If the teaching is explicit it should be easily found. Can you show me where in the Catechism this is stated? How about in the Summa? Maybe a letter from the Pope (ex-cathedra)? If you cannot show this, can you at least agree that you’ve made an error in judgement by making the above statement?
Erik, I’ll help Tanner out with a link. Doubtful he’ll read it, but…
All bickering aside, Tanner…I did take the time to read this. Despite some theological flaws in the notion of instant salvation - instantly heaven bound…I must say his discussion of “belief” was very well-done, and is indeed quite compatible with The Catholic Church’s guidance on the necessity of humility for authentic belief. Humility after all, is the antidote virtue to pride, the original sin of man. So I did appreciate this reading. Shame we can’t agree on the timing of our worthiness for the beatific vision.
Thank you James; may I have another? Praise God and count it as a blessing when men say all kinds of vile and evil things against you; rejoice for you reward is great…amen! Thanks again; I love you man!Oh my Lord save us from this man’s nonsense!
So your teaching here is “go have sex for Jesus and copulate your way into heaven!!!”And you tell Catholics WE have a works based salvation???
Let me guess, you would have no problem manufacturing new “Christian condoms” impressed with the letters “WWJD” and selling them as expressions of faith and then giving 10% of the profits to your church under a tawdry banner of saving men from their sins?
What Jesus would do is rebuke you to your face. And I won’t tell you what the apostle Peter would want to do to you with his sword if you showed up preaching this nonsence around him.
Hint: It’s related to an incompetent circumcision.
James
Do you ever pray to St Christopher for traveling mercy? I was looking at the “NewAdvent” just browsing around St Christopher and St Jude and St Joan of Arc and it is kind of interesting all of the saints and another one St Juan “Something”; can’t remember. I also came across another site that has a list of saints and in different categories. What is the distinction of patron saints versus “normal” saints? I know this is off topic, but it is in my mind and I’ll forget; so if you want to PM me; then that is fine.
The truth be known; all of you have greater faith than I do IMO.
First of all; I should not have said that even though I have observed it and felt it from some of you posts and others; however some things are better left unsaid. If it bothers me that bad, then I should just not respond. So I apologize to you and Guanaphore publicly on this forum; please let Guanaphore aware of this public apology…I apologize for saying you and he were whiners; I prove myself to be whining by making such a stupid statement.pray-tell…what precisely am I “whining” about? Or are you saying I’m an annoyance to you because I’m serving as a road-block to your proselytization agenda here? If that’s the case…get me some more cheese please, cuz there’s more whine a-comin’
James; I apologized to them; see previous post.
Sorry maam; I was was asked about contraception. We will drop this subject but do yourself a favor and do not read CentralFloridaJames reply; you might have a heart attack…I’m serious.
I did not know that, the once a year sackcloth. I don’t believe I have heard anyone ever mention that before…thanks. Does the Pope set the example and put on Sackcloth?
The Apocalypse is a book of the New Testament, circa 100AD.
Catholics are supposed to put on their sackcloth at least once a year, usually around Easter time. But its not restricted, penance is good;
1 And in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. 2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by Isaias the prophet, saying: A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths. 4 And the same John had his garment of camels’ hair,
This is a metaphor. We are expected to go to sacramental penance once a year, not actually wear sackcloth
Patron saints are saints that are examples and supporters of various groups. There are patron saints of countries and professions, for example. I personally do not pray to any saints, other than Mary. Its not required to do so. Its a matter of personal choice.
the Catholic church is unified on matters of Faith, doctrine and morals. these come directly from God through the Apostles and there is no room for debate. There is considerable room for debate on the area of Church practice, which is the “how” the infallible teachings of the church are brought to the people. The language used in mass is a practice, for instance, and not a doctrine. The celibaate priesthood is a practice and not a doctrine as well. on the other hand, The stand against Abortion is doctrinal, based on the fifth commandment and no devout Catholic will say otherwise. Same with the prohibition against divorce. That is also doctrinal.
You seem pretty introspective tonight. Keep searching your heart. the truth will come out.
Oh come now Tanner. Are you not one who always would tell us that YOU are “full of the Holy Spirit”? Please explain how YOU can get “filled” with the Holy Spirit by a Pharisaical forensic/judicial declaration of IMPUTED grace that is not in you but through some divine bookkeeping “accredited” to your account?
Do you understand what infusion means? Infusion has always had a semantic of ‘introducing’ a certain modifying element or quality (often through fluid/incense/smoke etc.) that imparts a new “essence” into the thing that receives it. Hey bro, think pregnancy/rebirth or change of nature like a transformational yeast that’s introduced into the crushed grape (there’s suffering again bro) that becomes “spirited” and a new substance that has certain “grape” nuances in color and flavor but is now elevated in nature to fermented wine. We often see in the bible imagery of God’s positive restorative influence on man as a “thing” we call “grace” that is transmitted as if it was poured from God to man as if man is a container (e.g. new wine skins, pots, vessels, cups, chalice, bowels etc.). This pouring and transformational/infusion imagery runs all through the Bible. It is the same imagery we see way back in Genesis when God "“breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Gen 2:7). It is a masculine concept/act - a creative act of God the FATHER.And God can slay thousands with the jawbone of an a[r]ss too [judges 15:16]. Be careful you are on the right side of that bro.
LOL “Notice” you quoted the scripture backward?
