How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[moondweller]

paul c:

Moondweller, The Apostolic message was to love God and to love each other.

No, Paul, that was the message of the Law. But no one was saved by the principle of law. In fact, the Law was to lead those under it to Christ that they might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24; cf. Rom. 4:1-6). That’s why the Apostolic message was to “BELIEVE” and be saved.

You see Moondweller, there is ample scriptural evidence that Jesus expects acts of love from those that will be saved.

Catholicsm has no concept of “saved.” Hence, everything said in Scripture in regards to behavior is interpreted by you as a condition for your future salvation (“will be saved”). Salvation, to a Catholic, is a future “hope so” event based on many conditions which must be met in this life. Hence, no concept of “saved,” as in “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

 

[Tanner9188]

So which of these messages would you pay a blind ear to and ignore the messenger Tanner?
Isaiah 13:14 I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Job 2:4 "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.

Matthew 4:3 “…If You are the (E)Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

Matthes 4:6 If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written*, HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’; and ‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’"

Matthew 4:9 All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."

Matthew 27:40 You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

Luke 23:37 If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."

Matthew 16: 22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

Matthew 26:25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”

Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”

I won’t bother to give you some of the outrageous Luther quotes that you will claim are all taken out of context (remove a man’s drunken and lustful rantings from the beer hall or the madam’s parlor and the words no doubt do loose some of their context.).

James focus on the topic; “deposit of faith” and purgatory; did you pull out of your hat some versus, then copy and paste. Was there a rabbit n there to? Medication(s)?

Pardon me for asking this Tanner, but are you adult with a post High School level of education? I don’t want to sound too hard on you here but your lack of depth of reasoning maturity casts considerable doubt on if I am wasting my time here pointing out all the errors. Or is all this superficial insight just arrogance? I know that Jesus told us that God can speak wonders out of the mouth of babes but I think you are caught in the gap somwhere. Just some feedback - you sound like a teenager who is all pumped up with that newer version of that “old time religion” that you might of picked up from a self-styled protestant “preacher” and are just re-parroting in these forums. Is your dad a fundamentalist preacher? Be honest…

Thanks for the mature and Christ-like insults; may I have some more please.

In saying the early church gave Catholics “great liberty” is this an admission of a papal and ecclesial structure in the early church?

No; that would be an admission of Catholic evolution of the formalization of the 2nd canon.

Why are you not preaching the Dedache and The Shepherd of Hermas - the early church all did? Who would Tanner believe and trust to tell him what is “cannon”?

**We we can rule out the 16th century Catholic Church for sure; they allowed uninspired books to be made equal with the voice of God. You have admitted previously that they contained error and I have provided links to show the specific error and your rebuttal was to say the Bible is with error; but that was after you said it was inerrant. I never met a Christian that believed or would dare to say and try to show it contains error unless they actually believed it; therefore all of us should question whether you are who you claim to be .
**

I see. You are saved and Catholics aren’t? Where do you draw the line between bigotry and self righteousness? I am fallable but you are not? Is that what you are saying here Tanner? I don’t teach my own interpretations on dogma - but the same apostolic teaching that was handed down to me. You teach heterodoxy that no apostole or early church father would recognize as Christian.

James

**James;
You actually and really teach? Since you claim you do, then the mishandling of the word of God has very serious consequences and you show a total lack of regard for God’s word as shown above and from your very mouth. You do not seem to have any fear of the Lord; I hope I’m wrong, but Jesus said “{It is} not what enters into the mouth {that} defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” **

 

[moondweller]

Tanner9188:

Your life, while in the flesh will not be perfect, so it is not the perfection of one’s life with God, but the direction of that life - sinning less and less and recognizing the little sins that you once took no notice of. In that sense it seems as though the sins are bigger than when I first believed because I have become very sensitive to sin; this is a good indication one is moving in the right direction; becoming more and more like Christ.

This is well stated!

