How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[holy_moly]

Quote:
Pardon me for asking this Tanner, but are you adult with a post High School level of education? I don’t want to sound too hard on you here but your lack of depth of reasoning maturity casts considerable doubt on if I am wasting my time here pointing out all the errors. Or is all this superficial insight just arrogance? I know that Jesus told us that God can speak wonders out of the mouth of babes but I think you are caught in the gap somwhere. Just some feedback - you sound like a teenager who is all pumped up with that newer version of that “old time religion” that you might of picked up from a self-styled protestant “preacher” and are just re-parroting in these forums. Is your dad a fundamentalist preacher? Be honest…

Thanks for the mature and Christ-like insults; may I have some more please.

Can dish it out, but not take it tanner Remember the following post to me?

QUOTE=Tanner9188;5501866]What are you doing here? Are you just young and in your early teens or twenties? I ask because you have no depth in your responses whatsoever. You say read the catechism; I say read the Bible. You have not refuted anything and need James and now Church Militant to assist you; so why are you here? Maybe to learn? Then it would be better to observe rather than to throw out whatever it is you throw out w/o any attempt of support. I’m sure you can lean much about the Roman way if you observe these two and i might also add Guanophore to the list as well.

 

[SteveGC]

"Tomster:

Way to go! Good job!

Thanks, Tomster

I’m sorry QuickCat, but you have misinterpreted scripture and are in error.

think about this for a second:
Who is more inclined to have you to do good works (and therefore loving God and Neighbor)? is it God or Satan.? What possible motivation would Satan have to induce us to do good works? on the other hand What possible motivation would Satan have to make you believe that Jesus has done everything and that there is no reason for you to do anything other than to believe?

Truth be told: there is no inconsistency between believing in Jesus and doing what he described in his ministry through his words and actions: Love God and each other. If you don’t follow his example and do God’s will, how can you call yourself a Christian? How can you demonstrate your belief.

Indeed. Let’s ponder the notion of Satan, the father of deceit, the one who desires more than anything for us to deny God…and what lie he would tell us to pull us away…

a) Christianity is a lifelong journey requiring our perpetual cooperation with the limitless mercy and grace of God…or
b) Christianity is reduced to a one-time heartfelt belief that is uttered from our lips, and that’s the end of the story.

A rudimentary understanding of human motive will clearly reveal that “b” is the lie he would use.

 

[Tomster]

Thanks, Tomster

Indeed. Let’s ponder the notion of Satan, the father of deceit, the one who desires more than anything for us to deny God…and what lie would he tell us to pull us away?..

a) Christianity is a lifelong journey requiring our perpetual cooperation with the limitless mercy and grace of God?..or
b) Christianity is reduced to a one-time heartfelt belief that is uttered from our lips, and that’s the end of the story.

A rudimentary understanding of human motive will clearly reveal that “b” is the lie he would use.

Exactly.

We are like survivors of a shipwreck in a storm out in mid-ocean. We’ve been rescued from drowning and welcomed onboard the ship we call the Church. That ship is now taking us to safe harbor - our home in heaven with God.

But we are not home yet!

You could say, then, that we have been “saved” in the sense of being rescued and taken aboard a safe vessel. But we can’t really speak of being “saved” in the full sense until we reach our destination. We must humbly admit that we haven’t yet arrived at final perfection.

Meanwhile, we also must recognize the sobering possibility that - God forbid - we could choose someday to jump overboard again.

Salvation isn’t guaranteed just because of something we’ve done in the past. We continue to have free will, which is part of God’s likeness in us. So we still have the ability to turn away from God again.

It’s a chilling possibility. But it shouldn’t make us perpetually worried that we’ll be damned despite our best efforts to grow in grace. We can be confident that God desires our salvation, and He’s faithful to help us. If we are tempted to forsake Him, He’ll grant us the power to resist the temptation.

Even so, the choice is still ours.

In fact, we make choices every day that draw us closer to God or lead us farther away from Him. That’s why simply believing in Jesus is not enough. Friendship with God, like friendship of any kind, is more than just getting acquainted. It involves making a series of choices to love, over the long term, so that a committed relationship grows.

Faith is useless, then, without good works. God must have our cooperation, because both our minds and our wills - the full likeness of God - must be renewed if we’re to be saved in the end.

