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guanophore
Guest
Ahh, but such quality rebuttal outweighs any oversight it’s masterful presentation.
How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?
- Status
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moondweller
Guest
I take from all of this that your answer to my question is NO. I knew it already but I wondered if you did. And why do you think you can’t find any examples in the Scriptures of men lined up for miles on end to confess their sins to the Apostles in order to have them absolved? Because the Apostolic message was not confess and be forgiven, but rather believe and you are forgiven:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”moondweller:
You misinterpret divine revelation MD. You needn’t do this since Catholics have know for 2,000 years what the apostles REALLY DID and what they really taught. Why try to back-engineer what happened by reading bits and pieces of the bible and trying to piece it all together and re-invent the wheel from scratch when it’s all been known? Would you take your car to an auto-mechanic for repairs if he was self-taught and consulted the user manual for each new problem he had to fix? Would you go to a heart surgeon for open heart surgery if that surgeon never was taught by anyone who ever did one and all he has is a college book on the “gist” of how to perform an open heart surgery? I hope not. So why would you trust yourself to know what the apostles actually taught by trying to use the bible as a “how to” book when that was not what it was written for. Paranoia and suspicion about Christianity’s traditional Catholic teaching is a recent phenomena that came out of the suspicious minds of the reformers. These men were clueless about church history and practice yet in their brashness they felt they had more knowledge of the early Church than did the Church itself!
Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,"You’ve got lots of theories and a fertile imagination (expressed by many words) James, but Christian theology (not theory) is based on divine revelation (not one’s imagination). It’s what makes true Christianity unique amongst all the religions developed by men on this earth, ancient and contemporary.
In Rom 8:35 Paul asks rhetorically:“Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?” Notice the one thing that Catholics say will separate us from Christ is conspicuously missing: SIN. A careless overlook by Paul? Heavens no! Paul didn’t put it on the list because according to Pauline theology sin was dealt with, once for all, judicially by death and the shed, sacrificial blood of God’s Sin-bearer.
For the true believer NOTHING can separate him from Christ. Not even sins, since all of them, yes, all of them, were laid on Christ, once for all, and buried with Him. You see, sin can’t separate the true believer from the love of Christ because through Christ his sins have been forever separated from him. For this reason Jesus said:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."This is called GRACE, my friend. The message of the Apostles was/is about GRACE, FAITH and LIFE eternal in the risen Christ. That’s why it’s called the “gospel” (“good news”). :extrahappy:
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brb2
Guest
This is your strongest case, and I too tend to believe that ANY [protestant or catholic] … who ABIDES in Christ [as did the Apostles, esp. John] … will not come into judgment a second time. Common sense tells us that anyone going to the gallows, or on the Roman Cross … was FULLY confessed and IN CHRIST to the highest degree of their lives.
The reality is that very few converts have faced the trials the Christians of first centuries did. We have the those who really did ABIDE to their martydom deaths, and we have those who abide to their natural deaths.
So, Purgatory is not only scriptural, it is common sense. Those Christians who love their worldly possessions a tad too much, and who don’t strive to fully encorporate the Beatitudes into their lives … should expect the necessity of some purgation, before they learn to truly ABIDE. But, I don’t see Purgatory as God desiring to exact a ‘pound of flesh or pain’ from those who BELIEVE & WORSHIP Christ daily in their lives.
Protestants need to realize the seriousness of post-conversion sinning … and not sweep their sins BACKWARDS in historical time to that day they first believed and received Justification. Anytime we make a fresh, complete confession or received the Eucharist … we are absolved of sins confessed to Christ. Protestants need to see the essential necessity of this … and in my experience, the best way to ‘stay forgiven’ is thru the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.
Md … wouldn’t it be ironic if most of those spending serious time in Purgatory are the Protestants ? Yet, they will finally come to accept it, love its existance, and discover the Sacraments they ignored in this life … given the alternative reality they might face.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Can you show me a single verse in scripture that speaks of “theology” MD? My words are not my own “imagination” MD - but the actual 2,000 apostolic teaching that was handed down to us. So what you are doing here is denigrating the apostles and all their successors and all true Christians when you attempt to discredit what I say.
