How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

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The red; eliminates infant baptism, they don’t have the capacity to become Christians since they cannot understand sin; nor would they understand fasting.

The blue; seems like both are hypocrites since neither is Biblical; in fact that is quite funny IMO.
My my - you bounce all over the theology board like a whack a mole automata when you run headlong into solid arguments that refute your position don’t you? That’s not a sign of a stalwart soldier of Christ but somone who is dancing around and unable to defend his faith.

Your conclusions of course are illogical and - besides its not what the historical church ever believed. The Church baptised entire households all at one time.

More here:
Infant Baptism In Scripture

Infant Baptism in Church History - ECFs

Anything else you want to try to quick-draw and slap iron with us on Tanner? 😃

James
 
**You might want to take that large “C” and bring it down to a little “c”; as in universal, not Catholic or Roman Catholic. Changes the meaning and context quite a bit.
**
And why would we want to change the case of Catholic to little c just to suit your beliefs Tanner? The early church fathers made it clear where the universal church was - where the bishops are. Do you follow an apostolic bishop Tanner?

The early church followed Catholic Bishops - why don’t you?
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and **bishop of the Catholic Church **which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the **Catholic Church **for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177). *
Show me in the Bible the baptism of one infant and I might agree. Show me the Eucharist - never mind about that one; that will open an old can of worms. sigh
See my prior links: “BRING THE CHILDREN TO ME”.

Why does Tanner’s salvation depend on the intellectual maturity of the Christian? Does God condemn the adults with the mental capacity of children or adults who suffer brain damage or stroke etc. and loss of reasoning capacity to hell? 🤷

James
 
Tanner, Catholics believe that the fullness of divine revelation consists both of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Christ founded a Church, which preceded Scripture. Scripture comes from the Church, not the other way around.
That doesn’t mean that Catholics don’t read Scripture. Every Catholic Church I have attended has had Bible Study. We read Sacred Scripture at every Mass–OT, Psalms, and NT. Personal reading of the Bible is encouraged by the Church. Saint Jerome, who translated a vernacular bible in the 4th Century, wrote that, for a Catholic, “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” We revere Scripture as an inerrant source of the teachings of Christ.
Rather, it means that we believe that it is “not sufficient ON ITS OWN to explain the fullness of divine revelation”. It needs an infallible interpreter to prevent error. In fact, Scripture itself does not, anywhere, say that it is to be the only guide to faith. Rather, it tells us that it is not a matter of private interpretation (the Epistle of Peter). It tells us that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles to guide the Church to all Truth.
Christ founded a Church, He didn’t write a book.
**
We are in agreement, but not for the same reasons: “not sufficient ON ITS OWN to explain the fullness of divine revelation.” Why? Romans 1 tells us that all are without excuse because the creations reveals Gods attributes…I’ll let it speak for itself.

Romans 1 “because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse”…“although they know the ordinance of God”

Romans 2 “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,”

So there is “general revelation” and then “special or divine” revelation, which is the Scripture. Beyond that; there is no other revelation, nor does there need to be or else God would have given more…right?

2 timothy 3:10-17 (for context) Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, persecutions, {and} sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium {and} at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed {from bad} to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned {them,} and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Of course we all are familiar with this passage; Catholic tend to use this as proof that not everything is there because of the word “profitable”.
And John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself *would not contain the books that *would be written. Catholics use this to also show that there is more, but if you look at the passage; it talks about the things He DID; not SAID. If you think of all the miracles and banishment of illness; it would take a lot of writing to get all the details…agree?

There are more passages used as well, but the main one seems to be 2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.” First the letters were written to church(s) in the area(s) Paul ministered; he obviously expected the people would understand what was written; it is understood because the Holy Spirit indwells true believers and guides them to truth; at the individual level. Also, notice he mentions what he wrote; which we know a great deal of the NT is the Pauline epistles; so Scripture was already being written just not organized into what we now know as the Bible.

The question now becomes; what are these traditions that already existed? We don’t know; so either they are already in Scripture or we do not need to know. But you cannot make the claim that these traditions are part of the Catholic Church because they already existed and Scripture does not tell us one way or the other exactly what Paul referred to. Any extra revelation fro the Church would have to be proven to come from divine origin; which it cannot prove via Scripture; unless you impose upon what the Scripture teaches.

