How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[CentralFLJames]

I beg to differ; here is the link to the true teaching.
searchgodsword.org/

You asked for an exhibition on the Catholic faith’s belief on particular and 2nd judgement not a link to a neo-Christian fundamentalist site that includes in it’s offerings a pop-cultural smorgasbord spread of optional self-serve beliefs.

James

 

[Tanner9188]

ummm…I’m sorry, but the comment you quoted me on, if you read above, I didnt say some of that??? did you add words?? I even looked back…I never said other religions were ‘always learning but never get the truth’???



lol…sorry i just had to point that out…now imma go back and read what you put…

Sorry,

That was a short comment of mine, I should have used a different color or made some other distinction.

 

[Tanner9188]

You asked for an exhibition on the Catholic faith’s belief on particular and 2nd judgement not a link to a neo-Christian fundamentalist site that includes in it’s offerings a pop-cultural smorgasbord spread of optional self-serve beliefs.

James

Lighten up…just kidding around with you. :slapfight:

 

[brb2]

Consider what God says:
John the baptists testimony in John 1 -
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

]

Tanner …

What does John in verse 1:16 mean by … “Grace upon Grace” ? Translate this scripture for us from the Protestant perspective.

 

[Tanner9188]

MD’s editorializing of the Catholic teaching is in “the ball park” but has his regular counter-clockwise spin on things. Here is a link to the official teaching:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

Read the following 2 paragraphs:
I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT
V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

The surrounding paragraphs are good to read too.

James

Do you really believe all of Scripture is without error?
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 1031

That a real problem for the Christian. To jump from a cleansing fire to purgatory doctrine is a huge leap of faith; Catholics do have great faith.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Another big issue for the Christian mind; for Scripture is without error and what the Catholic church claims as Sacred Scripture in reference to Maccabees is erroneous factually and really.

(r) In 2 Maccabees 8:10, Nicanor wanted to pay 2,000 talents to the Romans; the Seleucids were not under the Romans.
(s) In 2 Maccabees 8:20 8K Seleucids plus 4K Macedonians did not destroy 120,000 Galatians in Babylonia.
(t) Minor historical discrepancies between 1 and 2 Maccabees.
Rebuttal: Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits it has errors on details.
Inference: Writers of Sirach (prologue) and 2 Mac (2:24-43; 15:38-40) indicate they were not inspired.
Rebuttal: A writer might not know he was inspired.

Bottom Line: When we have to choose between a human viewpoint and the truth of God, we follow God. We, who together are the True Church, must not cease to recognize and follow God’s truth.

Source: biblequery.org/

 

[brb2]

L

…infusion: defined -

1. soaking (usually in water)
2. introducing a certain modifying element or quality; “the team’s continued success is attributable to a steady infusion of new talent”
3. The Catholic’s righteous journey toward salvation; traceable to a steady infusion of Gods saving Grace

]

All three examples above seem to fit … don’t you see a trend / theme here Tanner ?

#1 … Baptism is mechanism #2 Holy Spirit is mod. element #3 Eucharist is the means of ‘steady infusion’ of Grace upon Grace

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner …

What does John in verse 1:16 mean by … “Grace upon Grace” ? Translate this scripture for us from the Protestant perspective.

It is the super-abundance of grace or overflowing of grace that has been displayed by God toward mankind; especially true believers.

 

[Tanner9188]

All three examples above seem to fit … don’t you see a trend / theme here Tanner ?

#1 … Baptism is mechanism #2 Holy Spirit is mod. element #3 Eucharist is the means of ‘steady infusion’ of Grace upon Grace

That’s great, but it has a fatal flaw; it is not taught in Scripture and change infusion of saving grace from imputed saving grace is to remove the single event of Justification before God at the moment a person truly believe in their heart the gospel of Jesus or the gospel of grace.

 

[brb2]

That’s great, but it has a fatal flaw; it is not taught in Scripture .

Baptism not the mechanism of rebirth ??

Holy Spirit is not the Holy Element ?

The Eucharist is not delivered to Catholics internally ? Absorbed into the bloodstream … by ‘natural’ Intravenous Infusion. Blood going first to the Heart, and only then to the Mind/Brain. Supernatural Grace to us, reinforcing grace previously received.

Where is the Fatal Flaw ? Perhaps only a FF for those who deny Supernatural Grace of Body & Blood.

