How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Tanner9188]

#1 … 2 Cor. 13:5 " Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is IN YOU ? — unless you fail to meet the test !

Tanner, my man .... 'man up' to the fact that Paul teaches that J.C. must be 'Within you' by INFUSION of his H.S.    It does not say OVER you, or AROUND you ... or even Round & about you.   Imputation teaching does not convey the INDWELLING of H.S. concept.  Christ lives within his Elect ... not from outside his temple converts.

#2 … 2 Cor. 6:16 " … For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live IN THEM and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Now Tanner .... does one worship Inside or Outside of a temple ?   Clearly, Paul is stating that God lives within him and the rest of the Church's Christians.   God claims no Earthen temple for his home .... except that Christ dwells within his Church body of believers.

#3 … 2 Cor. 1:21-22 But it is God who establishes us with you IN CHRIST, and has commissioned us; he has put his Seal upon us and given us his Spirit IN OUR HEARTS as a guarantee.

The elect are not given an ‘external’ Imputed seal. Rather, the sealing of H.S. is by INFUSION of grace. Tanner, to be Reborn … you need a new heart. A heart transplant must occur. Your old fleshy heart, from your father Adam, must be surgically removed. Christ must heal/transform your heart, by miracle INFUSION of spiritual grace. Only then will J.C. take up residence within the new convert. The healing blood of Calvary’s Cross can only be received by Spiritual ‘Intravenous’ INFUSION of GRACE.

And you wonder why the Church receives the Body & Blood of Christ INTERNALLY. Christ didn’t ask us to pour [impute] the Cup over our heads … You must drink [infuse] from the cup a grace shared in common, by all of faith, who perceive / receive it rightly ].

At least you tried to make you point using Scripture, but you will not find infusion of grace in any message of the NT or OT. Taking “in Christ” to mean infusion is a gross imposition onto Scripture.

 

[Tanner9188]

This is what Paul said about people like Moondweller and Tanner at the end of his life in a warning to St. Timothy ( 2Timothy4)
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power:
2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.
3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers
4 and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

Hey HolyMoly,

This is exactly what I referred to earlier; but I have the full armor of God; therefore the darts just bounce right off. I count this as joy!

God bless His Word!

 

[paul_c]

Tom, did you search the scripture to see if I was right or wrong? Why not?

2 peter 3 - (Here Peter puts all of Paul’s teaching and writings on par with sacred writings)

"14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. "

What is Scriptures? a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture
The word “wrote” in verse 15 is the same word used in verse 16 “Scriptures” - “graphē”

It is not limited to what was written at that time; but also the oral teachings uttered by the Holy Spirit though men. Today we have it in the written form and we are greatly blessed if we are diligent to take full advantage of our position.

You show great faith by taking things at less than face value; much greater than mine.

You see, you can’t avoid the Catholic view, even though you tell others not to. Here you recognize Peter’s ability to define what is scripture, don’t you. You see, the Catholic view is unavoidable, because it is the truth.

 

[moondweller]

SteveGC:

md, please describe for us this “time of personal belief”…the time at which one is instantaneously destined for heaven.

I mean, how do you explain this to the unregenerate when they ask you what level of belief is necessary? What precisely IS “heart-felt” belief in terms of defining the transitional moment where one moves from unsaved to saved?

I would explain nothing to an unregenerate (a psuchikos, a natural man). I would present to him the gospel of Jesus Christ by which, through faith, he could be saved and receive the free gift of eternal life. I would simply explain to him that, according to the Scriptures, as the “Lamb of God” the Man Christ Jesus died a sacrificial death FOR his sins that were, at that time, imputed to Him on the cross, and that He died, once for all, TO his sins, and rose bodily to new life on the third day. And that he would receive the “GIFT” of salvation by believing in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ on his behalf. I can do no more. At that point it’s up to that person to believe the gospel message. Just as Paul and his companions responded to the Philippian jailer when he asked: "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"Acts 16:31 "They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,”

Is it just a “you’ll know it when it happens” sort of thing? Is that how you describe it to someone…“you’ll know because the Spirit of God will affirm it to you”…?