 

[Tomster]

Thanks, Tomster

Indeed. Let’s ponder the notion of Satan, the father of deceit, the one who desires more than anything for us to deny God…and what lie he would tell us to pull us away…

a) Christianity is a lifelong journey requiring our perpetual cooperation with the limitless mercy and grace of God…or
b) Christianity is reduced to a one-time heartfelt belief that is uttered from our lips, and that’s the end of the story.

A rudimentary understanding of human motive will clearly reveal that “b” is the lie he would use.

Thanks for restating this again. I mentioned basically the same thing to James in my reply to him in post # 683 on this thread.

 

[brb2]

**

Since infusion is not used in Scripture and you claim “Catholics have thousands of scriptures to support INFUSION.” then provide 3 passages that support infusion of saving grace;.**

#1 … 2 Cor. 13:5 " Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is IN YOU ? — unless you fail to meet the test !

Tanner, my man .... 'man up' to the fact that Paul teaches that J.C. must be 'Within you' by INFUSION of his H.S.    It does not say OVER you, or AROUND you ... or even Round & about you.   Imputation teaching does not convey the INDWELLING of H.S. concept.  Christ lives within his Elect ... not from outside his temple converts.

#2 … 2 Cor. 6:16 " … For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live IN THEM and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Now Tanner .... does one worship Inside or Outside of a temple ?   Clearly, Paul is stating that God lives within him and the rest of the Church's Christians.   God claims no Earthen temple for his home .... except that Christ dwells within his Church body of believers.

#3 … 2 Cor. 1:21-22 But it is God who establishes us with you IN CHRIST, and has commissioned us; he has put his Seal upon us and given us his Spirit IN OUR HEARTS as a guarantee.

The elect are not given an ‘external’ Imputed seal. Rather, the sealing of H.S. is by INFUSION of grace. Tanner, to be Reborn … you need a new heart. A heart transplant must occur. Your old fleshy heart, from your father Adam, must be surgically removed. Christ must heal/transform your heart, by miracle INFUSION of spiritual grace. Only then will J.C. take up residence within the new convert. The healing blood of Calvary’s Cross can only be received by Spiritual ‘Intravenous’ INFUSION of GRACE.

And you wonder why the Church receives the Body & Blood of Christ INTERNALLY. Christ didn’t ask us to pour [impute] the Cup over our heads … You must drink [infuse] from the cup a grace shared in common, by all of faith, who perceive / receive it rightly ].

 

[brb2]

in Catholicism … That’s called salvation by works. The Apostle Paul calls it a "different gospel*.

"

Give us Chapter and Verse on your FALSE assertion. Back up your errant charge !

Lets see if Paul really is saying Catholics are teaching a salvation of legalistic, OT type circumcision type works Works claimed, apart from grace of Christ ]. Your accusing Catholics of being those who were preaching a ‘different gospel’ to the mythical protestant church of 1st Century is ludicrous.

 

[paul_c]

Give us Chapter and Verse on your FALSE assertion. Back up your errant charge !

Lets see if Paul really is saying Catholics are teaching a salvation of legalistic, OT type circumcision type works Works claimed, apart from grace of Christ ]. Your accusing Catholics of being those who were preaching a ‘different gospel’ to the mythical protestant church of 1st Century is ludicrous.

This is what Paul said about people like Moondweller and Tanner at the end of his life in a warning to St. Timothy ( 2Timothy4)
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power:
2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.
3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers
4 and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

 

[Tanner9188]

I’m sorry Moodweller, but you are wrong here. Move up to Romans 2: 5-16 and you will see what Paul says about sin separating man from God:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

Jesus actually said more than that about those that hear him didn’t he: here’s what Matthew recorded in 7: 21-27:
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

You see Moondweller, there is ample scriptural evidence that Jesus expects acts of love from those that will be saved. It is the Devil, acting through men that propagates the philosophy that all you need to do is believe and you will be saved. But God, who is love, requires love from those that will join him in heaven. Faith alone is not enough. And lets be clear, love must be based on faith. But Love is still the fundamental requirement.

Hey Paul,

MD is speaking about believers; a Christian. What makes a person a Christian; the forgiveness of their transgressions against God at the moment they first believed the gospel. Paul, in Romans 8:31-end, is speaking of Christians invincibility, in being separated and reconciled to God through Christ and His love for His children - AKA Christians.