 

[moondweller]

It is absurd to now try to redefine “repentance” to mean a change of belief about Christ when the very first message we get from John the Baptist is REPENT of YOUR SINS. Mark 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

That’s “preaching a baptism of repentance FOR remission of sins:” “eis aphesin amartiôn.” Not a “repentance of sins.”

After this we get Christ telling us to repent: Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Even the angels in heaven know that repentance is all about turning away from sin *Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one **sinner who repents ***than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent…

And as for Luke 5:32, of course, it’s sinners that are called to repentance: change their direction. Same with Luke 15:7.

C’mon James, nothing you present here, Scripturally, changes what I wrote. All Christian doctrine is to be based on divine revelation only: that would be the theopneustos Scriptures. Anything less would make Christianity no more than just another one of man’s religions. It’s not.

BTW, I thought you said you were done dialoguing with me?

 

[SteveGC]

md…really…

you can try to twist my phraseology any way you want…play your “of vs for” grammar games somewhere else.

We are to repent OF our sins FOR the forgiveness OF them.

We indeed DO repent OF our sins…because our sin is a placement of our mind on ourselves…and actions which take us further down the path in a direction AWAY from God…which goes by the alias of “disobedience”.

And when we DO change our mind in favor of God and turn back toward Him…in other words, when we turn from sin…we are forgiven.

Your version of repentance is to go from unbelief to belief? That doesn’t come anywhere close to the proper utlization of the term repent. A simple browsing of the dictionary reveals that…

re⋅pent1  /rɪˈpɛnt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-pent]
–verb

1. to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): He repented after his thoughtless act.
2. to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one’s life for the better; be penitent.

Again, I think the disconnect you’re having is that you don’t acknowledge that when you change your mind, or your direction…you had to previously have your mind ON something else…and had to previously been moving (acting) in a different direction (way). This “something else” and “acting in a different way” is called SIN.

 

[SteveGC]

Tanner9188:

Bottom Line: When we have to choose between a human viewpoint and the truth of God, we follow God. We, who together are the True Church, must not cease to recognize and follow God’s truth.

I found this to be a profoundly ironic statement…coming from a person who himself is offering “a human viewpoint” of Christian theology. Just exactly how is it, Tanner, that your teaching can be trusted as “the truth of God”, and not just another “human viewpoint” which you exhort us not to follow? Is it because you know how to discern Christian truths from Scripture better than the historical Church…or better than some other bible-only Christian who by the way is easily apt to “teach” us something different from what you say?

Actually, that MUST be your rationale, for there is no other explanation for it…you obviously possess the true doctrines of Christ’s teachings. Tell us how you came upon this authenticity which has enabled you to come tell us how wrong we all are and set us on the proper path.

sorry for the crassness…but the irony of this was overwhelming.

on a sidenote…are you really going to submit to us with a straight face that Catholics hold grace infusion and propitiation in opposition to one another? that we believe it to be infusion instead of propitiation? What exactly do you really know about Catholic teaching, Tanner? Seems to me you have a natural ignorance of The Church, or a proclivity to inject strawmen…or worse…both.

 

[brb2]

Do you really believe all of Scripture is without error?

Bottom Line: When we have to choose between a human viewpoint and the truth of God, we follow God. We, who together are the True Church, must not cease to recognize and follow God’s truth.

]

Yes, the Catholic Church accepts ALL the Scriptures as inspired Word of God. We do acknowledge a few very minor discrepancies … like ‘who did what where when’ … and some ‘translation errors’ were made in some of the ‘copies’ of the original texts.

But, more importantly … we are awestruck by the ERRORS made by you modern day Pseudo bible scholars, who can’t even translate the English text properly.

Ideas you schismatics / heretics express here reflect the ‘human viewpoint’ … and this is where the massive ‘lost in translational’ errors have occurred. The hubris of Moondweller and Tanner, to think they can Instruct the Catholic Church of the Ancient Apostles and Fathers on scriptures is laughable. Where were you two when Peter and Paul died their Martyr’s deaths in Rome ? Where were you both when Mary & John the Beloved stood at the foot of the Cross, bearing their own crosses of grief.

When were you two annointed ministers of God’s INVISIBLE church on earth, churches neither of you will name for us, … and told to take up arms against the true VISIBLE Church of 2000 years ? Show us your credentials ! Where is the evidence of your historic lineage, your connection to the Apostles ?

Those who resist the wisdom of Catholicism and try to invent their ‘own substitute’ for the Church … are very foolish, and errant. Christ desired his Church to be ONE, Indivisible, shining city on a hill. Repent while you have opportunity, seek Christ in his Church … and become healers, not dividers. Become humble, meek disciples … not boastful and arrogant stone throwers.

