How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[CentralFLJames]

That is as foolish as one can get IMO; that would be like saying the parents with faith imparts their setting before God to the child; which would mean that the parent who does not believe and has a child that dies or has a mentally disabled child; those who cannot make a decision one way or another will perish to hell.

Theological nonsense. This is one of the gross errors of the many on that list; it is as though they are making things up as they go and then have to write a book to explain it all.

If you understand God’s nature and understand what condemns people to hell; the issue resolves itself. People go to hell for rejecting the revelation that they have been given, whether general (i.e creation & conscience) and/or divine; since an infant, toddler, mentally deficient persons cannot make those choices; they will not be in hell; so by default they would be in heaven. We do you think the Church invented Limbo; then had to write a book to explain it; those poor grieving parents who children were not sprinkled; that died.

Ridiculous theology? Honestly, have you ever studied theology or comparative religions? 1.2 billion Catholics do not think its ridiculous and ALL Protestants used to believe in original sin - and I think most still do - but many are falling further away from Christian teaching with each new generation (the typical whithering effects of sin on reason and morality - what anathema does).

You seem to doubt one of the most fundamental teachings of Christianity. You don’t believe the teachings of the early Christian church? You don’t believe that we are ALL corrupted and in a fallen-nature right out of the womb? You don’t believe that original sin is an inherited eternal offense against God that essentially damaged our original human nature and relationally alienated us from God? Wow, this is what the ENTIRE bible is all about - telling us how God has a way to not only restore our human nature and our relationship to “create all things new again” but to ELEVATE our nature to be Christ-Like. This original sin created by our first parents, Adam and Eve, becomes through the power of God a greater good. God could have elected to obliterate the human race for this original transgression. But He did not. He permitted the falling away to happen in accord with His decision to trust humans with His gift of human freewill (which was the risk of giving us this gift). But in His Omniscience He knew if we elected wrongly and abused our freewill a greater good would still come from it. God could not lose either way and it was all to reveal His Son in the material world so that God could glorify His Son and manifest His Lord of all that is seen and unseen - heaven and hell and earth (e.g. the material dimension as well as the spiritual). Pssst, its ALL ABOUT JESUS. That’s why we are even here - we are just participants in His Glory - a glory He wishes to share with us as His inherited children.

Have you not heard or yet perceived that Adam’s sin earned us a Redeemer from sin and death? (Gen. 3:15) From the Catholic Mass on Holy Saturday we use in our liturgy the ancient Christian rejoicing prayer: “Oh happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!” As a result of original sin, we need Jesus Christ as our ONLY hope to restore us from our fallen nature. Without restoration we perish in hell. But just as our parents CHOSE through freewill to rebel we must EACH CHOSE to OBEY Christ to be restored to eternal life. Adam’s original sin gave God the opportunity to share His Only Son with us. Christ’s victory over sin won us more blessings than those lost through Adam’s sin (CCC 420). In the words of St. Paul*, “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.”* [Rom 5:20] God worked through Adam’s sin for our greater good and His Glory.

It is normative that one MUST be baptised to gain eternal beatitude - scripture is VERY clear about this. It is not a mere symbolic act is is a sacramental act that God co-joins as if by marriage to us - we literally become supernaturally marked as “His” and our soul is reconfigured and made suitable for the Holy Trinity to take residence in us (literally). But if we sin gravely God will leave and won’t come back unless we repent again and do penance (real tears and real spiritual sorrow). As for the unbaptised children - this is a thing that we trust that God will provide in ways compatible with His Justice. We place them entirely in God’s Mercy and Trust in Him to “do the right thing”. Catholics are free to believe in a few things here: 1) God performs some supernatural baptism and brings them into beatitude to degree that only He knows or 2) God has a special state for them (we have called it “limbo” in the past) where unbaptised infants may abide for eternity that we hope is paradisaical with respect to “natural man” but is probably not in beatitude with God where the infants live in communion with God and share in His beatific vision. 3) Early saints believed that unbaptised infants did go to hell but sufffered the least of all. We hope for the best of these children - but its all theological speculation.

That said, you seem to not grasp the radical transformational change that takes place in a baptized Christian. We are mere animal-like natural humans out of the womb and while our souls are immortal they are not of the divine nature and lacking the proper divine nature could not suffer the spiritual pain of being in heaven for even a moment. We would feel inadequate before such holiness as God and the angels and be shamed and try to hide from God as Adam did when He sinned in the Garden and felt naked before God. But in baptism one is radically elevated from a human natural soul to a divine-human soul (just like Jesus’) and this soul is MADE to live in eternity with God and not feel inadequate - IF we keep it clean and don’t re-corrupt it in more sin. This is why the sacrament of reconciliation is available for forgiveness after committing grave post-baptismal sins and why The Church is such a gift from God.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

As a follow up to my last post I want to say that a mere sola-fide belief that does not cooperate with Christ by OBEDIENCE in all he taught is inadequate for salvation. This Protestant theology is nothing but a scant fig-leaf and will NOT cover over the sins that shine out like bright crimson before the all-seeing God. Just as God saw Adam when tried to hide in the garment of the garden foliage and foolishly tried to cover-over his shame with the fig-leaf God will also see the sins of men who try to hide behind a thin veneer fashioned by the theological skins of man. NO - this will not work. Christ’s blood is not a covering to be worn it is a Divine cleansing agent to be used to wash our souls with.