 

[Tomster]

No, Paul, that was the message of the Law. But no one was saved by the principle of law. In fact, the Law was to lead those under it to Christ that they might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24; cf. Rom. 4:1-6). That’s why the Apostolic message was to “BELIEVE” and be saved.Catholicsm has no concept of “saved.” Hence, everything said in Scripture in regards to behavior is interpreted by you as a condition for your future salvation (“will be saved”). Salvation, to a Catholic, is a future “hope so” event based on many conditions which must be met in this life. Hence, no concept of “saved,” as in “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

Caution. You have not finished the race as St. Paul teaches.

 

[Tanner9188]

"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me. " Matthew 10:40

Funny though how Jesus repeats this in the Last Supper, just before he announces that someone is going to betray him: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send (note: uhm messenger?) receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me.” (John 13:20).

And oh yeah: “And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor’rah than for that town.” Matthew 10:14-15

**Welcome back - hope the past two days went well.
All I said is too much on the messenger and not enough on the message and every time someone replies to this; they continue to prove the point. Focus more on Christ and less on the messengers, that is all I am saying. Nothing more.

God bless you!**

 

[moondweller]

Actually supernatural adoption is mentioned several times by St. Paul with the proper legal term of the language of the Temple. Thus in his letter to the Romans 8:15: “For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear: but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry Abba (Father)” (cf. Eph. 1:5; Gal. 4:5). The term evokes the current concept of juridical adoption usually defined as: a gratuitous assumption of an outside person as son with the right of inheritance. This human adoption is a moral substitute of natural filiation, which creates a right in the adopted person without changing his physical nature or personality. The adoption spoken of in Holy Scripture transcends the natural order and therefore also the natural concept of common adoption, with which it agrees only analogously. In fact, man, who by faith answers Christ’s call, according to the documents of revelation, is enriched by sanctifying grace, which establishes between creature and God a relationship of paternity and sonship by virtue of spiritual regeneration which resolves itself into an ineffable participation of the very nature of God. Cf. John (Prologue of the Gospel): “He gave them power to be made the sons of God”: 2 Peter 1:4: “He hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature.”

Supernatural adoption therefore means an intrinsic transformation of the soul, a vital divine communication, which makes man domesticus Dei, i.e., a member of the divine family (Eph. 2:19), like to God in being and action. In the ancient litugy and in the writings of the Fathers divine adoption is a dominant motif: the Greeks especially (St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St Cyril of Alexandria) illustrate the relationship between our adoptive filiation and the natural filiation of Jesus Christ with respect to the Father, and prove that the one is the effect of the other. The Scholastics go deeper into this truth (cf. St. Thomas), and after the Council of Trent the theologians fix the expression of this truth in these terms: adoption is a formal effect of sanctifying grace by which the faithful become sons of God, and so brothers of Jesus Christ, their Coheir of eternal life.

I know it is safe to say that the above memtioned Fathers and Saints and the participants at the Council of Trent under the protection of the Holy Spirit “searched the Scriptures.”

Ah-huh! And now here’s what the Scriptures say:Gal 3:26 "For you are all sons of God (how?) through faith in Christ Jesus."Nope, no “formal effect” of so-called “sanctifying grace.” Even with the doctrine of divine adoption you stumble over the simplicity of it all.

 

[Tanner9188]

Who told you that?

Does it have error in your opinion? I believe God revealed His word though His Spirit and we are blessed to have it in written form and it the Holy Bible.

 

[moondweller]

Caution. You have not finished the race as St. Paul teaches.

When it comes to salvation I (nor the Apostle Paul) am in a race. Salvation is not a reward but a gift: “…a gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast”

 

[Tanner9188]

And, does yours include book of James ? verse 2:26

.... "faith apart from works is dead. "  /////    Thanks for confirming the Catholic teaching

Md will love you for conceding this one.

**I don’t think you addressed the right question? Perhaps you should have referred to verse 24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James is simply making the point that “saving faith” will result in righteous works “which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them”; a person not walking in works shows no visible evidence of “faith that saves”, the fruits of righteousness in Christ, which is why James gave the example of a Christian in need of food and clothing, then have some professing Christian, pat them on the back, when they had the resources to provide. This is someone who professes, but the love of God is not in them, which means they are not a Christian at all. Then James moves it up a notch and says you say you believe in God-so does the devil and his angels and they shutter, then he makes; clearly indicating the “someone” he is speaking with is not a Christian at all, comparing them to the devil, , then he goes on to say that he will show (visibly) his “saving faith” by his works; the outward expression of that “saving faith” that people can see and by others seeing the works God prepared give testimony of God in them by the way they live and also give glory to God. Saving faith and works are complementing each other; but the “faith” is not the result of the work; the work is the result of the “true faith”.