Therefore; “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance”

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
All things are in reference to the things of God; for example the gospel.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me”

John 16 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth;”

The point is that it is the Holy Spirit that indwells individual believers and guides them to the truth. I could touch a dozen or so more to make the same point. It is not entrusted to a religion, but to the individual who has received the Holy Spirit; that’s it-no exceptions or additions. Read Psalm 19 and it will drill it into your souls the truth I refer to written in Scripture.**
 
If this teaching:

was, or is, NOT WRITTEN, how did you discover it?

(Edited for length)

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
The same way I learned about the bible being inspired - it was taught as part of my Catholic education. I later in life went back on my own and researched the church writings on the matter and looked at the histories to get deeper insights of the theology behind it. I also came to see the scripture support for it as well.

Since the bible does not tell us in writing that it is inspired how did YOU come to believe it is inspired and inerrant? Who taught you?

I don’t know why you reference the Bereans since they were Jews who LISTENED to Paul’s teachings FIRST - then went back to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures to see how Paul’s new Christian teachings compared to what was prophesied. They knew in their hearts that he spoke the truth and only went back to written word to confirm word by word what he had said since it was profound. Of course they came to believe what Paul SAID was inspired because the OT prophesied the new Good News that Paul ORALLY CONVEYED to the Bereans. We don’t have a “Letter to the Bereans” now do we? NO the Bereans came to believe based on the SPOKEN word that agreed with the partial truth that they already held true. This alone proves that true believers did not use a sola scriptura teaching - but rather believed on the integrity of the person who spoke God’s Word ORALLY and on how it appealed to both reason and to known OT written word - WHICH ALSO HAD A WELL ESTABLISHED ORAL TRADITION TEACHING WITH IT. A fact a lot of Protestant forget. In fact, in Paul’s day Oral Teaching was THE NORM since people could not mostly read and write they had highly developed listening skills and were much more developed that most of us are in remembering spoken words.

James
 
And why would we want to change the case of Catholic to little c just to suit your beliefs Tanner? The early church fathers made it clear where the universal church was - where the bishops are. Do you follow an apostolic bishop Tanner?

The early church followed Catholic Bishops - why don’t you?
I follow Christ; you follow Bishops; glad we have that established in your own words.
See that ye all follow the bishop*, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and **bishop of the Catholic Church **which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).
“…to be in honour however with the **Catholic Church **for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).
See my prior links: “BRING THE CHILDREN TO ME”.
Why does Tanner’s salvation depend on the intellectual maturity of the Christian? Does God condemn the adults with the mental capacity of children or adults who suffer brain damage or stroke etc. and loss of reasoning capacity to hell? 🤷
**I asked for one verse and this is what you bring to the table? You must be having a bad day.

The only reason people go to hell is rejecting the gospel or rejecting general revelation as Romans 1 and 2 explain. Therefore; someone who does not have that capacity would be in heaven.**
 
My my - you bounce all over the theology board like a whack a mole automata when you run headlong into solid arguments that refute your position don’t you? That’s not a sign of a stalwart soldier of Christ but somone who is dancing around and unable to defend his faith.

Your conclusions of course are illogical and - besides its not what the historical church ever believed. The Church baptised entire households all at one time.

More here:
Infant Baptism In Scripture

Infant Baptism in Church History - ECFs

Anything else you want to try to quick-draw and slap iron with us on Tanner? 😃

James
**The only possible hint of infant baptism in the Bible that you could point to is that the whole household of the Philippian jailer was baptized in Acts 16:33. However, the context nowhere mentions infants. Acts 16:31 declares that salvation is by faith. Paul spoke to all of the household in verse 32, and the whole household believed (verse 34). This passage only supports the baptism of those who have already believed, it is impossible for infants to make that choice. **
 
Tanner … Can you refute these scriptural and historical links ?

Let us never hear you raise this issue again— as one of your Top 10 beefs about what Catholics teach wrongly.
**This is what you must resort to; sad, very sad. Each on of those versus could easily be broken down; but it would not make a difference to you. I also, noticed an error.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.”

I don’t know a Protestant that teaches that, but it seems like Catholic theology to me.
The context or logic is incorrect; the focus is as it should be; is on whether one believes or does not believe. For the statement to be correct it woould have to say “He who does not believe and not baptized will be condemned” Te reason it doesn’t say it is if you believe and that belief is true you are baptized by the holy Spirit, but if you are not a believer, than you are condemned and the implication is that a non-believer does not have the Holy Spirit; therefore no need to mention baptism in thesecond part of the passage and is consistent with Scripture.