There is only one remedy to sin. SIN must be REMOVED utterly from every hidden crevice and dark spot of the soul. Sin can not be merely covered and hidden from God on the outside - one must be utterly clean in and out to enter heaven. And this is what Christ has won for us - His utter removal and purgation of sin from our souls. This is a REAL elevation in our human nature and a real holiness that comes from grace that will stay with us for eternity if we do not again disgrace ourselves. Yet, even if we do fall into the mire of sin after baptism, Christ will AGAIN and AGAIN (70 times 7 times) wash our feet (small sins) and our hearts from the deadly sin that mere prayer wil not remove (e.g. grave sin: 1 John 5:16 ‘There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that…’) every time we come back to bath in his healing forgivness through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That is, provided we truly desire to repent and cooperate through penance and solemn prayer.
*
Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Luke 1:77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 18:18 18"Truly I say to you[sup]1[/sup], whatever you[sup]1[/sup] bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you[sup]1[/sup] loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

John 20:22-23 And when He had said this, He breathed on them[sup]1[/sup] and said to them[sup]1[/sup], “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you[sup]1[/sup] forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you[sup]1[/sup] retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Note[sup]1[/sup] - The Apostolic Authority (given only to those hand picked by Jesus and their successors)
*

Bottom Line:
One must normatively be baptised and one MUST then also remain free of sin or else be forgiven again of each and every grave post-baptismal sins through the apostolic authority. God is not limited to the sacraments but this is the normative way and the ONLY way man can have any assurances that they are in a state of grace before God and be confident in their salvation . Merely saying “I believe” but not believing to the degree where one is obedience and by assuming God forgives you of your sins is putting God to the Test. It does not give God the consideration or opportunity to be generous or to refuse and say “No - I desire to forgive you but you have not repented nor done penance and are insincere to Me”. Assuming God forgives you is forcing your own private judgement on God and making yourself God; and that is nothing but a mere fig-leaf of hubris that will always appear shameful before God.

James

 

[moondweller]

Have you not heard or yet perceived that Adam’s sin earned us a Redeemer from sin and death? (Gen. 3:15) From the Catholic Mass on Holy Saturday we use in our liturgy the ancient Christian rejoicing prayer: “Oh happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!” As a result of original sin, we need Jesus Christ as our ONLY hope to restore us from our fallen nature.

This is convoluted, to say the least.

Without restoration we perish in hell.

Without true belief in Christ alone you perish in Hell.

But just as our parents CHOSE through freewill to rebel we must EACH CHOSE to OBEY Christ to be restored to eternal life.

You must chose to believe the gospel message concerning Christ FOR eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24). Adam and Eve never had eternal life, nor do their offspring. You can’t “restore” something that one never possessed in the first place.

Adam’s original sin gave God the opportunity to share His Only Son with us.

Gave God the opportunity??? This is soooo perverted.

Christ’s victory over sin won us more blessings than those lost through Adam’s sin (CCC 420).

It certainly has given some of us (we who have believed) the personal understanding of His infinite GRACE toward us in and through the Person and sacrificial work of His only begotten Son, for our salvation. And the riches of His infinite GRACE He’ll demonstrate toward us, who have believed, for all the ages to come (see Eph. 2:5-7, this is called “eternal security”). But let’s not turn Adam into some kind of hero. Thanksgiving and glory goes to God through Jesus Christ alone.

In the words of St. Paul, “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.” [Rom 5:20] God worked through Adam’s sin for our greater good and His Glory.

No, God worked through Jesus Christ, the “Last Adam” for our good and to His Glory.

 

[Tanner9188]

Ridiculous theology? Honestly, have you ever studied theology or comparative religions? 1.2 billion Catholics do not think its ridiculous and ALL Protestants used to believe in original sin - and I think most still do - but many are falling further away from Christian teaching with each new generation (the typical whithering effects of sin on reason and morality - what anathema does).

It is not an issue of original sin nature; this is why no one comes to God on their own. The issue is whether Jesus sacrifice is sufficient to remove all sin, past, present, future & original sin, if you will. Quit distorting what I have said; i know it is your nature, but try to refrain yourself.

EDITED EXTRANEOUS WRITING

its ALL ABOUT JESUS. That’s why we are even here - we are just participants in His Glory - a glory He wishes to share with us as His inherited children.

**Wow, we agree on something…Praise God! If you look closely at the High Priestly Prayer and combine that with themes in Romans; you will see we are secondary and true believers, the elect, the called of God, are “love gifts” from the Father to the Son and in the end; the Son will take the entire redeemed church and present the church back to the Father for eternal praise and Glory. It is going to be glorious for the ones that have the simple gospel correct and horrible for those that don’t.
**

EDITED AGAIN

It is normative that *one MUST be baptised to gain eternal beatitude *- scripture is VERY clear about this. It is not a mere symbolic act is is a sacramental act that God co-joins as if by marriage to us - we literally become supernaturally marked as “His” and our soul is reconfigured and made suitable for the Holy Trinity to take residence in us (literally).

**Which baptism?

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. "

So which baptism are you referring; here is a list of 3 types and only one saves and one is symbolic and the other is the future judgment. So which Baptism do you refer; if you get it wrong, then you have the gospel wrong IMO.

Did not Jesus say come to me as you are in so many words?
Matthew 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.”**

But if we sin gravely God will leave and won’t come back unless we repent again and do penance (real tears and real spiritual sorrow). As for the unbaptised children - this is a thing that we trust that God will provide in ways compatible with His Justice. We place them entirely in God’s Mercy and Trust in Him to “do the right thing”. Catholics are free to believe in a few things here: **That’s special ** 1) God performs some supernatural baptism and brings them into beatitude to degree that only He knows or 2) God has a special state for them (we have called it “limbo” in the past) where unbaptised infants may abide for eternity that we hope is paradisaical with respect to “natural man” but is probably not in beatitude with God where the infants live in communion with God and share in His beatific vision. 3) Early saints believed that unbaptised infants did go to hell but sufffered the least of all. We hope for the best of these children - but its all theological speculation.

