truths, despite the fact they they were all derived from one Bible and through one Holy Spirit?

16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
St. Matthew 18:16-17

If you answered with a number higher than 1 for question one, how can the Church advise someone authoritatively in this situation, if it cannot agree?

16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
St. Luke 10:16

If you answered with a number higher than 1 for question one, what are we to hear? Did Jesus teach us opposing viewpoints for certain issues? Or was Jesus authoritative?

I look forward to your response.

 

[brb2]

To believe is much more than a superficial statement and believe me MD knows this and what it entails.

gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-56 “True Belief” - the protestant perspective

.

Tanner …

This is John MacArthur’s doctrines ! Md and I have discussed this man and his beliefs before … and Md doesn’t buy into the ‘whole package’ of JM’s gospel.

Looks like you have broken your own rule … and are putting your belief in the messenger[errant human], rather than the Message [Christ].

Yes, JM teaches some things rightly … but, he also is strongly anti-Catholic, and seems you have fallen into his error regarding the Catholic Church. This is what invaribly happens when a man thinks he can interpret scriptures apart from the wisdom of the Church. Just because ‘ideas’ come into your head when you read scriptures … doesn’t mean they are from H.S.

satan is at spiritual warfare against those seeking to read the scriptures and discover the truth … and you are no match for his tactics w/o the help of the Church. Go it alone at great risk. Look how satan has divided the protestants into thousands of sects … a Tower of Babel situation where none speaks the same language or can worship in unity. Only in the Catholic Church will you discover the one truth and unity of faith, on a worldwide basis. In every country and nation … every race & creed all speak & sing the same Apostolic Gospel. We all drink from the SAME common cup & break bread, after making full confession.

God’s H.S. has brought you here to hear the Truth from the Church. Much of what you have learned in the past is gravely in error. Your defense mechanisms are protecting your protestant indoctrinations. It will take some massive ‘de-programing’ … to purge the false beliefs about the Church you have received from John Mac & others.

You have acknowledged that many here at CAF have MORE faith than you … so slow down, take your time, and work thru the doctrines of the Church one at a time. Don’t overload your brain trying to understand 2000 years of Christianity and Church teachings in several weeks. Its gonna take much ‘prayer and fasting’ to get the 500 years of protestant ‘rebellion’ misinformation out of your mind … before you can Swim the Tiber.

Many here have lived in your world and already made the transition. They can be of great help to you. Follow the Light !! Until you confess ALL the Mortal sin in your life & break free from your habitual sins … satan will have you at major disadvantage. Get serious about leading a life opposed to your Mortal sins … and you will gain traction resisting satan’s tactics. First off … work on that super-sized Pride. Admit you need help … and accept it when offered.

 

[Tanner9188]

[continued from above]

Scripture verses supporting infused grace:
You are the fairest of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you for ever" (Psalm 45:2).

“For the palace will be forsaken . . . until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest” (Isaiah 32:14-15).

“And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will **pour out **my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:17-18).

“And Stephen, **full of grace **and power, did great wonders and signs among the people” (Acts 6:8).

“And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all **filled with the Holy Spirit **and spoke the word of God with boldness” (Acts 4:31).

“And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been **poured out **even on the Gentiles” (Acts 10:45).

“When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose; for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith” (Acts 11:23-24).

“And hope does not disappoint us, because **God’s love has been poured into our hearts **through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us” (Romans 5:5).

“And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit” (Eph. 5:18).

“He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he** poured out **upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5-7)

Luke 1:28 28 And coming in, he said to her, “Hail full of Grace! The Lord is with you.”

James

**James; I love you man! I never met anyone who could throw it out there and say poured (like as in abundance - like when Jesus poured out His blood) and filled, as in to the max, could be remotely related to infuse, process of extracting.

I do appreciate that you gave me a verse I have been seeking that really leaves no doubt as to the effect of water baptism concerning sin, it is the first act of obedience in the life of a new believer and coming from the lips of your King Peter. My how God can use anyone; praise God James!

The true baptism that saves is the receiving of the Holy Spirit, not the immersion into water.

Matthew 3:11 (cf Luke 3:16) "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Which baptism is the true and effective in regards to salvation? Here are your choices: 1) fire 2) water or 3) Holy Spirit?

What did the apostles teach?
Acts 1 - (Jesus speaking and teaching)
Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” {He said,} “you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Which baptism is the one that saves according to the Word? Is this remotely close to what your “Church” or “religion” teaches? Nope

Acts 10 – (King Peter Speaking)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit **just as we {did,} can he?”
**
Can you get more definitive as this? Well maybe, moving along in Acts and stopping for a visit in chapter 15.

Acts 15 - (King Peter speaking)
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ,

Yeah! God just gives that “listen then believe the gospel, then immediately receive” Holy Spirit - just like that, all of grace.