Not all manuscripts contain verse 16, but doesn’t really matter because you have to take the whole of Scripture and what it teaches. I have already pointed out that the one verse that John the Baptist made contained 3 types of baptisms in one single verse; everyone of course refuses to acknowledge it, because it is so clear, what can you say? It is not there! Baptism by the Holy Spirit is the true baptism; water baptism is and outward profession of the inward faith in Christ; symbolizing our unity in His death, burial and resurrection.**
 
**The only possible hint of infant baptism in the Bible that you could point to is that the whole household of the Philippian jailer was baptized in Acts 16:33. However, the context nowhere mentions infants. Acts 16:31 declares that salvation is by faith. Paul spoke to all of the household in verse 32, and the whole household believed (verse 34). This passage only supports the baptism of those who have already believed, it is impossible for infants to make that choice. **
OK - let’s turn it around. Prove that your Protestant theology of denying the children baptism is in the bible. Where is the verse that contradicts Jesus commandment “BRING THE CHILDREN TO ME!”???

You can’t refute what is not written Tanner. So why are you fabricating out of thin-air new non-biblical teachings and talking out of both sides of your mouth in a teaching that is not biblical? NO WHERE does the bible so DO NOT BAPTISE CHILDREN. Yet TANNER insists we take Tanner’s word over sacred tradtion and listen to him.

James
 
**

it is impossible for infants to make that choice.

**
Duh ! Which these links clearly point out to you. Therefore, the parents made the calls for their young children. A decision welcomed by our Lord.

Many an adult has been baptized BEFORE they received H.S. [at a later point in life].

So, don’t make the argument that infants and young children must make their own decision apart from their parents.

Christ taught we must be born of water [FIRST], then born of H.S.[second]. I agree that scripture does teach in several cases the USUAL order was reversed.
 
Since the bible does not tell us in writing that it is inspired how did YOU come to believe it is inspired and inerrant? Who taught you?
Hi James,
I came from a family of Baptists who taught that Scripture is inspired and inerrant. But I stopped believing that by the time I was about 15 years old and began drifting into major rebellion against my parents and against God, and started to embrace atheism.
I don’t know why you reference the Bereans since they were Jews who LISTENED to Paul’s teachings FIRST - then went back to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures to see how Paul’s new Christian teachings compared to what was prophesied. They knew in their hearts that he spoke the truth and only went back to written word to confirm word by word what he had said since it was profound. Of course they came to believe what Paul SAID was inspired because the OT prophesied the new Good News that Paul ORALLY CONVEYED to the Bereans. We don’t have a “Letter to the Bereans” now do we? NO the Bereans came to believe based on the SPOKEN word that agreed with the partial truth that they already held true. This alone proves that true believers did not use a sola scriptura teaching - but rather believed on the integrity of the person who spoke God’s Word ORALLY and on how it appealed to both reason and to known OT written word - WHICH ALSO HAD A WELL ESTABLISHED ORAL TRADITION TEACHING WITH IT. A fact a lot of Protestant forget. In fact, in Paul’s day Oral Teaching was THE NORM since people could not mostly read and write they had highly developed listening skills and were much more developed that most of us are in remembering spoken words.
I read it very differently. Although I’m not at all opposed to the crucial role of church tradition, I believe that there is a very good reason why the Bereans were called “more noble” for searching the Scriptures to see if the oral teaching was true. It seems to me that if anything, today, more than ever, we ought to judge what we are told by the authority of Scripture.
 
What does a catholic need to do to increase their possible of getting into heaven when the die ???
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, so it is THE WAY to get to heaven because that is why Jesus built it.
 
**

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized.** There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.”

.
Scripture covers ALL possibilities. That would include adults with reasoning abilities, the mentally retarded, young children with partial insights/understandings, and infants w/o any reasoning.

Does your verse above cover ALL situations ? We might say No, – what about the young, retarded, or insane ? But Mark 16:16 does cover normal adult situations & those who get Baptism w/o true intentions of following Christ’s teachings.