See there are only two places; heaven and hell according to Scripture, according to Catholic theology there seems to be at least 4 places; perhaps more that I am unaware of; heaven, hell, purgatory and limbo. :banghead:

That said, you seem to not grasp the radical transformational change that takes place in a baptized Christian. EDITED AGAIN

This is why the sacrament of reconciliation is available for forgiveness after committing grave post-baptismal sins and why The Church is such a gift from God.James

In response to blue: You seem to have a memory lapse; I have given my testimony in this regards. What happen to the Christian that did not receive water baptism? Do you not get a transformed life?

In response to the purple: Jesus is sufficient in all manners concerning the forgiveness of all sins…period. :knight1:

 

[Tanner9188]

As a follow up to my last post I want to say that a mere sola-fide belief that does not cooperate with Christ by OBEDIENCE in all he taught is inadequate for salvation. This Protestant theology is nothing but a scant fig-leaf and will NOT cover over the sins that shine out like bright crimson before the all-seeing God. Just as God saw Adam when tried to hide in the garment of the garden foliage and foolishly tried to cover-over his shame with the fig-leaf God will also see the sins of men who try to hide behind a thin veneer fashioned by the theological skins of man. NO - this will not work. Christ’s blood is not a covering to be worn it is a Divine cleansing agent to be used to wash our souls with.

There is only one remedy to sin. SIN must be REMOVED utterly from every hidden crevice and dark spot of the soul. Sin can not be merely covered and hidden from God on the outside - one must be utterly clean in and out to enter heaven. And this is what Christ has won for us - His utter removal and purgation of sin from our souls. This is a REAL elevation in our human nature and a real holiness that comes from grace that will stay with us for eternity if we do not again disgrace ourselves. Yet, even if we do fall into the mire of sin after baptism, Christ will AGAIN and AGAIN (70 times 7 times) wash our feet (small sins) and our hearts from the deadly sin that mere prayer wil not remove (e.g. grave sin: 1 John 5:16 ‘There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that…’) every time we come back to bath in his healing forgivness through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That is, provided we truly desire to repent and cooperate through penance and solemn prayer.
*
Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church*, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Luke 1:77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 18:18 18"Truly I say to you[sup]1[/sup], whatever you[sup]1[/sup] bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you[sup]1[/sup] loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

John 20:22-23 And when He had said this, He breathed on them[sup]1[/sup] and said to them[sup]1[/sup], “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you[sup]1[/sup] forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you[sup]1[/sup] retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Note[sup]1[/sup] - The Apostolic Authority (given only to those hand picked by Jesus and their successors)

Bottom Line:
One must normatively be baptised and one MUST then also remain free of sin or else be forgiven again of each and every grave post-baptismal sins through the apostolic authority. God is not limited to the sacraments but this is the normative way and the ONLY way man can have any assurances that they are in a state of grace before God and be confident in their salvation . Merely saying “I believe” but not believing to the degree where one is obedience and by assuming God forgives you of your sins is putting God to the Test. It does not give God the consideration or opportunity to be generous or to refuse and say “No - I desire to forgive you but you have not repented nor done penance and are insincere to Me”. Assuming God forgives you is forcing your own private judgement on God and making yourself God; and that is nothing but a mere fig-leaf of hubris that will always appear shameful before God.

James

If you understood sola fide; you would not make such comments. If you want the truth on this, then read this link. It is easy to follow and well written.
eefweb.org/sermons/topical/The%20Five%20Solas%20of%20the%20Reformation/Part%204%20-%20Sola%20Fide.htm

 

[CentralFLJames]

I wish you Godspeed and pray you have the patience of Job; you will need it. They do not understand the Scripture in even the smallest detail as you can already see from the posts you are now getting IMO;…

I hope you are blessed and enjoy your time here and may God bless you and keep you!

Tanner

Are you bootstrapping your own sock-puppet Tanner or training your new disciple?

Your cheekiness and hubris is rather amazing to most of us here. Do you really think you are even in the deep-end of the pool and swimming with the tremendous theological depth of scriptural insights that Catholics here on CAF are giving you? Really?

Since the hubris seems to be leaking into your snorkel let me be frank here. I and I’m sure other Catholics here find it very challenging to dialog with you as we wade through the hubris and your superficial level of scriptural understanding. We are trying hard not to come across as “talking down” to you but here you are trying to do just that to us. So you can imagine how peculiar your fundamentalist leaning musings seem to most of us. Yet, you are good test-case for exercising the virtue of patience and charity.

Listen, everyone must begin somewhere in their walk with The Lord. Even the heretics while condemned by the early Church were still prayer for – while there is life there is hope for all to come to God. So we Catholics here do our best to give you what we think you are ready to receive:

*1 Cor 3:2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it.

Hebrews 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. *

I invite you to consider that what you call “rabbit holes” are really an artifact of your own scatter-gun approach to shooting from the hip at all things Catholic. You target one thing and we answer you - then you swing to something else and keep shooting randomly all over the place like a kid on an open skeet-range with a case of ammo rather than focusing on one idea or concept-target at a time. If you want to learn - please stay focused on one thing at a time.

But you are right - we are not here to be taught Protestant theories or neo-Chrisian ideas that the apostles never taught and were unheard in the Catholic Church for 2,000 years. IMHO, you are wrapped around the axle so to speak on a very peculiar mixture of personal belief and a self-serving from the super-buffet table from the large combinatorial smorgasbord of pick-n-choose Protestant offerings. Heterodoxy is not religion - its a form anarchy - and disorder is the fingerprint of Satan.

As for personal attacks - all in all I think Catholics here have extended remarkable restraint. No one is perfect – especially me since I do tend towards St. Jeromes lack of patience for the unlearned who self-interpret scripture to their own destruction (ref: 2 Peter 3:16). But it is the very nature of all human pride that one can not see their own hypocrisy when making such judgements - you are as guilty as I or anyone else here Tanner.