Acts 2:38 - (In correct grammatical form and in accord with the whole of Scripture)
Peter {said} to them, "Repent and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

Notice the grammatical structure here? Repent (third-person singular simple present -repents) and receive (third-person singular simple present - receives) are present tense and go together, justt as baptized (Simple past tense and past participle of baptize.) and forgiveness (From forgiven + -ness.=Past participle of forgive.)**

 

[Thing]

So based on the Catholic definition in light of the Biblical definition; are you going to directly answer the questions I asked or are you choosing to side step them? I already applied to “thing” erroneous view of Scripture and his apparent confusion concerning sackcloth. In other words; it does not address the questions.

God bless!

Someone mention my name?

“Strangely enough, the opposite charge is often heard, viz., that the confession of sin is intolerable and hard and therefore alien to the spirit of Christianity and the loving kindness of its Founder. But this view, in the first place, overlooks the fact that Christ, though merciful, is also just and exacting. Furthermore, however painful or humiliating confession may be, it is but a light penalty for the violation of God’s law. Finally, those who are in earnest about their salvation count no hardship too great whereby they can win back God’s friendship”

Christ said to the sick man of the palsy: “Thy sins are forgiven thee.” “And there were some of the scribes sitting there, and thinking in their hearts: Why doth this man speak thus? he blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins but God only?” But Jesus seeing their thoughts, said to them: “Which is easier to say to the sick of the palsy: Thy sins are forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up thy bed and walk? But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say to thee: Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house” ( Mark 2:5-11 ; Matthew 9:2-7 ). Christ wrought a miracle to show that He had power to forgive sins and that this power could be exerted not only in heaven but also on earth.

The Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, he breathed upon His disciples saying: ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained’ ( John 20:22-23 ). By which action so signal and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles and to their lawful successors, for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after Baptism. (Sess. XIV, c. i)

Later He says to all the Apostles : "Amen I say to you, *whatsoever *you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven ; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven " ( Matthew 18:18 ).

 

[Tanner9188]

EDIT: scratch head hmm, it seems I misread your message. No, I do not advocate a “works salvation.” A scheme of “salvation by works” has no room for grace…which I totally do not believe.

“Apart from me you can do nothing.”

Apparently you are in Limbo; with the babies that died before being sprinkled with water and as a result of that Catholic teaching; grieved many parents at the time they needed consoling the most; but do they still teach that? I’m pretty sure they have changed on that; not sure, i have heard mixed opinions on this subject.

The New Testament contains no definite statement of a positive kind regarding the lot of those who die in original sin without being burdened with grievous personal guilt. But, by insisting on the absolute necessity of being “born again of water and the Holy Ghost” (John 3:5) for entry into the kingdom of Heaven (see BAPTISM, subtitle Necessity of Baptism), Christ clearly enough implies that men are born into this world in a state of sin, and St. Paul’s teaching to the same effect is quite explicit (Romans 5:12 sqq.). On the other hand, it is clear from Scripture and Catholic tradition that the means of regeneration provided for this life do not remain available after death, so that those dying unregenerate are eternally excluded from the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision (John 9:4, Luke 12:40, 16:19 sqq., 2 Corinthians 5:10; see also APOCATASTASIS). The question therefore arises as to what, in the absence of a clear positive revelation on the subject, we ought in conformity with Catholic principles to believe regarding the eternal lot of such persons. Now it may confidently be said that, as the result of centuries of speculation on the subject, we ought to believe that these souls enjoy and will eternally enjoy a state of perfect natural happiness; and this is what Catholics usually mean when they speak of the limbus infantium, the “children’s limbo.”
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

This is totally “Catholic” opinion; as it says. opinion on interpretation; sounds a little fallible. Especially in light of what David said, which leaves no doubt as to where children who die are. But they did not search the Scripture and when they did; they took it out of context to impose their opinion.

What is the reason people go to hell? For rejecting the Son of God or rejecting what has been revealed in His general revelation if they have not heard the gospel; then how in the world would a child or infant have that capacity - logical reasoning based on Gods character. Ouch!

2 Samuel 12 -
Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s widow bore to David, so that he was very sick.16 David therefore inquired of God for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them. 18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm!” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead; so David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” And they said, “He is dead.” 20 So David arose from the ground, washed, anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he came into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he came to his own house, and when he requested, they set food before him and he ate.

21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, `Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ 23 “But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? **I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” **

David certainly knew where the child was; why doesn’t the Catholic Church?

Apparently you are in Limbo →
I say this because your own Church explicitly teaches a “works justification” and you deny the Protestant faith, and maybe the Catholic teaching unless you are the typical cafeteria variety? I don’t know; but your Church does teach a meritorious works justification.