So, what about other scriptures that cover the infants/children & the mentally deficient ? CFJ gave them to you, & we have the Church’s tradition that allows Baptism in such cases … based upon the faith of the Parents. Later, when that individual is old enough to speak for themselves, they can reject their parent’s will and refuse/reject the second necessity (spiritual rebirth). Christ always allows an individual to speak for themselves via free will, unless circumstances preclude it — like mental retardation and very young ages [where the faith of the parents / godparents / guardians are acceptible to God].

Man baptizes with water, but it is Christ who annoints with the H.S. So, in ALL cases, if faith is present [reasoning individual or parental sponsorship] … Christ has promised to do his part // sealing via Spirit whomever man washes with water using his valid Trinitarian commands.

Many Protestants don’t accept the sponsorship of the Parents/Guardians … and would simply say that All children & mentally retarded go to heaven. However, history teaches the early Church believed that faith sponsorship of parents / guardians was essential. Jewish peoples knew they were to circumcise their infants on 8th day … to seal them to God. Catholic beliefs have remained faithfully consistent with the Early Church practices/beliefs.
 
What is the Church’s interpretation of John 5:24? Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” If someone has passed from death into life, why would he worry about not making it to heaven?
 
OK - let’s turn it around. Prove that your Protestant theology of denying the children baptism is in the bible. Where is the verse that contradicts Jesus commandment “BRING THE CHILDREN TO ME!”???

You can’t refute what is not written Tanner. So why are you fabricating out of thin-air new non-biblical teachings and talking out of both sides of your mouth in a teaching that is not biblical? NO WHERE does the bible so DO NOT BAPTISE CHILDREN. Yet TANNER insists we take Tanner’s word over sacred tradtion and listen to him.

James
**James it is very simple; but you do not have eyes to see or ears to hear. To be saved one must believe on the Lord Jesus with a true heart, not a professed heart, of repentance. Put you faith in Jesus, and one will receive forgiveness through God’s grace; you will be saved from the wrath to come.

Can a infant or child do that? No! Is there anything in Scripture where infants and children were being Baptised by Jesus? No, by apostles, no by John the Baptist, no. To say otherwise is to impose on the text of Scripture and to deny that being able to believe on the Lord is the way of justification.

That list you sent is so chuck full or errors; that is no wonder you are confused about the simple message of salvation. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Jesus doesn’t complicate things; man does.**
 
What is the Church’s interpretation of John 5:24? Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” If someone has passed from death into life, why would he worry about not making it to heaven?
The Church would say that the words “hears My word and believes Him” means hearing ALL that is being said and believes ALL of what is being taught. There are over 35,000 verses in the bible and it is not sufficient to just pick and choose single proof-texts or attempt versation to limit other parts of scripture. All verses have to be taken together holistically - just as Jesus as Living Word of God must be taken all together as One Divine God and not divided against Himself by His own words (which is impossible).

‘To much that is given much is expected’ (Luke 12:48) and we are given very much in the Divine Promise - an Eternity in the Words of Life that Christ gave us. A child is held only to a fundamental trust and belief in God through the teachings its parents give it and in the faith that is given it as a gift and a promise through The Church to its parents custodianship. But as The Holy Spirit does His sanctifying works in that Child, that small seed of faith is growing and teaching (supernaturally as well as intellectually) and even the most limited of infants or the mentally incapacitated or handicapped are hearing spiritual truths. Ever notice how infants alone in their cribs will suddenly spontaneously smile as they come into some “awareness” about themselves or their environment and have happy thoughts?

So as a person matures in the faith and is taught (by hearing spiritually and by oral teaching of The Church or parents representing The Church) they are held progressively to the more advanced teachings (ref. 1 Cor 3:2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Hebrews 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant..) But this is not an expectation in a harsh sense but it is that “light-yoke” that Christ promised as He desires that we contribute to cooperating with his mightier work so we can learn to pull with him (it’s a double yoke) in step on our way to The Promised Land and “be all we can be spiritually”. God is perfect and wants His children to strive to be perfect to. There is only One Way called “The Way” and that is: ( John 14:6) * "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.* And Jesus has chosen to use His Church as the means by which people are brought to Him. After all it was The Church that Jesus was referring to when He gave the great commission: *(Matthew 28:19-20) go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey **everything *I have commanded you.

We are to be taught EVERYTHING - and “belief” means to not only believe but to live (“do”) (Matthew 4:4) on every word that comes from the mouth of God..