Sin separates the unregenerate from God; but those who sins have been forgiven are those who put their faith and hope in the person of Christ. This is the reason some people are actually and really Christians.

Matthew 7:21-27 Again these are in reference to people who are unregenerate; MD specially referred to Christians.

Why is it I come into this post and saw this particular post and saw exactly what MD is iterating within seconds and yet you were not able to recognize, understand and respond to MD’s point. Then you gave Scriptural evidence to prove your lack of understanding.

It is on the basis of faith by grace in God; both in the OT and the NT, God does not change how He saves people. Anyone who claims that God does change how He saves His redeemed; makes Him a liar and proves themselves to be ignorant of His truth, His character and His attributes IMO.

Sorry MD, but I could not overlook the gross error and folly.

God bless both of you…as you were…LOL

 

[guanophore]

Would heaven be in agreement with your assessment?  Why?  Is it because the power is in the messenger or in the message?

Binding and loosing has to do with legislating. It is a matter of authority, not “message” or “messengers”.

You see some believe the power to loose and bind is unique to special messengers; like Peter or the apostles. But is this really what the Bible teaches?

The power to bind and loose relates to authority. It is given to those whom Jesus authorized to have it. They passed this authority on to their successors.

The bible does not “teach”, Tanner. People teach. Teaching is an activity conducted by persons who are able to exercise will and action and take responsibility. There are a lot of people that think the Bible is actually a Person, and that the book “teaches”. In reality, they are making themselves into the authority.

What is this authority that allows or permits the messenger to deliver the message; is it not divine in origin?  Is the message from heaven?

Most of those who are delivering “messages” are not authorized to do so. They sent themselves, or were sent by others who had no authority.

Of course Matthew 18 verifies that you as a lay person can indeed do what is obvious, practical and commanded.

Certainly there are actions that are authorized to all by virtue of baptism. Binding and loosing (exercising divine authority over the flock) is not among them.

If you look at James (“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”) and believe he is making the point against faith alone, then what do you do with the apparent contradiction of Paul in Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
How do you reconcile these? Scripture must validate Scripture as you rightly said. So we know we are missing something here; so if you can figure it out, it is like a riddle or a puzzle. I will give you a clue as to unravel the mystery. In reference to James; does God need to see a mans works to know if God himself justified the person?

I doubt anyone could say God “needs” anything from us. He set it up so that we are responsible to demonstrate to Him by our actions that we have faith. Many evangelicals insert into scripture here that this has to do with being justified in “the eyes of man”. However, all the scriptures are clear that being justified in the sight of others should be of no concern to us at all.

see what other parts of Scripture say concerning “faith” and “works”. Let me know what you find; I look forward to hearing from you and enjoy yourself; for you are searching through the voice of God.

Blessings.

Works and faith go together like a hand in a glove. Without the hand, the glove does not move.

 

[guanophore]

Well; who can we trust 100% of the time without fail?

Only God. He is the only reason the Church is infallible.

Who is the true interpreter of Scripture?  They are one in the same.

Everyone who reads or hears it interprets. It is part of how the human mind understands sensory (name removed by moderator)ut. In this case, you are the one interpreting. No, you are not the same as God.

if the machine was the gospel, which is not that complicated, and the manual was the Bible with the instruction of the gospel and all the other things like practical godly living, then it would make sense to have creator of the machine to assist the individual in understanding the instruction manual and the machine.

Blessings!

It is not the gospel that is complicated, but people. The application of the principles of Christianity to the variety of human experiences requires and authority with discernment.

 

[SteveGC]

Hey Paul,

MD is speaking about believers; a Christian. What makes a person a Christian; the forgiveness of their transgressions against God at the moment they first believed the gospel. Paul, in Romans 8:31-end, is speaking of Christians invincibility, in being separated and reconciled to God through Christ and His love for His children - AKA Christians.

Sin separates the unregenerate from God; but those who sins have been forgiven are those who put their faith and hope in the person of Christ. This is the reason some people are actually and really Christians.