As I said. I don’t explain anything of the sort to an unregenerate. However, when an unbeliever turns from his unbelief and believes the gospel message concerning Christ, sin, the gift of salvation and eternal life, at the time of true belief he is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and having been made spiritually alive he knows he’s saved. He’ll then grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ and his salvation through other born again believers who have the gift of teaching and studying the written Word of God which reveals all “…the things FREELY given to us by God” (1 Cor. 2:12).

Certainly you would agree that there are varying levels of belief, and not all of them warrant the authenticity of “being saved”, right?

I do not! I would not be asking him to become a Mason. There are no “levels” of belief in respect to salvation. There are, however, “false brethren” who have professed belief. These are the “tares” planted among the wheat by the enemy (Matt. 13:24-30)2 Cor 11:26 “{I have been} on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from {my} countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;”

Gal 2:4 “But {it was} because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.”

Can someone possess merely the emotional fear of hell in them, and submit to a fear-based, self-willed level of belief in Christ, confess Him and invite Him into their heart, and be born again (saved)?

I don’t know what you mean by “self-willed.” But if this one is in fear of Hell because he now understands the gravity of his sinful state having been convicted by the Holy Spirit of sin and judgment, and after hearing the gospel message of Christ regarding his sins, believes in Christ, yes, then of course, he is at that moment gifted salvation by God (Eph. 2:8-9) and created a new creature in Christ (v. 10). One of the works of the Holy Spirit coming into the world is to convict the world of judgment (Jn. 16:8). That would result in a healthy fear of Hell. Which would be a very good and effective reason for turning from unbelief to belief in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, salvation and eternal life.

On the flip-side, can it be an emotional desire for eternity in a blissful heaven, and a subsequent sinners prayer?

Yes, certainly. If the prayer was rooted in belief in the Person and sacrificial work of Christ on his behalf. It’s the belief in Christ, however, through which God saved him, not the prayer.

Or must it be based on a genuine, heart-felt love of Christ?

No one is saved through a “love of Christ.” Salvation is divinely gifted through FAITH in Christ. Salvation based on one’s “love of Christ” is the Catholic “gospel.”

How much belief is necessary to be born again in your theology, and be 100% assured of eternal life in heaven?

It’s not a quantity of belief, but quality. Assurance of eternal life is based on divine revelation, the written Word of God (see for instance, Jn. 3:14-18; Rom. 6:23; 1 Jn. 5:9-13). True faith also results in believing God’s Word as revealed in Scripture. A false faith argues against it.

Forgive all the questions related to this…but I wanted to be sure you understood what I’m asking…and I sincerely presumed that a “once saved always saved” advocate would be very capable of thoroughly explaining the truest essence of the “once saved” part.

The “once saved” is based on divine revelation. It’s understood when one believes first the gospel message of Christ and then what God has said concerning the believer’s saved state through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ as revealed in the theopneustos Scriptures. As He said to the prophet Jeremiah:Jer 1:12 "Then the Lord said to me, "You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it."And Peter wrote to his fellow Jewish believers:2 Pet 3:18 “…but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him {be} the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”

 

[paul_c]

Tanner, Moondweller, Quickcat,

For months we have been discussing the nature of salvation using scripture to no avail. When we show you that scripture demonstrates that you need to do the will of God to enter heaven, you simply wave it away, with excuses like, " that was only meant for the saved" or " you don’t understand the context". I have come to the conclusion (which I should have recognized months ago) that using scripture to explain something to you is worthless because you are already in the habit of making scripture say whatever you wish. Such is the weakness of sola scriptura and individual interpretation.

So lets go about this a little differently. Let’s go through a few basic questions.

You have a problem with the Catholic view that we need to do the will of God to enter heaven because you think it somehow diminishes the work of Jesus on the cross.

But consider the alternative: if we aren’t doing the will of God, whose will are we doing? our own? Satan’s? Isn’t it in fact, obvious that those that will go to heaven would be doing the will of God? Because isn’t it also obvious that if we are to be saved, we will have the spirit of God within us, which will compell us to do the will of God?