Learn the value / merit of gracious works done while ABIDING in Christ, Infused with grace upon grace … thru the Body and Blood of Christ to us / you. Become Catholic, learn to live in the light … and you will never go back to your days of living in the shadows.

Men of Kora’s Rebellion … repent, confess, and turn from your disbelief in Christ’s Church. All are welcome, ‘whosoever many come’ … start attending your local Mass, and learn from the source. BECOME CHURCHED, bonded to Christ … not DISCONNECTED and without all the benefits the Beloved Body of Brethren can provide you. Come in thru the front door of the Visible Chruch, being no longer content to try to climb in thru a back window, or re-create a church of your own imaginations.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Do you really believe all of Scripture is without error?
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 1031

That a real problem for the Christian. To jump from a cleansing fire to purgatory doctrine is a huge leap of faith; Catholics do have great faith.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Another big issue for the Christian mind; for Scripture is without error and what the Catholic church claims as Sacred Scripture in reference to Maccabees is erroneous factually and really.

…
Bottom Line: When we have to choose between a human viewpoint and the truth of God, we follow God. We, who together are the True Church, must not cease to recognize and follow God’s truth.

Source: biblequery.org/

You have a lot of fallacies and inaccuracies in your statements Tanner which some few of the many I will labor to elaborate to demonstrate another macro-level contradiction in your own specious logic. I don’t need to discount them all since at the instant I prove you fallable I can stop. The immediate point I will make on the presumption I can prove you wrong is that your own errors will prove YOU to be uninspired (or more pointedly uninspiring ). If you make a SINGLE error that by your own standard of wanting to toss our Maccabees II on your own projection of error then we can dismiss YOUR opinion just as quickly as “Apocrypha”. After all you are the one announcing your own standard and it would be duplicitious for you to be arbitrary in the application of it while at the same moment trying to present yourself as rational and repeatably credible. In other words, if you would tear out the book of Maccabees II from The Bible based on a perception of error then Catholics would be justified in decapitating the man from the body of believers at the first moment he uttered his own error to prevent a heretical source from polluting the Church. Yes?

To put to bed first things first - let me answer your first question. Is scripture error free? Yes it is - in the sense of scripture that the inspired author intended to say but with the added caveat that the full depth of what was the Holy Spirit said through the pen of the inspired author may be of greater depth and dimension than the human author may have consciously known at the time. There are many cases in scripture (esp. OT) where prophets have given prophecies that have a dual connotation in the prophet’s time and a later fulfillment in the NT etc. I won’t take the space here to give examples but I think you can agree in principal since the NT is fulfillment of OT. The practical impact to this discussion is that what you might interpret as error might really be, and most probably is just a reflection on your own lack of scholarship or anachronistic back-projection or pure logical-deductive error etc. Since I have seen some of your prior analysis and failures of logic based on false assumptions I tend to take most of your ‘red flags’ as first sight indicators of your own personal error since I have yet to see you disprove a single Catholic teaching by YOUR fallable interpretation of scripture. OK - now on to the matter at hand.

Would you say that St. Paul was in error in scripture (Roman 3:4, Romans 3:10-18) when he said all men are liars and are deceived and none are righteous and none understands but seems to have forgotten to exempt himself? Or was Paul telling the truth that he was a liar in an impossible circularity of contradiction? Should we toss out Paul’s Letter to the Romans? Should we toss out ALL of Luther’s teaching for originally desiring to toss out the Antolegomena NT books ( Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, the Acts of Paul, [the Shepherd of Hermas, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Didache], the Apocalypse of John, and the Gospel according to the Hebrews)? If we use your standard based on that “error alone” (sola errata ) we should toss away as “filth” ALL of Luther’s teachings right? Let’s extend it. Should we toss out the KJV for its errors? If we use the popular Protestant 1611 King James Version Bible as our cannon would have found eleven New Testament verses that the Protestant translators felt were quotes from “Apocrypha” books, and in the margin notes they cross-referenced them as such. So, should we toss out those NT verses or can we just toss out all of Protestantism as “in error”?