Hmm…ok, so you’re saying that these Christians Paul is addressing are invincible to the effects of sin, that they will not fall away because of their faith, even if they transgress. Well, I wonder why, earlier in that same chapter, in speaking to these same “invincibly saved” Christians, Paul uses language like this:
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, **if indeed **the Spirit of God dwells in you But **if **anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 **If **Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–

13 for **if **you ***are living ***according to the flesh, you must die; but **if **by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That’s an awful lot of IF’s Paul is using when addressing Christians who are supposedly invincible and inevitably bound for heaven. Seems clear to me that all of the invincibility of their faith and eternal destiny is quite conditional - based on IF they maintain their faith and continue to cooperate with the Spirit within them.

It is on the basis of faith by grace in God; both in the OT and the NT, God does not change how He saves people. Anyone who claims that God does change how He saves His redeemed; makes Him a liar and proves themselves to be ignorant of His truth, His character and His attributes IMO.

There’s that pesky IMO again. So, are you actually confident in what you’re preaching, Tanner…or must you always take care to allow for your infallibilty, your susceptibility to err, that IMO must be appended to your statements regarding the true faith? I mean, don’t get me wrong…I find it admirable that you ensure no one listening to you comes to the faulty conclusion that your interpretations of scripture, and your subsequent doctrinal conclusions, are protected by the Spirit of God against error. I’m just wondering if your use of IMO is your own personal acknowledgment of your fallibility regarding your positions on faith/salvation.

Still haven’t heard from you, by the way, in regard to the yes/no question I posed earlier. Is there any possibility that your beliefs and preaching of the faith contain errors? Any possibility that your take on salvation is wrong?

 

[guanophore]

Water baptism cannot save; otherwise god changes the way he saves from the OT to the NT and God has never changed the way He saves fallen man; so until you can understand that basic doctrine, you won't be able to discern this passage

Indeed, this discernment is exactlyhow we know that we are saved through water. Humans have always been saved by God’s grace. It was His decision to impart that grace through water.

You will not find a single instance where the Lord equates water baptism with salvation.

I guess we read it differently, don’t we?

How is it, do you suppose, that the HS was so weak that he left the Apostles too inept, and that they trained all their disciples that Jesus was talking about water? How was the HS so incompetent that He could not convince anyone until 1500 years after the fact that water was not included?

Don't you think that is just a little odd; if it were part of being saved?  Of course it is odd; something is not right there and it is because you are doing the interpreting and not the Spirit.

Tanner, the HS does not need to “interpret”. This is a human activity.

What does this passage say about when the eunuch received the holy Spirit? Nothing. He already had it at the moment he believed with his heart and wanted to do the first act of obedience, which is be water baptized and that is just what he did

The Apostles taught that the HS was given at baptism.

There is no record of it in Scripture except Paul. He got a little testy and voiced a strong statement that Jesus did not send him to Baptize by to proclaim the gospel. Could not have been part of salvation for Paul to say that with such strong conviction.

Paul never separated water baptism from the gospel message,and neither did any of his disciples.
Tanner9188;5613957:

if Jesus baptized anyone; the Bible says specially He did not; which is further evidence to the truth I am expositing. But do not take mine or anyone else’s word for it; search the Bible. Look at Luke 3:16 and Matthew 3:11; there you might see the truth.

Jesus gave extensive training to His Apostles about baptizing, because they were the ones who were going to be doing it.

 

[guanophore]

Faith, hope and love certainly should be the virtues of the saved believer, as Paul states in 1 Cor. 13:13;

“should be”? So, it is your position that a person can be saved, and yet not have these virtues abiding in him?

but the believer himself entered into his saved state (a concept not known to Catholicism) strictly “by grace through faith” in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8; cf. Acts 16:31).

Once again you are bearing false witness against the Catholic Church, Moon. On the contrary, the Catholic Church teaches that the newly baptized are born again to an imperishable inheritance, and that they are completely saved by God’s grace, through faith, based upon the sacrificial work of Christ on the Cross.

If you were intellectually honest, you would acknowledge this.

   But our love is not the essence of Christianity but rather God's love toward us by sending His own Son:1 John 4:10 "*In this is love, **not that we loved God***, **but that He loved us and sent His Son** {to be} the propitiation for our sins."This selfless love is the essence and message of God and true Christianity.

The Apostles taugth that God wants to shed His love abroad in our hearts, so that it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us.