Also, what is the point of personal morality, if it has no effect on salvation. Why did Jesus bother to preach, if all that mattered was his personal sacrifice?

Why did Jesus bother gathering disciples around him if his intention wasn’t to build a visible church?

If his goal was to simply have people learn about salvation from a book, why didn’t he write one personally?

Why did he bother to get baptized, if baptism is to no effect? Why did he bother to train his Apostles to baptize? Why did St. Peter instruct the first converts to be baptized at Pentecost, if baptism was in fact meaningless?

Why does virtually every epistle have a section on how to live the Christian life, if the only thing required is to believe that Jesus saved us by dying on the Cross and personal morality is ineffectual?

Why do Protestants evangelize, if God has already picked the elect and personal decisions have nothing to do with it?

How do you explain how a person who has acknowledged Jesus and thus has been born again, turns around and subsequently commits a heinous crime? How is this possible for the elect?

How do you deal with the issue of Free will? If man is either pre-ordained elect or reprobate, can he have free will? If he doesn’t have free will, how do you explain the choices you personally know you make every day?

Its not necessary that you answer these if you don’t want to. The questions themselves make the point…

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hey HolyMoly,

This is exactly what I referred to earlier; but I have the full armor of God; therefore the darts just bounce right off. I count this as joy!

God bless His Word!

Don’t confuse a thick noggin or a defect of reason as the armor of God. No doubt Invincible Ignorance serves God in some mysterious way but only a bone-head would imagine that he can put ignorance or obstinacy on and off like a yarmulke and protect himself from reason. The next regression from here is to start hearing inner voices and then join to the tin-foil hat club.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...//tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:K8R8paByMxTFBM:riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/tinfoil_hat_girl.jpg


James

 

[holy_moly]

Hey HolyMoly,

This is exactly what I referred to earlier; but I have the full armor of God; therefore the darts just bounce right off. I count this as joy!

God bless His Word!

Tanner, all you have is the full armor of your delusions that you are the arbiter of truth, not the Church that Christ established through Peter et al. Do you really believe that you have some special knowledge from God & over 1 billion Catholics have been in error the past 2000 yrs? Are you really at peace w/ your personal theology? I am sure you have thrown more darts than have bounced off you.

Obviously it does no good to play bible roulette w/ you or anyone else. We will all continue to believe what we believe. If you really are a direct spigot for the HS, I pray that he will imbibe you w/ The Truth. Catholics are called to do corporal acts of mercy, one of which is confronting error in our fellow man. Like all other Catholics on this site, I KNOW that I follow the truth & not my own interpretations of that truth.

 

[CentralFLJames]

As I said. I don’t explain anything of the sort to an unregenerate. However, when an unbeliever turns from his unbelief and believes the gospel message concerning Christ, sin, the gift of salvation and eternal life, at the time of true belief he is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and having been made spiritually alive he knows he’s saved.

Folks, I do believe Mr. Moondweller has landed with an earth shattering revelation and admission here. By arguing with Catholics for 2 years he has apparently conceded through the evidence of his laborious perspiration that works do save and all Catholics here through suffering his point of view in his persistent speaking to us are “regenerate” and therefor “saved”. Bravo - we don’t need to wait for God’s judgement since clearly MD was sent here to tell us this. In his own words “I don’t explain anything of the sort to an unregenerate.” I think we should take this as a rare compliment and prophesy and as “close enough” to an admission that Catholics are indeed saved.

Bravo - I just knew that if the power of God could make Balaam’s donkey speak then it was just a matter of time before that same power would lend the gravity to bring Moondweller back down to earth and admit these truths.

Shall we now expect MD to now renege and backslide?

James

 

[moondweller]

Folks, I do believe Mr. Moondweller has landed with an earth shattering revelation and admission here. By arguing with Catholics for 2 years he has apparently conceded through the evidence of his laborious perspiration that works do save and all Catholics here through suffering his point of view in his persistent speaking to us are “regenerate” and therefor “saved”. Bravo - we don’t need to wait for God’s judgement since clearly MD was sent here to tell us this. In his own words “I don’t explain anything of the sort to an unregenerate.” I think we should take this as a rare compliment and prophesy and as “close enough” to an admission that Catholics are indeed saved.