What you have done here is replaced the simple historical teaching example and traditions of the apostles with your own fantasies and the spurious outcomes from your preoccupation with the study and analysis of things that you imagine you are an expert in. But you prove by your own rejection of the scriptural evidences and the historical record and your own use of duplicitous standards that you know very little about what it is you study. MD, pardon me, but you seem committed to a superficial view of what really happened and want to ignore the continuous 2000 year old practices that The Catholic Church as well as the abundent historical evidence about confession and repentance (and other things too). You gloss over or completely ignore the true teachings we pass on to you as you favor your own personal teachings that are mere innovations of 500 year old dead and buried anti-Catholics (which were also spurious conjectures). But the problem is MD there is NO historical basis for any of what they or you say.
You should hold yourself to your own standards. Prove to yourself from the early church fathers that what you want to believe against all evidence is true. You are like an Monday morning quarterback – but coming in 2,000 years after the events who is trying to anachronistically project your own theology and world view into history using the Catholic Bible (a liturgical book) for a your only source of history hoping against all reason that is will give you a play by play account of what really happened. But you have no period knowledge and you have no handed down traditions to even get a context from the bible and so you let conjecture, doubt and suspicion becomes the predominate things that shape your world view. As your starting basis all you really have is a 500 year old fading echo from the grave of the reformer’s angry, rebellious and hostile anti-Catholic constructions co-joined with your own heaping dose of doubt, skepticism and even contempt for traditional handed down Catholic teachings.
MD, you are being arbitrary in who you want to believe and so submit your intellect to a ever-changing 1500’s era fairy tale that was never taught by the apostles. Ironically, what you hold as sacrosanct was not even believed by the reformers since what you call “Christianity” is an even more polluted downstream neo-Christian innovation (e.g. even Martin Luther praised private confession in his 1529 catechism). It seems to me MD that your idea of salvation is just a matter of clicking your heels 3 times and saying “I believe” and then you imagine you have a free ticket to ignore sin, not repent and are “saved”; happy in your assurance that you get the big eternal crackerjack prize of paradise (with or without a relationship with God). But MD, NO Christian believed this in apostolic times. A “true” believer was loyal to the apostolic succession and had faith in all of Jesus’ words and in those disciples (bishops and priests) that the apostles choose and approved to succeed them.
Let’s review the facts:
I gave you explicit references in scripture from the very same biblical books you quote that demonstrate unequivicably that there was a ministry of reconciliation in addition to a ministry of baptism. The accounts of John the Baptist speak of throngs of people coming out from Jerusalem and the countryside to REPENT and be baptised so that they could learn of salvation BY THE FORGIVENESS OF THEIR SINS as prophesied by Zacharia (Luke 1:76-77 ). Masses upon masses came out to John to REPENT and gain the knowledge of salvation and to prepare for God’s Kingdom which they thought was imminent. They did not come out of faith to meet Jesus since all they knew about in that time was God (the Father). Many Jews following the teachings of the Sadducees had no concept of an afterlife - so John’s message was profound.
*Mark 1:5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Luke 1:76-77 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; For you will go on BEFORE THE LORD TO PREPARE HIS WAYS; 77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins, *
Notice that the prophesy does not say “knowledge of salvation by their faith in The Lord”.
The Jews ALL wanted forgivness of sins and to embrace this new concept of a surety of salvation in an afterlife that was only previously hinted at in the OT Wisdom literature. God was about to confirm it through this new prophet preaching repentance. There was an air of expectation of God’s Messiah and people were ready to be delivered.
The verses you cite are NOT in conflict with repentance and confession since confession and forgivness are performed in the name of Jesus as is apostolically handed down to us.