I suppose you do not know that Catholics fast, pray, give alms and repent every Lent for 40 days? We have gotten away from sack cloth since its too obvious that we are suffering - we try to be more modest about it in accordance with the NT teachings. But penance is a huge part of salvation of repentance and developing the proper interior state of contrition to open us up more to God’s grace and inner transformation.
So sackcloth and ashes in the OT was the normal attire?Although; you might just do it; you have a real Catholic zeal.
There is a specific word used in the NT for priest and it is a marked distinction in the roles from the Pastors, overseers and deacons. You know this is true, but to admit the truth is to deny the faith.
For example: And Jesus *said to him, “See that you tell no one; but go, show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”
hiereus - a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites
Used around 70 times and always referring to the OT priest; maybe one exceotpion, but I could not find it…found it Paul in Romans 15:16;
Paul used in an interesting manner “hierourgeō” to minister in the manner of a priest, minister in priestly service of the preaching of the gospel (Used only one time on this form in the NT, then their is the High Priest)
episkopos = overseer from base root of shepherd.; the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church 1 Tim. 3:2
presbyteros= elder a term of rank or office: among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) **The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably **
1 Peter 5:1 uses this “sympresbyteros” = fellow elder (unique and is used only 1 time in the NT)
diakonos deacon = servant; a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
Show me where I am wrong?
You will never see or any 1st and 2nd century ecf’s use the term priest “hiereus”. Clement did not refer to himself as Pope; that is also a lie.)
James
**No priest here either; why do you insist on making things up and impose and distort Gods voice? Don’t you understand what you are bringing upon yourself?
Sorry about messing the format up; getting late and am fading fast.**
**That is no surprise; a majority of religious people do indeed reject the gospel of grace; that is why they are all on the broad way and entered by wide gate; so they can all come together with all of their religious baggage merrily heading to hell on a path marked heaven. **
All humans are fallible; except for Jesus. I have never seen an infallible interpretation from any one; but this is the infinite mind of God speaking to finite man. That should not be a suprise.
Thanks, but I am 100% certain I will be with the Lord if I were to die today. Because I embrace the Lordship of Christ. I’ll bypass purgatory because absent from body is to be present with the Lord…Amen
Because of who they are, Who indwells them, and who their Father is.
Can you give me a quote from one of my posts?
You really have no idea how one is redeemed, do you?
You’re the one expressing all the “notions” here.
No. It’s exactly the word I meant to use. Here’s a just a couple of the many exhortations found in Scripture:Rom 12:1 “Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
I’ve always shared with you only what the Scriptures teach.
No, my friend, as you can see these are Catholic lenses, according to Catholic doctrine.moondweller:
But you see, you are looking at this totally through your protestant lenses.
It’s more that that. It’s his “initial” justification. His “initial” salvation. Not according to his will, not according to his own faith, but forced on him. There is no free will expressed on his part. He’s forced to be a Catholic and live by Catholic salvation rules.
There’s no true free will expressed here at all. From the moment he was born everything was forced upon him. When he can make his own decisions it’s either conform or suffer the unpleasant consequences.
You mean the so-called “state of grace” that was forced on him at birth.
By force.
Nevertheless, it all begins with no free will action on the child’s part. When he’s old enough it then becomes a threat. So you see, Paul, You Catholics really aren’t the great warriors of “free will” as you think you are.
Of course. A man is saved “by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works.”
This is an important statement. How can you trust that what you have received are the real Scriptures?
Everything that Jesus committed to the Church through the Apostles. He did not give them anything “extraneous”.
In this context, the words “pray to” mean “ask” or “supplicate”. Yes, I ask many prayer warriors to pray for me, and I especially ask for the effectual fervent prayers of the righteous, which have great power in their effects.
God wants us to pray for one another, and to rely on others for help.
I think you misunderstood the commandment.
The problem with your method, Tanner, is that everyone who reads interprets what he reads according to his own experience and education (or lack of it). What you are promoting here is your interpretations of the scriptures. You believe that, if we “search the scriptures” by the power of the HS, we will understand them the same way that you do.
It may seem this way to you because of your deficient concept of the nature of the Church.
This is very true. The Truth was committed to the Church, and it is entrusted to Bishops such as Timothy and Titus. They are strongly commanded by the Apostle to “gueard that which has been entrusted to you”. This is what the Church has done, and this is why the canon of scripture could be recognized by the Church.
Everything that occurs in an infants life is done with ‘force’. His parents make decisions (out of love) for him for his sake because he cannot.
This passage is written entirely in past tense because it refers to those who have been through all these aspects of salvation. Paul is talking about the saints who have gone to their heavenly reward.
I looked back over the last several pages, trying to figure out what you might be categorizing as “whining”.
No, you don’t respect that rule, Tanner. I point it out to you when you are violating it, and apparently you consider this observation “whining”. If you are getting tired of me observing your evangelistic efforts, instead of blaming me for it, maybe you would consider changing your tune? Or else accept my encouragement to set up a website to evangelize out of your own pocket?
I admit CAF is biased toward Catholics and Catholic evangelism.
I just read several of your posts that equate what you are saying with what God says. You seem to believe that your words here will change us. You have been encouraging us to compare the teachings of the Catholic Church with the Scripture, because you seem to believe that, if we “search the scripture” we will conclude as you have that Catholic teaching is false.
Maybe you can’t leave until your single minded agenda has been completed?