Mat 6:7          Ecclesiasticus 7:14 
Mat 23:37       2  Esdras 1:30 
Mat 27:43       Wisdom 2:15-16 
Luke 6:31       Tobit 4:15 
Luke 14:13     Tobit 4:7 
John 10:22     1 Maccabees 4:59 
Rom 9:21       Wisdom 15:7 
Rom 11:34      Wisdom 9:13 
2 Cor 9:7        Ecclesiasticus 35:9 
Heb 1:3          Wisdom 7:26 
Heb 11:35       2 Maccabees 7:7

Now to correct some of your errors:

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from prior]

The Doctrine of Purgatory was established LONG before The Council of Trent. You need to understand that Catholics hold to sacred traditions and only dogmatically define them when they become under attack by heretics. That does not mean that they only become defined at the moment they are dogmatically proclaimed through correcting anathemas. God often uses heretics (like the reformers) to help the Catholic Church focus and define its teachings and this is the practical application and benefit of Protestantism on the Catholic Church - your forefathers were used as convenient motivators to give rise to sharpening our pens and tightening up our theology for God’s Church. If not for the millions of souls lost in death and those who are suffering eternal loss Catholics would owe a word of thanks to Protestants to help us dig deeper into The Deposit of Faith to formally declare the truths that were being trampled upon by the Reformers.

For the record, the Deuterocanonicals were defined as “inspired” as early as The Council of Rome in 382 AD and further ratified in Hippo (393 AD) & Carthage (397 AD). Christian Purgatory belief and practices are ancient. Some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both 2nd century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Also we know from the forensic evidence of the early 2nd century Christian catacomb prayer inscriptions The Church believed in the efficacy of prayer for the dead. See THE EXISTENCE OF PURGATORY for early Church Father quotes.

I can stop here and need not take the time and space to rebut the so called “errors” in Maccabees anymore so than I need rebut what you’d have to also call (by the same standard) errors in the NT. For example: *Matt 13:31-32: " “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which…is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree.” *. There are 2 significant errors here: first, there are many smaller seeds, like the orchid seed; and second, mustard plants don’t grow into trees. You need to discern the sense of scripture when reading it. The authors are often using “poetic” or hyperbole to make a point.

OK - I think its pretty clear we have proof positive that you are fallable and therefor are not qualified to be teaching scripture - much less criticizing apostolic Catholic teaching. :guillotine:

James

 

[moondweller]

Show us your credentials ! Where is the evidence of your historic lineage, your connection to the Apostles?

In WHOM, not WHAT we have put our faith.

We have the same salvation by grace through faith in Him alone: redeemed (purchased) by His blood; once for all justified in God’s sight; reconciled to God by His death; gifted eternal life; the hope (not “hope so”) of our future glorification with Him.

IOW, we’re of the same faith, the same promise, the same living hope, the same family (see the family resemblance?).

There you have it: faith, hope and family. A connection that can’t be broken, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise Himself. Can’t get a tighter connection than that. It’s a divine connection. :grouphug:

 

[Tanner9188]

Yes, the Catholic Church accepts ALL the Scriptures as inspired Word of God. We do acknowledge a few very minor discrepancies … like ‘who did what where when’ … and some ‘translation errors’ were made in some of the ‘copies’ of the original texts.

But, more importantly … we are awestruck by the ERRORS made by you modern day Pseudo bible scholars, who can’t even translate the English text properly.

That is no surprise that you would be awestruck by the truth; all of the people that did not accept Jesus on His terms marveled at Him; this is nothing new. Come to Him on His terms and you will be saved.

Ideas you schismatics / heretics express here reflect the ‘human viewpoint’ … and this is where the massive ‘lost in translational’ errors have occurred. The hubris of Moondweller and Tanner, to think they can Instruct the Catholic Church of the Ancient Apostles and Fathers on scriptures is laughable. Where were you two when Peter and Paul died their Martyr’s deaths in Rome ? Where were you both when Mary & John the Beloved stood at the foot of the Cross, bearing their own crosses of grief.

When were you two annointed ministers of God’s INVISIBLE church on earth, churches neither of you will name for us, … and told to take up arms against the true VISIBLE Church of 2000 years ? Show us your credentials ! Where is the evidence of your historic lineage, your connection to the Apostles ?

Those who resist the wisdom of Catholicism and try to invent their ‘own substitute’ for the Church … are very foolish, and errant. Christ desired his Church to be ONE, Indivisible, shining city on a hill. Repent while you have opportunity, seek Christ in his Church … and become healers, not dividers. Become humble, meek disciples … not boastful and arrogant stone throwers.