So, as scripture says: Matthew 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” And let’s review what you have said so far - not to condemn you but to open your eyes to the hubris that is blinding you:

TANNER’S PITHY AND SELF-RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENTS

• Tanner Judgement1: I think I’ll stay away from the works-salvation
• Tanner Judgement2:Works are what your Church; are those rituals and traditions one must do to be in “effectual good standing” with God.
• Tanner Judgement3:There are only two types of religion in the entire world, the religion of human achievement and the religion of divine accomplishment. I choose the religion of divine accomplishment.
• Tanner Judgement4:From my own observations between Catholics, in the family and the neighborhood, and fundamentalist; it is the Catholic that win the sinful life outside behavior contest, IMObeservations
• Tanner Judgement5: If one does a Sacrament in hope to find favor by cooperating with God, then this is a graceless work.
• Tanner Judgement6:Since you have been taught that you must do these things in order to gain saving grace, then you do it from an unpure heart IMO. These tings are not in Scripture.
• Tanner Judgement7:I don’t even want to get into the early fathers; so esteemed by the Roman Catholic Church; the more I read of their writings, the more disgusted I get, but it does shed light on the evolution of anti-Jewish sentiment of the early through the 16th century Church and how one pope was so involved with Hitler
• Tanner Judgement8: The positions on marriage and celibacy, which many called a disease and adultery; yet while having concubines, and the scandals that continue to plague the church have always plagued the Church. Many calling the marital relationship a “venereal” sin; even with one’s spouse. I could never become of a Church with such baggage as this; and I really only touched the tip of the iceberg. I don’t see much of Christ in its historical past.
• Tanner Judgement9:No but I don’t need a Priest that has no power to forgive sins and is not Biblically defined either; probably living in greater sin than the one I would confess to;
• Tanner Judgement10:The acts of the past in Roman Catholic History are so bad; that it would violate some of the forum rules, but if you like I will be glad to send you some links, but if you are devout you are better off keeping your head in the sand IMO.
• Tanner Judgement11:Do you know that priests usurp the authority of the Father by pretending to have the ability to forgive sins; a priesthood that has no Biblical form.
• Tanner Judgement12:These are Romish invention and not supported by Scripture, “baptism by desire” Oh my God! 'a marty’s baptism" another Roman Church invention not found in all of Scripture.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued]

TANNER’s PITHY JUDGEMENTS CONTINUED

• Tanner Judgement13/Calumny1:to whom do you hold you alliance, the Word of God or elsewhere?
• Tanner Judgement14/Calumny2:James, in God’s sight a small lie is as grave as murder and the penalty is the same, which is death.
• Tanner Judgement15/Calumny3:Teach me; what do you do with passages like this (by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 {men} who forbid marriage {and advocate} abstaining from foods ) ? I don’t know of another “Christian religion”; that this applies to than yours IMO. I really don’t know; all I do know is whenever I come across this passage; Catholicism comes to mind; even before setting foot in this forum.
• Tanner Judgement16:Let me give you an example of how the Pope has usurped the authority reserved for the Holy Spirit.
• Tanner Judgement17:Off course by twisting that passage; rather than looking at the whole of Scripture, you have a succession and King Peter taking the place of Christ. It is no coincidence that Peter denied the Lord 3 times and the Lord asked him 3 times “do you love me”; … Where does purgatory, immaculate conception, perpetual virginity come into play in the gospel? It doesn’t; just another distraction away from the true redeemer IMO.
• Tanner Judgement18:I don’t expect to see any dead Popes [ed: in heaven]; however that is between them and God and whatever God does is just and good. I would like to see everyone in heaven.
• Tanner Judgement19:It [ed: Catholic teaching implied here] is the devils deception; IMO, since his best work is done at twisting Scripture just enough to change the message and hand over part of the divine merits to man. He has done this since the beginning and has infiltrated almost all churches.
• Tanner Judgment20/Ad-homenum1:I can’t believe; well yes I can, that you cannot see the usurping of the Holy Spirit [ed: in response to conveyance of Catholic teaching]. It doesn’t bother you as you rationalized away; like you do all of the truth of Scripture.
• Tanner Judgment21:I feel very sorry that you cannot see that over time the Pope’s authority and rule over Catholics Church only; has expanded and expanded till it evolved to the same authority and greater than Holy Spirit. I say greater because the Pope speaks “ex cathedra” and thus has the “imagined” ability to add to what God chose to reveal IMO.
• Tanner Judgement22:I ask [ed: user Holy Moly – why are you here] because you have no depth in your responses whatsoever.
• Tanner Judgment23:Ahh Purgatory; a real $$ maker in the 16th century. Now it is gambling and alcohol sales at festivals $$$$$.
• Tanner Judgement24:Re-sacrificing Christ over and over again; I can promise you is not pleasing to God; it is trampling the Son of God under foot IMO.
• Tanner Judgement25:Everyone here knows this is true. I do not think they make money on indulgences anymore; but they have found other creative and ungodly (IMO) ways of getting money. It is all around me here and sickens me to know they are raising money from beer and gambling.
• Tanner Judgement26 (indirect Calumny2):At least when some non-Catholic religion gets exposed; they are out of business and often in jail; you don’t have an institution [ed: indirect ref to Catholics Church] to hide behind, which protects the guilty at the expense of the innocent and cost millions, if not billions of dollars, to defend at the expense of the laity.
• Tanner Judgement27:Personally; IMO if not for the concept of purgatory, then the system [ed: backhanded reference to Catholic Church using indulgences to control people] would fall apart. It has served the Church well for many many years.
• Tanner Judgement28/CathoicIgnorance1: The pope claims to be the mediator between God and men with the power over souls in purgatory.
• Tanner Judgement28: James; your soul is in serious trouble at this point based on your theology and attitude; I invite you to know the Lord Jesus, but you must come to Him with a true heart of repentance on His terms; not yours.
• Tanner Judgement30:James; you don’t know what it is like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; I do and I thank God every single day for the privilege to serve Him.
• Tanner Judgement31:Seems to be a little difference here; God says one thing and your Church teaches something contradictory IMO.