I also gave you a scripture verse that proves that many people came to the apostles for forgivness:
*Acts 19:18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. *
You can’t ignore the evidence MD - open your eyes and admit it. BELIEVERS came forward to confess their sins to THE APOSTLES because they knew they had the power to forgive sins. Why would anyone publicly confess sins if they did not believe that was efficacious to being forgiven??? Is it really to unreasonable to ask for some common sense MD?
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued]
But speaking of fertile imaginations and conjecture MD you take the cake to imagine you can get inside Paul’s head to say that his conspicuous overlook of sin in separation between Christ and the sinner is because he felt it was not an issue. For a person who thought sin was obsolete Paul sure spoke about it a lot to be so forgetful - in fact 52 times.
*Romans 6: 12 …do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. *
The apostle is clear: “Do not let” - he wants us to master our vices, NOT service wickedness and overcome and master sin so that it does not reign where Christ should reign as Lord. Sounds like a call to purity to me MD. “Just believe” and you too can master sin through the power of grace MD. Get some and you too can be saved and sin no more.
Paul has given you his commandment: you are not to be a slave to sin, which leads to death, but to be a slave to OBEDIENCE which leads to righteousness (Rom 6:16). A true believer no longer offers the parts of his body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, but becomes slave to righteousness which leads to holiness (e.g. sanctification) (Rom 6:19). The Pauline equation is very simple MD: Holiness->Eternal Life (Roman 6:22). *“The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God” (Rom 8:7). * And this is why the corrupted minds of those who taught that “sin” is no longer an issue for Christians are so wrong - the reformers neo-Christian theology can not please God since much of it gives quarter to sin and sears the spiritual conscience by interposing the sinful nature of “natural man”. But MD, “if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Rom 8:13 ). MD, if Paul heard you say that sin is permissible because of his words he would rend his garments that you could come to such a perverse conclusion from his words. He would be grieved over the many who have heard his words yet "sinned and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. (2 Cor 12:21). If you seek Christ to be justified in Christ "it becomes evident that [you recognize that we ] ourselves are sinners, [but] does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! (Gal 2:17). Brother MD, if [you catch]someone in a sin, you who [claim to be] spiritual should restore him gently.(Gal 6:1) This is why I am patiently trying to correct your erroneous teachings here since you are preaching a different gospel than what Paul and the other apostles taught. In fact as required I rebuke [you] publicly, so that the others may take warning(1 Tim 5:20).
I know it’s a paradigm shift for you MD - but Paul tells us you must OBEY Christ as Lord and that means you have to avoid sin and obey all his commandments. FAITH alone is not what forgives sins - it is having faith in the passed down spiritual authority of Christ through the apostolic succession that forgives sins. Faith is the means by which we are grafted into the original Abrahamic promise to the Seed (singular) of Abraham - CHRIST IS THAT SINGLE SEED - the seed by which the descendants of God’s sons will be too numerous to count. But it is not “by faith alone” that we are saved - since through disobedience of freewill we can ungraft our selves at any moment to separate from that sacred promise to Abraham by breaking covenant. God holds no son as a slave to Him against their own will. We only belong to Christ and are inheritors of that same one pure Abrahamic Seed of Christ if we obey Christ AND He acknowledges us before God the Father as His. But Christ will NOT acknowledge the lukewarm soul who does not obey Him and who insists on having it his own way and goes right on sinning and not cooperating with God’s sanctification.
All the above said I will say here that not even sin can not separate us from the love of Christ while we are this side of salvation; and for as long as we are open to being healed and seek forgiveness and not presume to sin to abuse mercy. At death grave sin that still lives in the human heart will dominate the disobedient soul and in its wicked hardness will reveal itself like an inner demon to reject even God’s final call to mercy. We are only separated from The Lord by our own freewill and damned by our own choice.
James
But speaking of fertile imaginations and conjecture MD you take the cake to imagine you can get inside Paul’s head to say that his conspicuous overlook of sin in separation between Christ and the sinner is because he felt it was not an issue. For a person who thought sin was obsolete Paul sure spoke about it a lot to be so forgetful - in fact 52 times.