If this is not true, then Scripture contradicts itself for Paul made it abundantly clear in many places, but we will look at Ephesians 2:8-10 “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

James even used the example of Abraham being justified, counted as righteous before God, by “believing”, which is in chapter 15 of Genesis; it wasn’t till chapter 22 that Isaac comes into the picture and James referred to that. The works Abraham did is not what justified Abraham before God, but the work of sacrificing Isaac was the visible evidence of Abraham’s “saving faith” before man, not God. Yet Abraham visibly shows his “saving faith” by the work given to him by God; thus giving testimony before men and giving glory to God.
Look again at verse 10 in Ephesians “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

Those who are truly “in Christ”; were given eternal life in Christ as a gift; as a result of receiving that gift; we do the works that God prepared beforehand so we will/would walk in them.

James and Paul complement each other, not contradict. Since “true faith” or any faith is not visible; the works, which we can see, complement the actual “true faith” before men and give testimony of God working in men and giving glory to God.

God bless all of you.**

 

[paul_c]

No, Paul, that was the message of the Law. But no one was saved by the principle of law. In fact, the Law was to lead those under it to Christ that they might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24; cf. Rom. 4:1-6). That’s why the Apostolic message was to “BELIEVE” and be saved.Catholicsm has no concept of “saved.” Hence, everything said in Scripture in regards to behavior is interpreted by you as a condition for your future salvation (“will be saved”). Salvation, to a Catholic, is a future “hope so” event based on many conditions which must be met in this life. Hence, no concept of “saved,” as in “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

Yes, to love God and love your neighbor was the message of the law. It was also the message of Jesus. Have you never read the Sermon on the Mount? Its all about loving God and Neighbor. and when Jesus was asked what it took to gain eternal life, he answered “follow the commandments”. And when he was asked what was the greatest commandment, he said " Love God with all your mind, all your heart, all your strenght and all your soul and to love your neighbor as yourself." Do you deny those points? When Paul said you can not be saved by following the law, he was pointing out that you have to do things for the right reasons. If you are doing things simply to avoid punishment, that is not enough. You need to be doing it out of Faith and Love.

Similarly your interpretation of what Catholics believe about salvation is false. We beleive that you are saved by grace through faith, just as you do. We beleive that except in extreme cases, this faith must first be demonstrated through baptism, a process by which grace is infused and you become a member of the church . But unlike you, we don’t believe that it stops there. You must live out your faith to stay in the state of Grace. . But for that Faith to have any meaning, you must love. If you fail to love, can you really be said to have faith? Truly, you must agree with this. How can a murderer or adulterer or rapist be said to have the spirit of God within him? Someone who will be saved, will act out of love and continue to do so until the day he or she dies. And yes, being imperfect creatures, we may fail in this. That is why you can sacramentally be reconciled and recieve graces.

You see, Catholics are all about action. We must take tangible, visible action to demonstrate our faith (be baptized). When we sin, we must take tangible, visible actions to be reconciled (sacrament of reconciliation). We must partake in the body of Christ (the eucharist) to acknowledge and gain the graces associated with Christ’s sacrifice. We must love our neighbors and love God to be saved. Christ taught this to the Apostles and they have taught this to us. Come into the light…

 

[SteveGC]

Faith, hope and love certainly should be the virtues of the saved believer, as Paul states in 1 Cor. 13:13; but the believer himself entered into his saved state (a concept not known to Catholicism) strictly “by grace through faith” in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8; cf. Acts 16:31). The saved (by grace through faith) are now called to “walk by faith” in the hope they now possess (eternal life) expressing it in love toward others, but especially toward the brethren. But our love is not the essence of Christianity but rather God’s love toward us by sending His own Son

So, moon…if the love Paul speaks of is only God’s love, not ours, why is it that in 1 Cor 13, Paul refers to “love” multiple times as being his (Paul’s) own love?