[continued]
James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued]

TANNERS PITHY JUDGEMENTS CONTINUED

• Tanner Judgement32/PersonalTheology1 Your error is the believe in absolution from a priest and that the apostles had the power within themselves to forgive sin or bound sin; whereas the power is in the message, not the messenger.
• Tanner Judgement33:I follow Christ; you follow Bishops; glad we have that established in your own words.
• Tanner Judgment34:James it is very simple; but you do not have eyes to see or ears to hear. To be saved one must believe on the Lord Jesus with a true heart, not a professed heart, of repentance.
• Tanner Judgement35:[Why] do you think the Church invented Limbo; then had to write a book to explain it; those poor grieving parents who children were not sprinkled; that died. * Tanner Judgement36:do not understand the Scripture in even the smallest detail as you can already see from the posts you are now getting IMO…kind of like Father forgive them for they do not know what they say….Also, don’t expect to much Scriptural depth and a lot of contextual errors and a lot of miscellaneous Catholic material and Early Church Father snippets….They will give you some rabbit trails to follow…

Are you really sure you are saved bro?

Those who live in glass houses should not toss stones Tanner…that’s not in scripture but it is a good rule for the hypocrites and cowboy free-ranger Christians who live in their own fragile personal theology and do-it-your-own-way salvation churches should remember. Personally I think you are watching too many John Wayne and Cowboy and Indian movies…

James

 

[moondweller]

Are you really sure you are saved bro?

From what I see he’s written here on this thread (thanks for the quick recap), yes, he’s sure (and his confidence is in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone). He’s just not sure about you (based on what you’ve written).

 

[nuntym]

What is the Church’s interpretation of John 5:24? Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” If someone has passed from death into life, why would he worry about not making it to heaven?

Hmmm…I think how the Church understands what it means to believe in Jesus Christ comes from the Bible itself…in fact, from the same book of the Bible you quoted from itself:

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:36

 

[elvisman]

They were heretics or apostates or both or the writings are taken out of context; probably some of each…take your pick. You really have to push the envelope on twisting of Scripture to get purgatory out of those versus; especially in light of what the Bible teaches that contradicts the whole concept, but it is effective at keeping you on the edge of your seats for life IMO and observations.

The concept of purgatorial sufferings after death challenges the very work of Christ on our behalf. The Bible declares that “Christ himself. . .had died once for sins” (I Pet. 3:18, J.B.V.). There is no more need for further sufferings in purgatory. To demand further suffering and sacrifice is to deny that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient the first time! Jesus said that “he who hears my word. . .has life everlasting and does not come to judgment, but has passed from death to life” (Jn. 5:24, C.R.V.). The Bible also teaches that “if we acknowledge our sins, then God. . .will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong” (1Jn. 1:9, J.B.V.); that God remembers our sins no more (Heb. 10:17); that to die is gain, not torment (Phil. 1:21, 22); that to be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8, 9); and that those who die in Christ are blessed and receive rest from their labors and not excruciating pain (Rev. 14:13).

History: The doctrine of purgatory, instituted by Gregory I. (593 A.D.)
Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence. (1439 A.D.)

The pope claims to be the mediator between God and men with the power over souls in purgatory. However, the Bible contradicts this claim by stating that “For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus” (I Tim 2:5 J.B.V.)

Let the pure word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ stand!

Wait a minute. Do you mean to tell me that you consider the Early Fathers heretics? You consider **Clement of Alexandria,**Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, **John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan and Augustine heretics?? Turtullian and Origen later went into heresy. As for **their writings concerning Purgatory/final Purgation - they CERTAINLY are not taken out of context.

---

**As for Purgatory or ANY dogma - you don’t know your history. Dogmas are usually proclaimed when they are challenged or because of some heresy or other abuse. **

---

You’re quoting from the ridiculously, historically challeneged and highly debunked Lorraine Boettner with the dates you listed.
ALL of the Fathers I listed wrote about Purgatory BEFORE it was proclaimed by Gregory I.

---

Finally - as for your claim that you can’t fall into serious sin AFTER being born agaion - you are DEAD wrong and you deny free will. This is why the brilliant Protestant author C.S. Lewis acknowledged, "God’s mercy demands Purgatory."
Her is the Biblical PROOF that you are not eternally secure until AFTER death:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:26-27
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them**.
(This speaks directly to the Catholic teaching of invincible ignorance vs serious sin of a believer and/or apostasy.)

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified**"

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is convoluted, to say the least.

Ah, our highly opinionated brother Moondweller is back again.

Well this is not a surprising comment coming from you MD since your theology has always been expressed here at CAF as of the “Christian-lite” variety. So I can appreciate your preference for brevity in your terse comments. If your black-and-white opinionated world brings you comfort in the here and now that is one thing. But as I have always told you - until you can prove yourself to have more pedigree than the apostles and 2,000 years of Catholic teaching I doubt you will win any converts here.

BTW - I thought Catholic apologist John Martignoni fixed your wagon about 7 months ago (e.g. Bible Christian Society:Newsletter #106 (Martignoni Rebuts Moondweller) )? Or was that some other less infamous Moondweller? You do seem to be backsliding to your proclivity for pithy judgements and knee-jerk instinct to contradict all things Catholic.

Do you care to elaborate on why my comments are “convoluted”? I could not imagine somone objecting to being happy over having such a profound redeemer as Christ.

Without true belief in Christ alone you perish in Hell.

This is why we worry about you MD. We know that you think you have a true belief in Jesus and you have all these opinions about everyone else but you can’t have a true belief in Jesus while rejecting His Church. You heard His words: “Those that reject you reject Me and He who sent Me”. The Catholic Church have the apostolic succession. We have been through all this 100s off times before with you MD…

*CFLJames Quote: But just as our parents CHOSE through freewill to rebel we must EACH CHOSE to OBEY Christ to be restored to eternal life. *

You must chose to believe the gospel message concerning Christ FOR eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24). Adam and Eve never had eternal life, nor do their offspring. You can’t “restore” something that one never possessed in the first place.