*Romans 6: 12 …do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. *
The apostle is clear: “Do not let” - he wants us to master our vices, NOT service wickedness and overcome and master sin so that it does not reign where Christ should reign as Lord. Sounds like a call to purity to me MD. “Just believe” and you too can master sin through the power of grace MD. Get some and you too can be saved and sin no more.
Paul has given you his commandment: you are not to be a slave to sin, which leads to death, but to be a slave to OBEDIENCE which leads to righteousness (Rom 6:16). A true believer no longer offers the parts of his body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, but becomes slave to righteousness which leads to holiness (e.g. sanctification) (Rom 6:19). The Pauline equation is very simple MD: Holiness->Eternal Life (Roman 6:22). *“The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God” (Rom 8:7). * And this is why the corrupted minds of those who taught that “sin” is no longer an issue for Christians are so wrong - the reformers neo-Christian theology can not please God since much of it gives quarter to sin and sears the spiritual conscience by interposing the sinful nature of “natural man”. But MD, “if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Rom 8:13 ). MD, if Paul heard you say that sin is permissible because of his words he would rend his garments that you could come to such a perverse conclusion from his words. He would be grieved over the many who have heard his words yet "sinned and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. (2 Cor 12:21). If you seek Christ to be justified in Christ "it becomes evident that [you recognize that we ] ourselves are sinners, [but] does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! (Gal 2:17). Brother MD, if [you catch]someone in a sin, you who [claim to be] spiritual should restore him gently.(Gal 6:1) This is why I am patiently trying to correct your erroneous teachings here since you are preaching a different gospel than what Paul and the other apostles taught. In fact as required I rebuke [you] publicly, so that the others may take warning(1 Tim 5:20).
I know it’s a paradigm shift for you MD - but Paul tells us you must OBEY Christ as Lord and that means you have to avoid sin and obey all his commandments. FAITH alone is not what forgives sins - it is having faith in the passed down spiritual authority of Christ through the apostolic succession that forgives sins. Faith is the means by which we are grafted into the original Abrahamic promise to the Seed (singular) of Abraham - CHRIST IS THAT SINGLE SEED - the seed by which the descendants of God’s sons will be too numerous to count. But it is not “by faith alone” that we are saved - since through disobedience of freewill we can ungraft our selves at any moment to separate from that sacred promise to Abraham by breaking covenant. God holds no son as a slave to Him against their own will. We only belong to Christ and are inheritors of that same one pure Abrahamic Seed of Christ if we obey Christ AND He acknowledges us before God the Father as His. But Christ will NOT acknowledge the lukewarm soul who does not obey Him and who insists on having it his own way and goes right on sinning and not cooperating with God’s sanctification.
All the above said I will say here that not even sin can not separate us from the love of Christ while we are this side of salvation; and for as long as we are open to being healed and seek forgiveness and not presume to sin to abuse mercy. At death grave sin that still lives in the human heart will dominate the disobedient soul and in its wicked hardness will reveal itself like an inner demon to reject even God’s final call to mercy. We are only separated from The Lord by our own freewill and damned by our own choice.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
The second judgement is on “the world”. It does not change the judgement of those found worthy of heaven or those condemned to hell. It is for “completeness” to pass the “final word” on “it all”. Jesus tells us the meaning of all of Creation, explains all the mysteries and shows the extent of good vs evil and how a greater good came out of fallen man. The effect is to intensify the glory of the the elect and to increase the punishment of the damned since all will received their resurrected bodies. The saint’s bodies will be glorified/transfigured bodies that have no limitations as we can conceive. The wicked bodies will take on the underlying grotesqueness of their wicked souls (form follows function) and these will appear as hideous monsters to reflect their true underlying nature of evil.
Don’t be afraid of the 2nd judgement! It’s the answers we have all been wanting to hear and the pinnacle of glory and deeper beatitude.
James
M
moondweller
Guest
As I said, James, you do have a fertile imagination!! I’m sure this example is just the tip of the iceberg.