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

As vital and sacred, and indeed as necessary as God’s Love is for us to also love…Paul certainly is talking all about his own love here, not God’s. You claim he’s talking to “the saved” (I agree only inasmuch as they are believers and followers of Christ)…and not only that, you claim that Paul’s comments can ONLY be addressed to the “saved”. So, you mean all those who are assuredly, undoubtedly destined for heaven at the end of their lives are being exhorted by Paul to abide in Love as the most important virtue? Tell me, moon…why do “saved” people need exhortation? Please don’t try to tell me that Paul is not exhorting these “saved” people. The language is clearly of the tone of exhortation, and not simply informational. Remember, Paul even says that if he himself has not love, HE GAINS NOTHING. This doesn’t sound like he’s absolutely assured and confident that he (nor his “saved” audience) will always inevitably have or adequately express love, now does it?

moondweller:

there’s no concept of “saved” in Catholicism.

You keep saying this. It’s interesting. Let’s be more specific, yes? There is no concept of 100% absolute assurance of eternal life in heaven while one is still alive on earth in Catholicism. That’s the only thing you can say, md. We certainly have a “concept of saved”. Catholics, through Christ, wrote the book on it, don’t ya know? In fact, we know much more than you, because we put it into practice all the time. All you do is preach about it…but all you know personally and practically is that you said a heart-felt prayer one time in your life, and that was “saved” for you. Devout Catholics experience salvation ALL THE TIME…and hence are much more qualified to speak of it than someone who believes they were “saved” a long time ago through one prayer they uttered. I’m not saying you didn’t genuinely have a heart-felt, authentic conversion…I’m just saying that “saved” for you, being a past, remote, one-time only event in your life, limits your capactity to speak about salvation. Would you leave us alone, md…if we all told you that we’ve had at least one authentic moment of conversion (like your sinner’s prayer) in our lives? We all have, you know? We’ve done that…and so we’re saved brother…just like you (apparently). So…why all the fuss? Do you think that our heartfelt moment wasn’t true? If so, what do you know about us that allows you to say that? Is it because, to you, we don’t show fruit of the Spirit…so we must’ve not been genuine in our initial conversion in faith? How presumptuous.

 

[Tomster]

When it comes to salvation I (nor the Apostle Paul) am in a race. Salvation is not a reward but a gift: “…a gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast”

And, it must stated, that an individuals ultimate salvation or damnation does not occur until the split second AFTER one takes their last breath. And, yes, a person’s works will be taken into consideration at that moment.

It’s called the particular judgment.

 

[Tomster]

Actually supernatural adoption is mentioned several times by St. Paul with the proper legal term of the language of the Temple. Thus in his letter to the Romans 8:15: “For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear: but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry Abba (Father)” (cf. Eph. 1:5; Gal. 4:5). The term evokes the current concept of juridical adoption usually defined as: a gratuitous assumption of an outside person as son with the right of inheritance. This human adoption is a moral substitute of natural filiation, which creates a right in the adopted person without changing his physical nature or personality. The adoption spoken of in Holy Scripture transcends the natural order and therefore also the natural concept of common adoption, with which it agrees only analogously. In fact, man, who by faith answers Christ’s call, according to the documents of revelation, is enriched by sanctifying grace, which establishes between creature and God a relationship of paternity and sonship by virtue of spiritual regeneration which resolves itself into an ineffable participation of the very nature of God. Cf. John (Prologue of the Gospel): “He gave them power to be made the sons of God”: 2 Peter 1:4: “He hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature.”

Supernatural adoption therefore means an intrinsic transformation of the soul, a vital divine communication, which makes man domesticus Dei, i.e., a member of the divine family (Eph. 2:19), like to God in being and action. In the ancient litugy and in the writings of the Fathers divine adoption is a dominant motif: the Greeks especially (St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St Cyril of Alexandria) illustrate the relationship between our adoptive filiation and the natural filiation of Jesus Christ with respect to the Father, and prove that the one is the effect of the other. The Scholastics go deeper into this truth (cf. St. Thomas), and after the Council of Trent the theologians fix the expression of this truth in these terms: adoption is a formal effect of sanctifying grace by which the faithful become sons of God, and so brothers of Jesus Christ, their Coheir of eternal life.