Learn the value / merit of gracious works done while ABIDING in Christ, Infused with grace upon grace … thru the Body and Blood of Christ to us / you. Become Catholic, learn to live in the light … and you will never go back to your days of living in the shadows.

Men of Kora’s Rebellion … repent, confess, and turn from your disbelief in Christ’s Church. All are welcome, ‘whosoever many come’ … start attending your local Mass, and learn from the source. BECOME CHURCHED, bonded to Christ … not DISCONNECTED and without all the benefits the Beloved Body of Brethren can provide you. Come in thru the front door of the Visible Chruch, being no longer content to try to climb in thru a back window, or re-create a church of your own imaginations.

So agree that Gods word is inerrant; but you accept things with error as God’s Word…very circular. It also shows contempt for His character; and because you agree you become a participant. The 2nd canon was done hastily by ungodly men in response to an effort to get the Catholic church to reject those errors. Instead they began pronouncing judgments on them and worse.

Romans 1 Wrath of Abandonment
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips,** slanderers**, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

The better question that I did not ask is this; does God accept those erroneous books as His word based on His character and attributes, one of which is perfection? The answer is a resounding NO!

You are the one living in a poor shadow of the OT; I live for Christ and Him crucified. Their is no infusion of saving grace; it is imputed fully at the time a person believes with their heart that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and was raised as a promise of full redemption. How do you ever expect to see Jesus if you don’t believe in your heart exactly what He said?

What do you do to increase your chances of going to heaven? Become “Born Again”, repent of all your offensive towards God, cry out for mercy.

 

[Tanner9188]

In WHOM, not WHAT we have put our faith.

We have the same salvation by grace through faith in Him alone: redeemed (purchased) by His blood; once for all justified in God’s sight; reconciled to God by His death; gifted eternal life; the hope (not “hope so”) of our future glorification with Him.

IOW, we’re of the same faith, the same promise, the same living hope, the same family (see the family resemblance?).

There you have it: faith, hope and family. A connection that can’t be broken, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise Himself. Can’t get a tighter connection than that. It’s a divine connection. :grouphug:

MoonD; you will notice among Catholics, I’ve noticed this pattern over and over, something I did not see before, but clearly see now and it is this. They have a tendency to focus on messengers (i.e. Peter, Pope, & ecf’s et al) rather than the message, the gospel of grace, which is the Person of Christ. Remind them over and over because until they focus on the message; they cannot begin to come to the truth of the Person in the message.

God bless you and all who read and understand.

 

[WASP]

OIC. Yes, this is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. They did teach, however, that God’s grace reaches out to us in our lost state, and without that grace, it is impossible for us to come to Him in faith, to be cleansed, and regenerated.

Calvin taught that regeneration happens in order for conversion to occur. This error emanates from the heresy of total depravity.

We disagree on this, but I’m glad that you understand that my position is that “regeneration happens in order for conversion to occur”. They are both simultaneous in time, but logically, regeneration must happen first. A lot of Protestants simply don’t get this.

 

[SteveGC]

MoonD; you will notice among Catholics, I’ve noticed this pattern over and over, something I did not see before, but clearly see now and it is this. They have a tendency to focus on messengers (i.e. Peter, Pope, & ecf’s et al) rather than the message, the gospel of grace, which is the Person of Christ. Remind them over and over because until they focus on the message; they cannot begin to come to the truth of the Person in the message.

God bless you and all who read and understand.

Wrong yet again, Tanner. Your credibility as a critic of Catholicism grows weaker with every post you make. Take some time out of your day to actually absorb what the Church teaches, instead of relying on whatever anti-Catholic tracts and pamphlets that clearly make up your arsenal of debating skills.

What Catholics “have a tendency” to do is focus on the **inseparable bond **of the message AND the messengers. Without authentic messengers, there IS NO message, you see. What protestants have a tendency to focus on is the written text in a vacuum. Ever wonder why Jesus puts all of His focus on oral teaching of select humans, and none on writing books? It’s because He knows that written words cannot hold authentic meaning if those words are not accompanied by authentic teachers. And He knows that this accompaniment must perpetuate throughout all time, if future generations are to authentically receive the Word of God.

We get the FULL Gospel focus, Tanner. The Church has received it from Christ DIRECTLY. She accompanies the written form of that message until the end of the age. It might serve you well to start listening to the appointed messengers of this message, lest you lead yourself and others astray.

On that note…be cautious how much you comfortably reveal on here your motives to proselytize Catholics from the true faith. That’s dangerous ground.