“If man, as the Protestant theory of justification teaches, is justified by faith alone, by the external justice of Christ, or God, the conclusion which Martin Luther (Sermo de nat. Maria) drew must follow, namely that “we are all equal to Mary the Mother of God and just as holy as she”. But if on the other hand, according to the teaching of the Church, we are justified by the justice and merits of Christ in such fashion that this becomes formally our own justice and holiness, then there must result an inequality of grace in individuals, and for two reasons: first, because 1) according to the generosity of God or the receptive condition of the soul an unequal amount of grace is infused; **THIS IS A BIZARRE TEACHING IMO **(This is definitely not what God has said) then, also, 2) because the grace originally received can be increased by the performance of good works (Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii, can. xxiv). This possibility of increase in grace by good works…”
newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

The sacraments thus far considered were merely signs of sacred things. According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, accepted today by many Episcopalians, the sacraments of the Christian dispensation are not mere signs; they do not merely signify Divine grace, but in virtue of their Divine institution, they cause that grace in the souls of men. “Signum sacro sanctum efficax gratiae”

Grace: Defined by Catholicism
Actual Grace
Explains the concept of actual grace, which is defined in the article as** “a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ.”
**
Sanctifying Grace
Describes the nature and characteristics of sanctifying grace; also treats of **“justification”, which is the preparation for sanctifying grace.
**
newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm

 

[Tanner9188]

What say thee?:

Matthew 7:21 - not Lord, Lord, but he who does the wiil of the Father

Matthew 19:16-17 - to have life, keep my commandments

John 14:21 - he who keeps my commandments loves me

Romans 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverence in good works

Galatians 5:4-6 - nothing counts but faith working through love

Ephesians 2:8-10 - we are created in Christ Jesus for good works

Phil 2:12-13 - work out salvation with fear and trembling

James 2:14-24 - a man is justified by works and faith alone

Romans 2:5-8 God will repay each man according to his works

2 Corinthians 5:10 - recompense accored to what we did in the body

2 Corinthians 11:15 - their end will correspond to their deeds

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges impartially according to one’s works

Revelation 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their deeds

Colossians 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do

**
MD; you have been condemned**…

 

[Tanner9188]

This is a half-truth.

Forgiveness is bestowed on those who repent and believe.

charis = Grace;

1. (Christian theology) the free and unmerited favour or beneficence of God
2. Free and undeserved favour, especially of God. Unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification.
3. good will, loving-kindness, unmerited favour (of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

Grace defined by Catholics
newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm
Grace

1. Actual Grace
   Explains the concept of actual grace, which is defined in the article as “a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ.”
2. Sanctifying Grace
   Describes the nature and characteristics of sanctifying grace; also treats of “justification”, which is the preparation for sanctifying grace.

 

[Tanner9188]

You can stop repeating yourself then. I think I can safely speak for the Catholics on this thread and say emphatically, WE DO NOT TAKE TAKE YOUR WORD FOR ANYTHING!

We Catholics do, indeed, search the Scriptures. We read them daily and actually pray when we do read them. We also trust in our Lord and Savior when He told us that He would not leave us orphans, all alone, like yourself. We trust Him because He told us He would be with us through His Church, His Mystical Body, until the end of time. We trust Him because He sent His Holy Spirit to the Church to guide us in ALL truth, not some cheap salvation offered by wolves in sheep in clothing.

Once again Tanner, your personal interpetation of Holy Scripture is blasphemous, an utter and complete distortion of God’s Word. Heaven help you.

**You must be Christian; I feel the love and kindness you exert like that of Jesus. Have you ever searched the Scriptures to see if anything was true from anyone? I encourage you to do so; you might shed some of that hatred. **

 

[Tanner9188]

Why don’t you let MD speak for himself rather that engage your regular habit of making others as well as the scriptures speak through your interpretation of them?

I think MD has been pretty clear that he thinks SIN has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation and it is ONLY by faith that we are saved. In MDs world sin can no longer be an issue to us since that one single public “I believe” is THE ONLY thing one needs - ASSUMING OF COURSE YOU ARE ONE OF THE FEW LUCKY ELECT WHO “TRULY” BELIEVES. But of course this is where MD can’t tell us how to distinguish from a mere believer and a true believer or else might say something like “by their fruits they shall be known” - but never tell us how long the fig tree must produce before it’s cursed.

The thing you both hold in common though is the error of thinking salvation is is manifest only in the here and now and you fail to see that good works and spiritual fruit LINGER FOREVER after a TRUE BELIEVER ( ) leaves this earth. This is the work of the saints and the miracles they leave in their wake and in the people they have influenced for “the greater good” for all eternity. I am still waiting for someone to point to a single Protestant “saint” who has confirmed miracles as evidence that a single Protestant has ever been “saved”. No doubt some Protestants who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Faith can be saved but I’d say its pretty obvious that God is not ratifying the error of Protestantism since He has not give a single deceased Protestant a single miracle to confirm as a saint. Is there any wonder that Protestant’s are so adamant in their contempt for the communion of the saints or their veneration?

James

Hi buddy;

You just did the same thing you accused me of…LOL

As I said; search the Scripture to see if things are true; take no ones word, no institutions word, no commentaries word or any other source of teaching without comparing to the truth. If it is, then embrace it; if it is not, then explain why it is not and support your position so we can all learn. I have said this numerous times; but all you get is lip service and insults and an occasional blob of Scripture thrown out there for no apparent or relevant reason.

Is that unreasonable?

Bless you buddy!

 

[Tanner9188]

Please quit beating around the bush. No, I just want to know: who told YOU that the Protestant Bible is without error?

God