I know it is safe to say that the above memtioned Fathers and Saints and the participants at the Council of Trent under the protection of the Holy Spirit “searched the Scriptures.”

MD,

Actually, this is what the Bible, the authentic teaching magisterium of the Church and Sacred Tradition have to say on the matter, not one individual’s, man-made, fallible opinion.

 

[Tomster]

This is well stated!

When, then, if that’s the case, can a person be a absolutely sure he is saved?

 

[SteveGC]

** I’ll try to remember that, but don’t you ever do that again either; you have done that on some occasions yourself.**

Can you show me where I have replied within someone’s quote box?

** I said you need to focus on the message, not the messengers; that is quite different that to say totally ignore the messengers. you admit that you are happy to emphasize the messengers; that is not surprising since that is what my point is. **

This message vs. messenger thing is absolutely ridiculous, Tanner. You’ll resort to any word-games to try to prove we don’t follow Christ, won’t you?

CHRIST is BOTH the messenger AND the message. It is the PERSON of Christ that came first…not the good news written down regarding His coming. Both He (the messenger) and what we now know about Him (the message) are equally vital…get rid of one of them, and there is NO Christianity. The only reason the apostles (and their successors) are vital also as messengers is because CHRIST chose them, taught them, and gave them the Spirit of God. These are our messengers (under Christ as the prime messenger) that we emphasize…right along side the equal emphasis given to the MESSAGE. Can we agree finally on this, and move on?

** You said the following: “As such you erroneously believe that Scripture now exists as the sole, stand-alone source of the faith…but it isn’t.”** I believe the Protestan Bible is the special revelation, Word of God, given to man for wisdom and knowledge of salvation in Chris and sufficient for spiritual faith and practice. I also believe there is no other special revelation, as opposed to general revelation (i.e creation), given to us by God. You seem to believe this is incorrect; if so what is the other special revelation given to us by God and how do you know it is from God?

So, you believe a Bible which was edited and “corrected” 1200 years after it was canonized is the right one…OK, fine (obviously you have a limited understanding of canonical history)…but OK. Regardless, your “sole sufficiency” theory is mentioned nowhere in Scripture. Later today I want to go back to your explanation of why you think the verses in Timothy allow you to make that claim…more later.

And no, I don’t believe there has been more revelation since the deposit of faith was given by Christ to The Church. What I believe is that Scripture must be accompanied by the authentic inspired body of people who were entrusted to deliver the message within it unto all the world…this accompaniment is not merely intellectual or symbolic…it is a real and present existence of a divinely inspired institution, successive to the apostles themselves. God knows that humans learn from other humans, this is why he inspired MEN and not PENS. The pens wrote the inspired words only because the MEN were inspired. But God never intended, nor is it true that, this select group of inspired humans would cease to exist, cease to accompany the inspired words they wrote, after those words were all written down. Not accepting this fact is your singular most fatal flaw.

** What about trusting in His promises; like receiving the Holy Spirit at the moment you believe in your heart. He would give the Spirit of Truth to lead and guide the individual to wisdom , understanding and discernment of His truth. Do you trust Him when He says there is but one name given to us for intercession and do you show that trust by being a doer? **

Yes, I do trust Him and yes, I try to be a doer. Careful, you’re awfully close to admitting that we have work we MUST DO. The Holy Spirit is certainly a guide for all the faithful, leading us to Christ, and helping us grow in wisdom and understanding. But you take it a step too far, Tanner. You think this gift extends into a capacity for any individual to discover for themselves absolute truths (doctrines) of the faith by guiding them through their reading of Scripture. We’re not to read Scripture in that way. Truth has been revealed…all of it…all the doctrines…they’re not hidden away in Scripture for the lone believer to try to uncover. It’s been with us for 2000 years…it’s no secret. The role the Spirit plays for us regarding Scripture is one of a revealer of the APPLICATION of these revealed truths to our personal, unique lives. We don’t come up with how we’re saved by reading Scripture on our own…that’s been revealed to the Church long ago. Rather, we’re to receive guidance on how to remain in the faith, how to live our lives in cooperation with grace, and largely to simply meditate prayerfully in the word with the Spirit abiding in us. When you try to define dogma yourself when you read, you go against what the Spirit is trying to do with you.