This is the reason God has always preserved His Word in theopneustos, Holy Writ; so men like you can’t write their own version and supply their own ending according to their own fertile imagination. This might make a great sci-fi movie, James, but that’s all it would ever be.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
MD - you really are just revealing to us all that you have very little inner sanctification and spiritual enlightenment and are still in a fledgling faith. Everything I have said that is is in addition to Catholic Dogma is consistent with scripture and can be spiritually discerned.
The extra details I gave here are highly informed insights not uniquely my own that are not dogmatic teachings of the CC but are permitted personal exegesis MD. This extra insight was not conveyed here as an official teaching of the Catholic Church but as a spiritual insight to a fellow Catholic. It does not disagree in anyway with dogmatic teachings since The Church goes no deeper into this area than in broad terms. That does not mean that those mature in their faith are not permitted to dig deeper and discern more as long as it does not conflict with any other teachings.
The general teaching on the 2nd judgement is however dogmatic and fully supported by scripture and sacred tradition. In fact I can back up my own exegesis from scripture too if pressed - but I don’t want to take your bait and give you the distraction you desperately want just to avoid having to rebut my prior proof about sacramental confession and Pauline doctrine to you. You and I both know that you made a mistake on your personal read of Pauline doctrine that in NO WAY condones sin to render it unimportant and obsolete. I just proved it to you. Why not answer the mail on what I rebutted you with rather than look for an easy way to duck out of the arena or else resign to the truth that you are wrong?
So please just toss in the towel or else go back to your corner MD. You can’t just come into CAF and make unsupportable assertions then run away and divert attention to the fact that you are on the ropes and unable to defend what you say. If you really want to debate the 2nd Judgement theology we can start a new thread.
BTW here are some Catholic references to what I said about the 2nd judgement that shows that a respected and ordained apostolic priest holds the same or similar views.
THE FOUR LAST THINGS
Part I: The Christian Understanding of Death
The Four Last Things Part II: Our Judgment Before God
[ The Rosary Light & Life - Vol 57 #3]THE FOUR LAST THINGS
Part III: HELL](Light & Life Vol 57 No 3, May-June 04 - Theology For The Laity)
THE FOUR LAST THINGS PART IV: Heaven
James
M
moondweller
Guest
And on this “I rest” my case (pun intended, Matt. 11:28-30).
I don’t add to God’s Word. It’s the simplicity of the Apostolic gospel message of belief in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and the divine gift of eternal life that has caused men to stumble in unbelief down through the centuries. They simply can’t tolerate such grace, such unmerited, divine favor. It’s repugnant to them. God must, in the end, see something good in them to merit their salvation.
It’s neither. It completely denies the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ:Heb 1:3 “And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
M
moondweller
Guest
These are your words, James, not mine. It’s how you interpret the Pauline doctrine of justification as a gift through faith alone (Rom. 3:24; 4:5).
As for sin, again, I agree with Paul:Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"But the avoidance of sin is never the cause of one’s salvation, according to Pauline theology. That’s gifted according to God’s grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Just as I thought you’d do MD - it’s your normal Modus Operandi to hit and run when you can’t answer the mail. Moondweller, you are a huge disappointment. You claim you don’t add to God’s Word yet you put all kinds of your own ideas into Paul’s “head” and don’t account for ALL of God’s word that is spoken on a matter. You cherry pick a few top level concept verses that seem to support your views but fabricate new semantics and meanings for those other pesky “Catholic verses” that always can’t be so easily explained and contradict you so you try to brush them aside. You do the typical Protestant circus-dog “hoop-jumping” trick – ever going round and round in circles jumping forward, backward and side-to-side just to avoid the verses that prove you wrong and thread in the ones that you care to keep so you can call scripture “simple” (so simple even a caveman can be saved huh? ). You then wait for people to get tired of circuitous chase then look for a diversion (thanks BRB for falling for his tricks again and giving him one - sigh, and I helped by answering you).