Actually, you’re stating the essence of the Law which is to love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and you neighbor as yourself. But no one is saved by the principle of law. No one can be saved BY loving God and others. One is saved BY God and that “by grace through faith.” If, as you say: “To be saved we must love God and love one another,” then you are preaching a salvation based on law, personal merit. Love toward God and men should be the spiritual result of true salvation, a testament of one’s salvation, but it’s never the cause of it - according to the Scriptures.

We are able to walk according to the law of love because God’s grace is in us, willing and working His good will. The grace that saves us is the same grace that produces His love in us. It is not human merit, but His working in us to His glory.

 What you fail to understand, Paul, is that 1 Cor. 13:13 is written to those who ARE saved. For the saved, yes, faith, hope and love are to abide (love being the greatest).

It is interesting that the letters are written to Christians when it is convenient to your theology, then suddenly they are written to unbelievers when they are not (as in the case of Heb. 6).

Cor 13:12-13 There’s no uncertainty here.

When Catholics say “hope of salvation”, you seem to see “uncertainty”. This is not consistent with what the Apostles taught.

 But here's your problem, Paul, there's no concept of "*saved*" in Catholicism.

You are bearing false witness against Catholics, Moon. On the contrary, the Catholic conception of being saved is trifold.

So everything you read addressed to believers about conduct in the Scriptures is interpreted by you as a *condition* for a future salvation.

Not everything…

However, we don’t discount the lessons Jesus taught as applicable only to the Jews, as some of our Reformed brethren have represented here.

IOW, in Catholicism your future salvation (whatever that means to you) is contingent on your present behavior. That’s called salvation by works. The Apostle Paul calls it a “different gospel.”

No, Moon, contingencies do not equate to human works. For example, here is a contingent statement:

“If you believe with your heart, and confess with your mouth, you will be saved”.

One cannot fulfill these contingencies without the grace of God. It is God who created these contingencies. He knows what is best for His creatures.

 

[Tanner9188]

Oh really !!! In your dreams If it is not in scripture, it’s not a fact … so you would tell us.

Show us the scripture to support your dream concept of your pre-repentance justification …or else admit you are presuming upon the grace of God, and teaching a false Gospel.

There are many Paul in the Bible, but I will give you one in the hope you will search the Scripture to see if you can see other places where this same truth is verified by Scripture. There are several places in both the NT and OT; for God does not change the way He has redeemed man since the beginning.

Romans 8:29-30 -
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[guanophore]

don’t you ever do that again either… Please do not put words in my mouth;

Gettin’ a little testy, aren’t we?

I think your ad hominem attack when I pointed out to you that CAF is not provided as a venue for you to convert “lost Catholics” into bible christians demonstrates that your evangelistic agenda is being challenged.

 .  I believe the Protestan Bible is the special revelation, Word of God, given to man for wisdom and knowledge of salvation in Chris and sufficient for spiritual faith and practice.

Well, of course you have to believe that! Otherwise, your integrity would compel you to return to the scriptures used by the Apostles, and to the doctrine taught by them, that contradicts this principle.

 I also believe there is no other special revelation, as opposed to general revelation (i.e creation), given to us by God.

Ultimately, this position invalidates your NT, since it was by God’s special revelation outside of the canon that penned, preserved, canonized and promulgated Scripture.

You are also saying that God’s revelation of Himself manifested in the Church, testified to by Scripture, does not exist.

 so what is the other special revelation given to us by God and how do you know it is from God?

That divine deposit of faith given to the Church.

What about trusting in His promises;

We do! That is why we take Him at His word when He promised the HS to guide the Church into all truth!

 He would give the Spirit of Truth to lead and guide the individual to wisdom , understanding and discernment of His truth.

This promise is given to the Church. Individuals can benefit from it to the extent that they are in unity with those to whom the promise was given - the Apostles and their successors.

So should we then call Paul a liar when He spoke of the Bereans?

No, we should understand that what made them noble was that they received the Apostolic message with all eagerness. This is what you have rejected.

Should we than call Jesus a liar when He told the Jewish authorities: "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"

We should recognize that He is upbraiding and scolding the Pharisees in this passage. He is reprimanding them for looking for the answers in the scripture, and not in Himself.

 I would argue that if you can't search the Scriptures on your own and identify the truths;

Of course people can, and do it every day! that is why there are so many different interpretations of them. One for every navel!