And Tanner, scripture does NOT validate itself…and here’s why…

you think that it validates itself because the context of the entire book support a certain theory or statement of the faith…IOW, “such-and-such” is true because the rest of Scripture agrees with it. That’s baloney…because all of the verses and passages are interpretations…the one you are citing directly…as well as the ones you use to support the original one. All of them are interpretations, subject to your own biases and intellect prone to human error. No book, inspired or not, validates itself. People validate things. Things don’t validate things…even if that “thing” is a living sacred text. Something outside of something else must validate that something else.

** What do you know about Gods will for our lives? Is His will the same for ours (MD & I) as it is yours? **

This is not about God’s will for YOUR LIVES. This is about God’s Will for the handling of His Gospel to the world. It is clearly NOT His will to have it miscontrued, twisted and presented falsely. That is what I am warning you about.

Are you deluded into believing your Church is not fragmented and a majority of the “faithful” are of the cafeteria variety, particularly in the US? I can’t think of one that is not; maybe you are the exception. It is not just now; it is its history, but this is true with all churches because they have humans that make up the church; just don’t delude yourself, which I don’t think you really are.

Stay on target, Luke. This is not about sinful man…this is about Spirit-protected declaration of truth regarding faith and morals. The sins of man are not going to stop God from ensuring the doctrines based on His teachings are preserved for all time (something about the gates of Hell not prevailing)

 

[Tomster]

Can you show me where I have replied within someone’s quote box?

This message vs. messenger thing is absolutely ridiculous, Tanner. You’ll resort to any word-games to try to prove we don’t follow Christ, won’t you?

CHRIST is BOTH the messenger AND the message. It is the PERSON of Christ that came first…not the good news written down regarding His coming. Both He (the messenger) and what we now know about Him (the message) are equally vital…get rid of one of them, and there is NO Christianity. The only reason the apostles (and their successors) are vital also as messengers is because CHRIST chose them, taught them, and gave them the Spirit of God. These are our messengers (under Christ as the prime messenger) that we emphasize…right along side the equal emphasis given to the MESSAGE. Can we agree finally on this, and move on?

So, you believe a Bible which was edited and “corrected” 1200 years after it was canonized is the right one…OK, fine (obviously you have a limited understanding of canonical history)…but OK. Regardless, your “sole sufficiency” theory is mentioned nowhere in Scripture. Later today I want to go back to your explanation of why you think the verses in Timothy allow you to make that claim…more later.

And no, I don’t believe there has been more revelation since the deposit of faith was given by Christ to The Church. What I believe is that Scripture must be accompanied by the authentic inspired body of people who were entrusted to deliver the message within it unto all the world…this accompaniment is not merely intellectual or symbolic…it is a real and present existence of a divinely inspired institution, successive to the apostles themselves. God knows that humans learn from other humans, this is why he inspired MEN and not PENS. The pens wrote the inspired words only because the MEN were inspired. But God never intended, nor is it true that, this select group of inspired humans would cease to exist, cease to accompany the inspired words they wrote, after those words were all written down. Not accepting this fact is your singular most fatal flaw.

Yes, I do trust Him and yes, I try to be a doer. Careful, you’re awfully close to admitting that we have work we MUST DO. The Holy Spirit is certainly a guide for all the faithful, leading us to Christ, and helping us grow in wisdom and understanding. But you take it a step too far, Tanner. You think this gift extends into a capacity for any individual to discover for themselves absolute truths (doctrines) of the faith by guiding them through their reading of Scripture. We’re not to read Scripture in that way. Truth has been revealed…all of it…all the doctrines…they’re not hidden away in Scripture for the lone believer to try to uncover. It’s been with us for 2000 years…it’s no secret. The role the Spirit plays for us regarding Scripture is one of a revealer of the APPLICATION of these revealed truths to our personal, unique lives. We don’t come up with how we’re saved by reading Scripture on our own…that’s been revealed to the Church long ago. Rather, we’re to receive guidance on how to remain in the faith, how to live our lives in cooperation with grace, and largely to simply meditate prayerfully in the word with the Spirit abiding in us. When you try to define dogma yourself when you read, you go against what the Spirit is trying to do with you.