Obeying Christ is BOTH **believing **AND obeying all that He told us - and somethings are not written in the Bible MD. When are you going to stop being disobedient and learn?

Adam and Eve most certainly did have eternal life - up to the point where they sinned. God does not create junk and man was made in God’s image and would never have been subject to spiritual death had he not sinned. The wages of sin are death. The wages of obedience are life. Your opinions are not biblical.

Also, note that I said that not only will God restore us to eternal life HE WILL ELEVATE our nature to make us better than Adam and Eve ever were - like Christ.

*CFLJames Quote: Adam’s original sin gave God the opportunity to share His Only Son with us. *

Gave God the opportunity??? This is soooo perverted.

Had man not fallen Christ would not have needed to suffer the indignity of taking on human flesh as Son of Man through the lineage of Man. He would have elected to stay on eternally in His 2nd Person as spirit and not taken flesh or else taken on transfigured flesh directly to reveal Himself.

The whole reason why Satan rebelled is because in his angelic intelligence he perceived that man, who is created vastly inferior to the nature of the angelic beings would fall and Christ would take on flesh out of His love for man. That was too much for his angelic pride since that meant angels would have to serve Jesus in the flesh and man too.

What is perverse here is that you can not see that God’s love for man was so great that he was willing to bring Glory to His Son through our failures - freewill is the thread of Divine Providence that God knits into His Plan through man’s choices - and Jesus is the golden thread that runs seamlessly through it all with His saints - and Mary too especially. Try to get past the bible-school view of the world MD and get on to the adult fare. A greater good and glory is revealed in how Jesus as the vine can take root in the tare fields of humanity and through a select seed of faith rise up and take over the entire field of error to overcome it and remake it into a new Garden. It is a cooperative work between God with fallen humans ( I no longer call you slaves but friends) who must sweat by their brow in new spiritual works with Christ (the light yoke) to till God’s new field and bring it to harvest. If you are not gathering you are scattering bro…

So yes, it can be rightfully said that Man’s choices are an opportunity arising through man’s poor choices for God to correct the error to reveal a greater Glory and to give witness through his creatures. Yes - opportunity and Divine Will married to man’s elective destiny. Try to get outside of your sandbox now and then to walk around MD and expand your insights. There is a lot more in scripture than the level 1 stuff and the human wisdom your reformer teachers are trying to get you to believe. But that is not true belief bro - is a fractionalized and deficient belief…

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from prior]

*CFLJames Quote: Christ’s victory over sin won us more blessings than those lost through Adam’s sin (CCC 420). *

It certainly has given some of us (we who have believed) the personal understanding of His infinite GRACE toward us in and through the Person and sacrificial work of His only begotten Son, for our salvation. And the riches of His infinite GRACE He’ll demonstrate toward us, who have believed, for all the ages to come (see Eph. 2:5-7, this is called “eternal security”). But let’s not turn Adam into some kind of hero. Thanksgiving and glory goes to God through Jesus Christ alone.

I see that you self-judge yourself as among the elect who “truly believe”. Does God have any choice in this MD? I hope you are - but since I know from prior dialog what you “True” beliefs are - I think you are on shaky ground with your private opinions about Christian beliefs.

How strange that you would take an expression “oh happy fault of Adam” as hero worship when the focus of the ejaculation is on the latter part “…that has won us so great a Redeemer!”. You have a strong judgemental personality to take umbrage with this. But this is your normal modus operandi - to criticize all things Catholic and the traditions and liturgies and the prayer that The Early Church has always held dear. This is just part of MD’s neo-Christian idiom - but we still love you anyway…

*CFLJames Quote: In the words of St. Paul, “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.” [Rom 5:20] God worked through Adam’s sin for our greater good and His Glory. *
No, God worked through Jesus Christ, the “Last Adam” for our good and to His Glory

You are very disagreeable today - did you have a bad weekend? Jesus was a descendent of Adam through David’s lineage. Therefor Adam’s sin was integrative with Christ being here and sin was turned against itself for a greater good. In essence Adam in eating the forbidden fruit planted the seed for The Tree of Life (the cross with Christ as the new salvific fruit - Eucharist) here on earth through God’s committed love for man and His own Son. God also worked through Mary in her great fiat “let it be done according to your word” to offset the sin of Eve and so we see the Divine Pattern of God’s cooperative work with man - no longer slaves to sin but friends. You don’t seem to see very much of the salvation picture MD. Again, you need to get out of your sandbox and walk around a bit - its a beautiful world out here and God is working through Jesus’s Divine-Human nature - God in the Flesh - a cooperate Divine work with man made possible through Mary .

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

It is not an issue of original sin nature; this is why no one comes to God on their own. The issue is whether Jesus sacrifice is sufficient to remove all sin, past, present, future & original sin, if you will. Quit distorting what I have said; i know it is your nature, but try to refrain yourself.

God calls all men to himself through prevenient grace. But those who are hardened in sin can not normally hear this call until that sin brings them to misfortune and sadness and man suffers and asks “why?”. That “why?” is God’s grace working through reason to show a cause and effect between sin and suffering and is what leads many to God.