I does not negate receiving help via a pastor, bible study, commentaries or other tools, but with the tool used it still must be compare to Scripture for authentication.

This is not the method taugth by the Apostles.

What do you know about Gods will for our lives? Is His will the same for ours (MD & I) as it is yours?

MD has been clear that “true believers” are to love brethren in the faith (which Catholics are not) more especially than everyone else.

Are you deluded into believing your Church is not fragmented and a majority of the “faithful” are of the cafeteria variety, particularly in the US?

The Church is not fragmented,a s she is pure and undefiled by the power of the HS. However, I do agree with you that many of the sinful persons attached to her are fragmented. Most of those practicing “cafeteria variety” have separated themselves from the church by mortal sin, and have actually become Protestants, but don’t realize it.

It is not just now; it is its history, but this is true with all churches because they have humans that make up the church;

Such conception of the Church is deficient. The Church is not just made up of humans. If this were the case, then she would not be infallible.

 

[guanophore]

Since infusion is not used in Scripture and you claim “Catholics have thousands of scriptures to support INFUSION.” then provide 3 passages that support infusion of saving grace; otherwise don’t bring you foolish statements my way. Thanks and God bless you a bunch.

I cannot support the “thousands” claim, but it is Apostolic teaching that the HS is indwelling. Perhaps we have a semantics problem with the word “infusion”?

Rom 5:5
God’s love has been** poured into **our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.

The Apostles taught that this occured in baptism.

Acts 22:16
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

In baptism, sins are washed away, we call upon His name, and we receive the HS.

Acts 9:17-18
17 So Anani’as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

This “being filled” is called by the Latins “infusion”.

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

Yes, to love God and love your neighbor was the message of the law. It was also the message of Jesus.

It was the message of Jesus to those who were at that time still under the covenant of Law (Israel). Remember what Jesus said concerning His earthly ministry?Matt 15:24 "But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."It wasn’t until AFTER His sacrificial death, burial and bodily resurrection, He inaugurating a new covenant in His blood, that the message of salvation by grace through faith in Him alone went out to both Jews and Gentiles. He, the Man Christ Jesus, a Jew, fulfilled the covenant of Law which Israel was under. Only one Man ever loved God with all His heart, soul and mind, and His neighbor as himself. In fact the Law defined sin (the 10 Commandment) and exposed the sinner for all the sinner he is, and its purpose was to lead those under that covenant to Christ that they may be justified by faith:Gal 3:21-26 “Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God (how? - through assembly line baptism? NO!) through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Have you never read the Sermon on the Mount?

Countless times. Have you gouged both your eyes out yet? How many limbs have you cut off? To whom did Jesus preach this sermon? Did He preach it before or after His sacrificial death on the cross? Where in the Book of Acts or in the Epistles is it recorded that the Apostles took the content of this sermon to the world as the basis for salvation?

Its all about loving God and Neighbor.

He goes way beyond that.

and when Jesus was asked what it took to gain eternal life, he answered “follow the commandments”.

He told that to a Jew still under the covenant of Law.

And when he was asked what was the greatest commandment, he said " Love God with all your mind, all your heart, all your strenght and all your soul and to love your neighbor as yourself."

Yes, but no one ever was, or ever is, or ever will be saved by Law. Paul, Someone greater than Moses has come; He fulfilled the Law with its condemning Commandments engraved on stones, which could not impart life, and are called a “ministry of death” (2 Cor. 3:7-10). You who self-impose the Law are no different than Jews of the first century:2 Cor 3:15-16 "But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."There’s only one way to remove that veil, Paul.

Do you deny those points? When Paul said you can not be saved by following the law, he was pointing out that you have to do things for the right reasons. If you are doing things simply to avoid punishment, that is not enough. You need to be doing it out of Faith and Love.

No. Paul understood very well that the Law ENDED. It began with Moses and ended with Christ. The new covenant in His blood is not an extension of the old, but replaced it. A Jewish Man, born under the Law, fulfilled it and in Himself accomplished redemption for all who believe in Him (Gal. 4:4-5).

Similarly your interpretation of what Catholics believe about salvation is false. We beleive that you are saved by grace through faith, just as you do.

You do not. If you did we wouldn’t be having this debate.