And Tanner, scripture does NOT validate itself…and here’s why…

you think that it validates itself because the context of the entire book support a certain theory or statement of the faith…IOW, “such-and-such” is true because the rest of Scripture agrees with it. That’s baloney…because all of the verses and passages are interpretations…the one you are citing directly…as well as the ones you use to support the original one. All of them are interpretations, subject to your own biases and intellect prone to human error. No book, inspired or not, validates itself. People validate things. Things don’t validate things…even if that “thing” is a living sacred text. Something outside of something else must validate that something else.

This is not about God’s will for YOUR LIVES. This is about God’s Will for the handling of His Gospel to the world. It is clearly NOT His will to have it miscontrued, twisted and presented falsely. That is what I am warning you about.

Stay on target, Luke. This is not about sinful man…this is about Spirit-protected declaration of truth regarding faith and morals. The sins of man are not going to stop God from ensuring the doctrines based on His teachings are preserved for all time (something about the gates of Hell not prevailing)

Way to go! Good job!

 

[QuickCat]

A Catholic, Protestant, or a non-believer can insure heaven for him/herself by simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved - Acts 16:31. The moment one does that he is eternally secure by the sealing of the Holy Spirit - Ephesians 1:13. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all on the cross. Salvation is of God; your/my works do not enter into the equation. The god [small ‘g’] of this world will tell you that all of the above is too simple, you must work for your salvation, etc. He is lying to you! I pray that everyone who reads these words has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and is now a joint heir with Him and a child of God eternally.

 

[Tomster]

A Catholic, Protestant, or a non-believer can insure heaven for him/herself by simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved - Acts 16:31. The moment one does that he is eternally secure by the sealing of the Holy Spirit - Ephesians 1:13. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all on the cross. Salvation is of God; your/my works do not enter into the equation. The god [small ‘g’] of this world will tell you that all of the above is too simple, you must work for your salvation, etc. He is lying to you! I pray that everyone who reads these words has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and is now a joint heir with Him and a child of God eternally.

Your position has been refuted many times on these boards.

 

[paul_c]

A Catholic, Protestant, or a non-believer can insure heaven for him/herself by simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved - Acts 16:31. The moment one does that he is eternally secure by the sealing of the Holy Spirit - Ephesians 1:13. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all on the cross. Salvation is of God; your/my works do not enter into the equation. The god [small ‘g’] of this world will tell you that all of the above is too simple, you must work for your salvation, etc. He is lying to you! I pray that everyone who reads these words has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and is now a joint heir with Him and a child of God eternally.

I’m sorry QuickCat, but you have misinterpreted scripture and are in error.

think about this for a second:
Who is more inclined to have you to do good works (and therefore loving God and Neighbor)? is it God or Satan.? What possible motivation would Satan have to induce us to do good works? on the other hand What possible motivation would Satan have to make you believe that Jesus has done everything and that there is no reason for you to do anything other than to believe?

Truth be told: there is no inconsistency between believing in Jesus and doing what he described in his ministry through his words and actions: Love God and each other. If you don’t follow his example and do God’s will, how can you call yourself a Christian? How can you demonstrate your belief.

 

[Tomster]

A Catholic, Protestant, or a non-believer can insure heaven for him/herself by simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved - Acts 16:31. The moment one does that he is eternally secure by the sealing of the Holy Spirit - Ephesians 1:13. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all on the cross. Salvation is of God; your/my works do not enter into the equation. The god [small ‘g’] of this world will tell you that all of the above is too simple, you must work for your salvation, etc. He is lying to you! I pray that everyone who reads these words has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and is now a joint heir with Him and a child of God eternally.

Actually, salvation is not guaranteed by faith alone.

What does in profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? . . . So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead . . . You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:14, 17, 24

Not every one who says to me, ’ Lord, Lord, ’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

“And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who perseveres to the end will be saved.” - Matthew 24:12-13