The issue has NOTHING to do with if Jesus sacrifice is sufficient. NO ONE here doubts that a single drop of Divine Blood would have been sufficient to pay for every single human sinner to be purchased into heaven if God wanted obedient robots. Sufficiency is NOT in question here. What is at question is HOW WE ALLOCATE that redemptive grace won on the cross. The Church teaches that it is a free gift offered to ALL man - but IT MUST BE CLAIMED and it MUST NOT be thrown away like the Periodical’s Son quite nearly did and like Judas did. The Apostolic Church teaches that one allocates that grace by believing in Christ, Repenting and being Baptised into Christ’s Church. That’s principally all one needs to do if one does not sin again - BUT if one does not develop the disciplines of prayer, fasting, charity, avoidance of temptation, and regular worship and eating of the bread of life - most all will fall again back into repeated patterns of sin - which will lead directly to hell. This is why we Christ gave us the sacraments and the Church established its disciplines since the flesh is weak even though the spirit is willing. If one becomes disgraced literally through grave sin - one must AGAIN REPENT and confess sins. That is HOW we allocate grace. If you crack your clay pot - the grace you had is GONE until the potter re-fires that clay through confession, fills the crack with new clay and fills the vessel back with grace again. We have an endless treasury of grace but only one pot so to speak. Most everyone cracks their vessel and must be repaired many times in life till they become more disciplined and careful with their precious gift - the divine-human soul.

BTW - I have said NOTHING here that concerns you personally so I will ask YOU to please not distort what I have said. If you go back and read - you will see it is question - not an accusation. That’s what those “?” characters mean in the English language.

Wow, we agree on something…Praise God! If you look closely at the High Priestly Prayer and combine that with themes in Romans; you will see we are secondary and true believers, the elect, the called of God, are “love gifts” from the Father to the Son and in the end; the Son will take the entire redeemed church and present the church back to the Father for eternal praise and Glory. It is going to be glorious for the ones that have the simple gospel correct and horrible for those that don’t.

Agree - but there is only ONE visible Church here on earth and its The Catholic Church and all those others who are joined imperfectly to her through baptismal bond (which is a shared death in Christ as well as in His glory). It is God’s work to bring these others into full communion with The Church before they die or in that very instant of death since none can enter heaven outside of the arc of the Church.

**Which baptism?
So which baptism are you referring; here is a list of 3 types and only one saves and one is symbolic and the other is the future judgment. So which Baptism do you refer; if you get it wrong, then you have the gospel wrong IMO.
**

John’s baptism was NOT a spiritual baptism - but a preparatory motion to start people repenting of their sins. This was a common Jewish tradition - now and then prophets would arise and stir people to repent and rededicate themselves to God. John prepared the way for Christ and He also laid in the original teaching of “SALVATION” by the forgivness of sins. John could not forgive sin - he was symbolically washing away sins to teach the Jews what Christ would do to sin and how easily Christ could just Wash them away as if by water bath. You need to remember that a lot of the Jews DID NOT BELIEVE in a resurrection. SALVATION was ALL NEW TO MANY JEWS. They thought of deliverance from enemies in THE HERE and NOW. John the Baptist was starting to open their eyes to the wondrous possibility that Christ would change everything and bring not only temporal deliverance but ETERNAL SALVATION. This was profound to the Jew who the Sadducees were teaching - live a long life then die in peace never to rise again. But soon Jesus comes and reveals the glories joy that was hinted at in the Wisdom Literature - “In MY Fathers House are Many Mansions”.

There is nominally only one baptism - baptism by water and spirit combined in one sacrament - the water baptism Catholics give. We also have forms of the same thing - by desire and by blood (martyrs) that we assume God Himself administers supernaturally.

[cont]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Did not Jesus say come to me as you are in so many words?

Matthew 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.”

Yes we agree with this. But once you come to him you better have the lamp oil to go the distance or boom-boom out go the lights and you miss the bridegroom who comes like a theif in the night (when you die suddenly - most people’s 2nd comming of Christ).

See there are only two places; heaven and hell according to Scripture, according to Catholic theology there seems to be at least 4 places; perhaps more that I am unaware of; heaven, hell, purgatory and limbo.

This is true in the eschatological view. But in the making of Heaven on Earth we have a period where there are at least one other place called The Bosom of Abraham (the prison where Jesus taught those waiting heaven to be opened). As well when Christ died and rose we believe that God’s Mercy manifest purgatory as a final place for those who lack full sanctification to go before entry into heaven since nothing imperfect may enter heaven. It will be emptied and closed/removed at the 2nd comming. If limbo exists it is at heaven’s foyer or part of heaven - but one can not enter the eternal beatitude in this place since these natural human souls are not elevated to the Divine Nature.

In response to blue: You seem to have a memory lapse; I have given my testimony in this regards. What happen to the Christian that did not receive water baptism? Do you not get a transformed life?

In response to the purple: Jesus is sufficient in all manners concerning the forgiveness of all sins…period. :knight1:

The first generation Christians who were only baptised by John had to get a Trinitarian Baptism after Christ rose again or else they received the full indwelling at Pentecost - we don’t know what happened to each one obviously. We can trust that God did the right - any Christian follower would have have tremendous joy of hearing of Christ’s resurrection and would have been in close relations with the Church. I think it is safe to assume that Peter’s large baptism (3000) was part of this - formally getting the followers into the Church.

As for your “purple” comments - of course Jesus’ atonement is sufficient for all sin - but one MUST still REPENT and allocate that grace by being forgiven of sin. Sin is not automatically forgiven. Do you commit sin on the assumption its going to be automatically forgiven??? How do you know if Jesus accepted your repentance?

James

 

[brb2]

A question for Tanner and Md …

Are either of you two enjoying the Beatific life Christ promised to his elect ? If so, describe to the Catholics what a ‘blessed’ day in your life is like ?

Tanner complains the rules here @ CAF don’t allow Protestants to witness to their faith.
I thought I’d give you two the opportunity to describe your daily walk with the Lord to us

Present the reality of the Christ you know to us. Not theory, we want only the facts of Christ’s power and presence. Testify brothers !! Convince us you have the H.S. in a unique way — that Catholics do not.

Otherwise, drop all the hyperbole/braggadocio… and exhibit some gratitude for what you both are learning about the Church Christ founded.

 

[guanophore]

Can you tell me where in the bible we can find this teaching that, “There is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church”? I’m going to be amazed if the bible teaches that only people belonging to the ‘right religion’ are going to be saved!