We beleive that except in extreme cases, this faith must first be demonstrated through baptism, a process by which grace is infused and you become a member of the church.

Yes, you believe Rome when it says at baptism “sanctifying grace” is infused into the soul which reintroduces the person into a “state of grace” which Adam lost back in the Garden. And it is then the burden of the baptized to sustain this so-called “state of grace,” this infused “sanctifying grace,” throughout his lifetime in order to be accepted by God at the time of his “particular judgment,” which occurs immediately at the time of death. IOW, there is no concept of “saved” (a past, completed action of God) for the Catholic in this lifetime. No assurance of forgiveness of sins (the Apostolic message, through faith) or the GIFT of eternal life (the Apostolic message as well as Christ’s, through faith).

But unlike you, we don’t believe that it stops there. You must live out your faith to stay in the state of Grace.

Exactly what I just stated. This, my friend, is salvation by works.

 

[guanophore]

Can you quote a verse that says “Catholic Church”, “Roman Catholic Church”, “Catholic Priest”, “Immaculate conception”. “Perpetual virginity”, “Pope”, “Purgatory”, “Petrine succession”, “succession”, “Vicar of Christ”, “Pray to a saint”, “Rosary”. “Mary Queen of Heaven”, “Magisterium”, “Pontificate”, “Absolution by a priest”, “Mass”, “Original sin”, Infant baptism", “deposit of faith”, “Indulgence”, “co-mediatrix” etc etc etc

No. The Church founded by Christ preceeded the NT, and is not dependent upon it. Besides, most of these words are derived in the Latin Rite over the course of many centuries. The canon of scripture was closed in 382.

If you really are interested in learning how these beliefs are reflected in scripture, you can learn that here. However, it seems clear that you are not here for “Catholic answers”,but to pander your evangelical agenda.

ace alone by Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone is justification and because the word "alone" is not after phrases "by faith" or similar and frequent phrases; is implicit and given the very frequent use of the phrase gives further evidence and strong implicitness and by the lack of any other conditional next to the frequently used phrase is even stronger evidence of the implicitness.

I find it curious that your theology is acceptable to be found “implicitly” in scripture, but ours is not.

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

But for that Faith to have any meaning, you must love. If you fail to love, can you really be said to have faith? Truly, you must agree with this.

Love is a fruit of the Spirit who indwells all who “have been saved by grace through faith.”

How can a murderer or adulterer or rapist be said to have the spirit of God within him? Someone who will be saved, will act out of love and continue to do so until the day he or she dies.

“Will be saved,” Paul? There you go, no concept of “saved” in Catholicism. Murderers, adulterers and rapists are not saved, but any murderer, adulterer or rapist can be saved “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone - baptism itself does nothing.

And yes, being imperfect creatures, we may fail in this. That is why you can sacramentally be reconciled and recieve graces.

“Graces” (a non-Biblical concept) reconcile no one to God. The true believer has been reconciled to God through Christ, and Christ alone (2 Cor. 5:18-19; Rom. 5:10-11). In sacramental Catholicism there are many reconciliations, many salvations, many justifications. But not so in the Word of God. Not so for the murderer, the adulterer, the rapist who, convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit, believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, and was born again to a new and living hope in Him (not “hope so”).1 Cor 6:9-11 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. **Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”**All in the past tense, not present continuous. All true believers, no matter what their background, are washed clean of their sins, sanctified in Christ, and justified (reckoned righteous) in Christ Jesus. You see, Paul, it’s God who saves, and He saves a sinner, no matter how bad, completely and once for all. Because of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross He has the power to do so. All that Christ accomplished on the cross is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of personal belief in Him (not baptism).Rom 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "but the righteous shall live by faith.”

 

[brb2]

Indeed, this discernment is exactly how we know that we are saved through water. Humans have always been saved by God’s grace. It was His decision to impart that grace through water.

The Apostles taught that the HS was given at baptism.

Paul never separated water baptism from the gospel message,and neither did any of his disciples.

Jesus gave extensive training to His Apostles about baptizing, because they were the ones who were going to be doing it.

Tanner …

  G-4 answered your comment that "Water Baptism does not save" with the above apologetics.

A question for you [and Moondweller] …

Have you desired/received Trinitarian Water Baptism, as commanded by Christ ? If not, why not ?