I feel like I have just been cheated of 3 days of my life trying hard to help you see how wrong you are only to have you “cut and run”. In your almost 2 years of being here MD you still do not “get it”. So you are by far the closest thing I have ever seen to a person who might have just forensically declared himself to be saved through the Catholic concept of invincible ignorance. Congratulations - you will have worked hard for your salvation. Opps, you don’t believe in works but I see that does not stop you from saying one thing and doing another eh?
James
M
moondweller
Guest
So the vision of “the 2nd Judgment” is not “official” Catholic Church teaching but it was divinely discerned by a mature Catholic. Your Magisterium goes no deeper than broad terms (obviously based on how they interpret prophetic Scripture), but to a mature Catholic God provides through spiritual discernment greater details? Why does He hold such details back from the “infallible” and instead reveal them to the fallible? Oh, I forgot, it can become “official” when the “infallible” vote it in as “official.” But, in the meantime it can be believed, right? But just not “officially” believed. But since it’s not “official” teaching it can be rejected, too, right? (cf. Col. 2:18).
M
moondweller
Guest
John’s message and ministry was profound to national ISRAEL. His message was for Israel to “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (near).” He didn’t say, “Repent of your sins…” In fact, that term isn’t found in the Scriptures. To repent is to change one’s mind, one’s direction.
John the Baptist was the forerunner for the Messiah, the Son of David, the One who would, according to the ancient Hebrew prophets, and told to Mary by the angel Gabriel at the Annunciation (Lk. 1:32-33), “reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom would have no end.”
But according to the Gospel accounts the King was rejected and crucified. And in fulfillment of God’s prophetic Word, this rejected One by the providence of God became the Savior of the world in that at that time “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross” (1 Pet. 2:24), and “He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21).
However, after the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of Christ the Apostles weren’t commissioned to take to the world the same message of the forerunner, that being “the kingdom is at hand.” The kingdom that was “at hand” while the King was present with them on earth never materialized; but instead after His crucifixion and bodily resurrection He ascended back into Heaven. The message that was commissioned to the Apostles, which they took to the world, was the message to BELIEVE in the Person and sacrificial work of One who died in their stead, sacrificed for their sins, and by believing they would receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38; 26:18; Col. 1:14), the gift of eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; Rom. 6:23) and justification apart from works through faith alone (Rom. 3:24; 4:5).
Instead of the Son of David ascending His father’s throne in Jerusalem on earth to fulfill the ancient prophecies concerning the Messianic, Davidic Kingdom, He ascended back into Heaven where He now shares His Heavenly Father’s throne (Heb. 1:3; Rev. 3:21) as the believer’s High Priest, where He is presently building His church (Matt. 16:18), calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles through faith in Him alone. A peculiar people on this earth: forgiven of sins; redeemed by blood; justified by faith; sanctified in Him; and possessing eternal life; eagerly waiting for the time when He returns for His bride (His church) and “will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:20-21). When she’ll be taken up and meet Him to whom she’s betrothed (2 Cor. 11:2) in the air to be with Him forever (1 Thess. 4:15-18).
So, no, my friend, John was sent out into the wilderness of Judea with a completely different message than that of the Apostles. However, that same message (gospel) of “the kingdom is at hand” will be preached again at the end of the age, just prior to Jesus’ second Advent, when He returns to rule over His promised, earthly, Millennial kingdom, and rightfully sit on His father David’s throne in Jerusalem (Matt. 24:14; 25:31; Rev. 3:21; cf. Zech. 14).
John’s message was to the nation of Israel to prepare the way for the King. But the Apostle’s message (gospel) was that of the cross and to BELIEVE in Him whom the Father sent, was crucified and was bodily raised on the third day for the the believer’s eternal salvation.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
You are deliberately taking us down a rabbit hole to avoid answering my rebuttal of your fallable Pauline interpretation that has no traditional nor historical basis.