There is only Bne Church.

There is only One Body.

The Body belongs to Christ, who is the Head.
.
There is no salvation in any other Name.

All who are saved are only saved through Christ, and Christ is One with His Body, the Church. It has nothing to do with a “right religion”.

Hi guanophore,

Not every false god that is worshiped as a god (an idol) is a single visible object. It is certainly possible that some people come very close to worshiping the Catholic Church.

I can certainly agree that not all idol’s are visible. However, I am confused about the worshipping of the Church. I am sorry, but I just don’t understand this.

 Of course it is also possible that some people come very close to worshiping other churches as well.  IMO, it is dangerous to have an inordinate desire and affection for ANY created thing.

This is certainly a spiritual risk.

There is honor, and esteem, then there is worship/adoration, which belongs only to God.

 

[guanophore]

What have I revealed about myself?

That you have come here to evangelize Catholics.

If you can easily discern and you do not warn them, then what love is that would allow someone to burn in hell?

With all due respect, you are not qualified to decide who at CAF is saved, and who is not.

if you are correct, then the person can examine themselves and still cry out to God for mercy....right?  I don't say things like that without careful consideration.  Hope you understand that as God is my witness; I do not say such things but out of love for a persons soul; it is a warning, not a condemnation, that is God's work.

You seem to presume that Catholics do not examine themselves, and cry out to God for mercy.

You don’t seem to realize that CAF is not provided as a venue for you to 'warn souls". If you wish to engage in this activity, I encourage you to start a forum where it is appropriate.

…which this forum refers to Protestants in this way with comments like “your own interpretation”; rather if you look at the history in the Bible and look at when Paul sent His letters to the churches he asked them to read them to all the brethren and also in some cases pass it along to other churches to be read.
The implication is that he expected that they would understand the meaning of the Word that was being read. Why? Because individuals who have the resident Truth Teacher will be able to discern the Word.

This is true, however, that resident Truth Teacher was given to the Apostolic Church, and is not going to “teach” someone a “truth” opposite of what He taught to them 1500 years before. Of course every individual should read and understand scripture for themselves. This will not contradict what He has already revealed to the Church.

In fact; that is the only way to be able to discern truth from error and on the more difficult passages; you must be all the more diligent and need godly shepherds to help discern the deeper things of God; it is a wonderful and life long experience and privilege.

Yes, and one that should not take place in separation from those who made it previously.

Water baptism; especially that of an infant cannot remove sin; it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is the true baptism that saves; water never saved anyone, nor does the Bible speak of removing original sin versus any other sin; sin is sin in god’s view.

The Apostles never separated water from the Baptism of the HS. Of course one needs both in order to be born again of Water and Spirit. Mud never healed anyone’s blindness, either, but Jesus can do amazing things with mud, water, wine, and bread.

Original sin is categorically different than personal sin.

 there are 3 types of Baptism mentioned here in this one passage.  Johns, spirit, and fire (judgment).  But I'm almost certain you cannot see that nor understand the differences; yet it is basic to Scripture, but many don't get it IMO and observations.

is very humble of you to make such an observation. And it is made with such compassion.

 

[Ignatius]

** If you want the truth on this,. . . . **

Actually, as Scripture clearly says, The Church is the Pillar and foundation of Truth. So the Truth is found in The Church that Jesus Christ founded. So do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you are Anabaptist, your religion was founded by Nicholas Storch and Thomas Munzer in Germany in 1521.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you belong to the Mennonites, your church was started in 1536 by Menno Simons in Switzerland.
If you are a Calvinist, Jon Calvin started your belief system in 1555 in Switzerland.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are Dutch Reformed, Michaelis Jones founded your church in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek around 1836.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you are Seventh Day Adventist, your religion was founded by Ellen Whitein 1844 in Washington, New Hampshire.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you’re Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the Topeka, Kansas in 1901 by Charles F. Parkham
If you are Assemblies of God your church grew out of Pentecostalism in 1914 in Hot Springs, Az.
If you are a member of Four-square Gospel, your church was started by Aimee Semple McPherson in L.A. in 1917.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith founded your church in Costa Mesa, Ca, 1965
If your organization is “evangelical nondenominational Christian” your group started in the 1970s by protestants.
If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

I hope this helps clear up your misapprehensions on the subject.

Your servant in Christ

 

[guanophore]

Perhaps you should let James defend himself; he is more than capable with all due respect.

Tanner, you are receiving some feedback that could help you remain on the forum, if you are willing to accept it. CAF is not a venue for you to ply your evangelistic wares.

This is not a condemnation, but a warning; God is the one who is in charge of saving and condemnation, not me.

Well, he would not need a warning if he was “saved” now, would he? And no unsaved person will get to heaven, right?

**You assume that I assume; I have zero doubts and I am thankful to God for the privilege to serve and the mercy received.  No man is going to have God indwell them and have the mind of Christ, as the Bible says, and the spirit of the man not know; especially if they are living for the glory of God....right?**

Yes, we assume that you assume. You have received the testimony of yourself.

You obviously believe you have the “mind of Christ”.
Tanner9188;5516535:

You are mistakenly taught, IMO, that you cannot be assured of anything except some time in purgatory.

Since the Catholic Church does not teach this, where did this mistaken notion come from? You are the one asserting it, so maybe you know the source?

Luke 1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us,** just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word**

, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write {it} out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

This is called the paradosis (receiving what was handed down). Protestants are separated form the paradosis.

These are few of the clearer passages that a basic student of the Bible can understand concerning assurance of salvation, there are many more passages in the NT and OT that are explicit and implicit. What do you say; can one be assured according to Scripture or not? What say you?

It is wrong to separate these passages from the Teaching of the Apostles, and the remainder of scripture, as you have done here. There are just as many other passages that indicate other things.