The bottom line is that one must believe as one knows Christ and that also means obedience to every word Christ gave to the best of our abilities to comprehend and understand those teachings for whatever station in life we are at knowing full well that we are called to * (Matthew 5:48) ‘be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect’. And we know that this is impossible without grace but * (2 Cor 12:9 ) “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” The key here is understanding that Christ normatively gives us His Grace through the sacraments of The Church - which is His Body as well as His Bride.

Grace is of the same essence of Divine Perfection and its nature is to do spiritual works to perfect and do God’s will and return to God with dividends. It is what sanctifies and brings us to eternal Glory. The Word is integrative with this sanctifying grace and it only comes through HEARING and being TAUGHT. The Church is a vital part of this and can not be seperated from Christ - where Christ is so are His People - His Church.

James
 
Scripture covers ALL possibilities. That would include adults with reasoning abilities, the mentally retarded, young children with partial insights/understandings, and infants w/o any reasoning.

Does your verse above cover ALL situations ? We might say No, – what about the young, retarded, or insane ? But Mark 16:16 does cover normal adult situations & those who get Baptism w/o true intentions of following Christ’s teachings.

**So, what about other scriptures that cover the infants/children & the mentally deficient ? CFJ gave them to you, & we have the Church’s tradition that allows Baptism in such cases … based upon the faith of the Parents. Later, when that individual is old enough to speak for themselves, they can reject their parent’s will and refuse/reject the second necessity (spiritual rebirth). Christ always allows an individual to speak for themselves via free will, unless circumstances preclude it — like mental retardation and very young ages [where the faith of the parents / godparents / guardians are acceptible to God].

Man baptizes with water, but it is Christ who annoints with the H.S. So, in ALL cases, if faith is present [reasoning individual or parental sponsorship] … Christ has promised to do his part // sealing via Spirit whomever man washes with water using his valid Trinitarian commands.

Many Protestants don’t accept the sponsorship of the Parents/Guardians … and would simply say that All children & mentally retarded go to heaven. However, history teaches the early Church believed that faith sponsorship of parents / guardians was essential. Jewish peoples knew they were to circumcise their infants on 8th day … to seal them to God. Catholic beliefs have remained faithfully consistent with the Early Church practices/beliefs.**

That is as foolish as one can get IMO; that would be like saying the parents with faith imparts their setting before God to the child; which would mean that the parent who does not believe and has a child that dies or has a mentally disabled child; those who cannot make a decision one way or another will perish to hell.

Theological nonsense. This is one of the gross errors of the many on that list; it is as though they are making things up as they go and then have to write a book to explain it all.

If you understand God’s nature and understand what condemns people to hell; the issue resolves itself. People go to hell for rejecting the revelation that they have been given, whether general (i.e creation & conscience) and/or divine; since an infant, toddler, mentally deficient persons cannot make those choices; they will not be in hell; so by default they would be in heaven. We do you think the Church invented Limbo; then had to write a book to explain it; those poor grieving parents who children were not sprinkled; that died.
 
What is the Church’s interpretation of John 5:24? Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” If someone has passed from death into life, why would he worry about not making it to heaven?
I wish you Godspeed and pray you have the patience of Job; you will need it. They do not understand the Scripture in even the smallest detail as you can already see from the posts you are now getting IMO; so just be patient, don’t take the personal attacks personally; kind of like Father forgive them for they do not know what they say. Also, don’t expect to much Scriptural depth and a lot of contextual errors and a lot of miscellaneous Catholic material and Early Church Father snippets.

However; if you are wanting to know more about the Catholic Church, some of its members, and its view on Scripture, its view on the early church, its view of it own theology, then you will learn a whole bunch. They will give you some rabbit trails to follow, which are good for getting more into the Catholic writings in certain aspects of their faith and you will gain more understanding concerning their theology. I learn more from the rabbit trails, than just looking through the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is also good in your own study of the Bible; it will move it up a notch or two; which is a real blessing.

If you expect to evangelize; that is against the forum rules; they are allowed to evangelize you because you are on their turf.

So enjoy your stay and stay away from direct and hostile personal attacks on persons or the Church; as you will be reported to the administrator and could be thrown out of CAF all together. They will warn you when you reach the line or cross it; the members will tell you. If or when that happens, the best thing to do is remove yourself from the thread altogether or stay away for a few days to regain yourself and learn from your mistakes.

I hope you are blessed and enjoy your time here and may God bless you and keep you!

Tanner
 
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