I gave you explicit scripture showing “many” confessing their sins to the apostles – which you ignored. I gave you a large number of integrative Pauline expositions on sin that PROVE that Paul insisted that we strive for holiness and use the power of grace to master our sinful nature so we would gain eternal life. You ignored that too and walked away from the dialog. Now you want to start a tangential subtopic to challenge dogmatic teachings vice private interpretation.
As to this entirely new topic of 2nd Judgement you know I was responding only to your criticism of the highlighted part of my original quote where I gave a private opinion on the form of the body the elect and the wicked would receive at the 2nd judgement. None of this personal opinion is necessary for salvation though and its waste of everyone’s time here to discuss it further.
So now you are creating a strawman here since you are embarrassed that you can’t come back against by rebuttal to your false sola fide teaching and your mischaracterization of Pauline theology. That’s pretty low MD.
You know very well that the 2nd judgement IS dogmatic Catholic teaching since you have participated in this discussion multiple times here at CAF (ref: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4669499&postcount=1103) before with Catholics. You enjoy going around and around with Catholics on your own ideas and your own private theology so I know you know what that Catholic teaching is. If you need refreshing, here is a link to the Catholic Catechism on The Last Judgement.
The Catechism most definately details that the elect get “glorified bodies”. Frankly, I had forgotten that this is dogmatic and wrongly recollected that I had pulled that from my own private insights.
1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face:596
By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.597
1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:
The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.629
1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay… We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.637
1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.
*1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:
The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.629
1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay… We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.637
1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.
The only thing I really added from personal insight and saintly readings is that the wicked who sinned in the flesh and who also are joined to their bodies to intensify their punishment in-the-flesh as an in-kind dimension of punishment for sins committed in the flesh (ref: CC 1059 with some minor exegesis) AND the part I added - become grotesque to mirror their underlying wicked nature. In the Catholic theology the soul determines the form of the creature and so by that principal I projected that soul that is stripped of sanctifying grace must project its own wicked and corrupt nature in in the body. It’s not at all important to salvation - but might serve to make people think more about avoiding hell when they come to realize that in hell there is almost no remaining trace of humanity in the wicked/damned. People often do not think too deeply on how it might be possible for a person to conceive of ever rejecting God’s Mercy - but by taking on progressively more sin it degrades our humanity. We become consumed in wickedness and we lose our humanity bit by bit. We can become hardened and completely lose our empathetic abilities and insights and so become entirely selfish and self centered. That is how a person can reject Mercy and choose hell and that is why I even bring up the concept in the first place. People really don’t think they could ever reject mercy but do not understand that sin bends our nature progressively toward evil. At death those in grave lifelong sin instinctively pridefully reject final offers of mercy. Despair becomes the only suitable option - thus the final unpardonable sin against the HS. An irrevocable choice for hell.
James
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brb2
Guest
Love is powerful stuff - its the essence of God and the person who is full of real supernatural love (that is Charity) will cover over many sins.
There it is Moondweller . Paul saying if he has ALL FAITH, but lacks love, … he is nothing. So much for your saying ALL one needs is ‘Faith alone’. And, then Paul argues from the other side of the coin. If he has maximum Charity, and goes for Martyrdom, yet lacks Love, … he has gained nothing.
Md … maybe we could buy you saying LOVE ALONE … conquers all.
Not really, its clear that LOVE results in ALL THE REST … Since God is love, and from him comes all the Beatitude components.So, don’t be only one dimensional Reformed protestant … be multifaceted Orthodox UNIVERSAL Catholic
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brb2
Guest
And this is why the corrupted minds of those who taught that “sin” is no longer an issue for Christians are so wrong - the reformers neo-Christian theology can not please God since much of it gives quarter to sin and sears the spiritual conscience by interposing the sinful nature of “natural man”. But MD, “if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Rom 8:13 ). MD, if Paul heard you say that sin is permissible because of his words he would rend his garments that you could come to such a perverse conclusion from his words. He would be grieved over the many who have heard his words yet "sinned and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. (2 Cor 12:21). If you seek Christ to be justified in Christ "it becomes evident that [you recognize that we ] ourselves are sinners, [but] does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! (Gal 2:17).
Brother MD, if [you catch]someone in a sin, you who [claim to be] spiritual should restore him gently.(Gal 6:1) This is why I am patiently trying to correct your erroneous teachings here since you are preaching a different gospel than what Paul and the other apostles taught. In fact as required I rebuke [you] publicly, so that the others may take warning(1 Tim 5:20).
Paul tells us you must OBEY Christ as Lord and that means you have to avoid sin and obey all his commandments.
But Christ will NOT acknowledge the lukewarm soul who does not obey Him and who insists on having it his own way and goes right on sinning and not cooperating with God’s sanctification.
All the above said I will say here that not even sin can not separate us from the love of Christ while we are this side of salvation; and for as long as we are open to being healed and seek forgiveness and not presume to sin to abuse mercy. At death grave sin that still lives in the human heart will dominate the disobedient soul and in its wicked hardness will reveal itself like an inner demon to reject even God’s final call to mercy.
This is Multifaceted Catholicism at its best
CFJ ---- always showing us another aspect of the Right Stuff. Just what the ECF [James the Just ] had … and has past down to his offspring CFJ
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brb2
Guest
There is a beauty to this. Where did you come up with this overarching, idealized picture ?
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brb2
Guest
You clearly aren’t talking about Catholics here. You need to attend a Mass, if you mistakenly think Catholics believe we can merit God’s love ! Read the works of St. Augustine … expand you horizons. St. Augustine taught that any merit we might have … is endowed [Graced] to us by ABIDING in Christ. And writes ‘What good works have we in this life, that are not a Gift from God to us’ ?
The Christian life is all about ‘Grace to us[you]’. We can do nothing apart from Christ … so sciptures teach, that Christ told his Apostles. Catholicism is all about INFUSION of Christ to us, by grace.
Tell me this —
Why do you reject the concept of INFUSION ? Why does it scare you ?
Why are you comfortable with Christ in Heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father … yet afraid to receive him within yourself via the Eucharist … or Baptism for that matter ?
Until you acknowledge INFUSION of grace as the normative means of receiving the indwelling H.S. … you are ‘holding Christ off at a distance’. Read the Gospel of John. He will set you straight on H.S. … and why it must be INFUSED, and not CONFUSED [with imputation means].
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CentralFLJames
Guest
God loves to contemplate His own works. Go back and read Genesis 1 - He judges each phase of creation saying “God saw that it was good”. But man falls and so everything works toward His objective end which is to save a fallen mankind and to reveal the Sons of God and elevate them to the Divine Nature and make good on all His promises. It’s a happy ending for all - most of all for God. Creation was all about revealing Jesus to the material world and to bring glory to Him. Jesus loves humanity and came so that we could through trust and cooperation with God elevate our nature to become like Him - Divine-human - all so that we could return the Love to God from a nature that was god like and meaningful to Him in His very own nature. Jesus always lead by example - in birth, life and death. We can expect that what Jesus has revealed of himself will be also substantially manifest in ourselves. As the son is glorified so we too who remain in Him shall be glorified and elevated. As Jesus so loved the Father - so shall we love through a similar estate that exceeds our current human nature.
James
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moondweller
Guest
NONE of these, James, are examples of confessing sins for absolution. Your problem is you READ INTO texts your fully developed Catholic doctrines. That only works on other Catholics.
I agree with the striving for holiness but not for the purpose of attaining (as a reward) eternal life:Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
1 Tim 1:16 “Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.”
One need only go to the Scriptures to know that believers will get glorified bodies (Phil. 3:20-21). I never said it wasn’t a Catholic belief. But the exaggeration of their almost limitless abilities is over the top. What is WAY over the top is the idea that the bodies of the wicked will be transformed into some kind of grotesque looking creatures backed up by your adage: “form follows function.”
You see why Divine Revelation isn’t left up to the minds of men and the reason God preserved His Word in theopneustos, hard copy, Holy Writ? You see why the Reformers went back to the Scriptures?- Status