Bravo - I just knew that if the power of God could make Balaam’s donkey speak then it was just a matter of time before that same power would lend the gravity to bring Moondweller back down to earth and admit these truths.

Shall we now expect MD to now renege and backslide?

James

I’m only debating Catholic doctrine on these forums. Do you know the difference between evangelizing and debating? Apparently not. Got a dictionary handy? I’m not allowed to evangelize you Catholics. You’re happy with where you’re at.

 

[brb2]

As I have said; all of you have greater faith than I do.

SIZE]

If true, shouldn’t this FACT cause you to have more respect for Catholics and their Church ?

Afterall, for a Protestant … salvation all boils down to Faith Alone

Come break bread and share our ‘common cup’ each Sabbath … and let your faith grow to Catholic proportions.

 

[brb2]

I’m only debating Catholic doctrine on these forums. Do you know the difference between evangelizing and debating?

Yes, we do. And we know when one always plays the ‘devils advocate’.
Come out from the ‘dark side’ of the moon … and adsorb some SONlight.

If only you belonged to a Church, for whom you loved to evangelize. :hug3:

 

[SteveGC]

Tanner, from what I am gathering from your and moondweller’s posts, I am starting to really hate your version of the Gospel.

If I am not mistaken, what you are saying in this post is that no human currently alive and no organization can teach infallibly the Gospel. According to you, each Christian teaching heard by a Christian must be validated by him/her guided by the Holy Spirit against the Holy Bible, so that he/she’ll get the correct version of the Gospel. Correct?

My goodness Tanner, do you know what you are saying? You are cutting off the Gospel from the Lord’s most beloved people, the POOR and the UNEDUCATED! The majority of the people on earth do not have the intelligence to analyze the Holy Bible as we are doing now. Heck, there are many people who CANNOT even READ! And there are so many people who cannot even AFFORD a Bible! And consider how it was much worse centuries ago.

Moreover, your answer has no reassurance. Tanner, you yourself say that you could be wrong

Where is “the Truth Teacher” in all this, Tanner? Why didn’t He correct you? Why didn’t He guide you so that you can be assured of not being wrong in the first place?

And if even you cannot reassure us that your way of accepting guidance from the Holy Spirit is infallible, then what is going to assure us that when we follow your direction we will not twist the Scriptures to our own destruction?

Tanner, my goodness, your gospel is no good news.

Again I am off for two days for work. In the meantime Tanner, moondweller, examine your beliefs carefully. They are going to condemn you if you do not change.

God bless.

Yes indeed. This is precisely where I was going with Tanner, nuntym. Thank you…well said. Especially the part I enlarged above.

Tanner, please address this post…this is related to my question to you that you never answered…regarding whether or not you could be in error.

You tell us to “search the Scriptures” to see if what you say is true, and if we find through this searching that what you say is NOT true, then you want us to tell you so that you may be corrected and find truth for yourself. Well, guess what…we’ve been doing that since you joined in on this discussion, Tanner.

Quite disingenuous. I suppose you left out the part that you will only be “corrected” if what we reveal to you matches what you already believe?

So, can you be wrong or not?

 

[brb2]

Can you show me in Scripture where it talks about “gracious works?” needed for salvation?

But I have yet to find where any man is ever saved (or, to Catholics its, “being saved”) by ANY works at all, “gracious” or otherwise.

Lets let ST. Paul answer you with HIS OWN PROOF TEXT You do read & accept all that Paul writes, don’t you ?

2 Cor. 8:1-7 We want you to know, brethren, about the GRACE of God which has been shown in the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a WEALTH OF LIBERALITY on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints — and this, not as we expected, but first they gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God. Accordingly we have urged Titus that as he had already made a beginning, he should also complete among you this GRACIOUS WORK. Now as you excel in everything — in FAITH, in utterance, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in your love for us — see that YOU EXCEL in this GRACIOUS WORK also.

---

Md … focus on the last verse, same as the first

As the Corinthians were being taught by Paul to excel in [FAITH, utterance, knowledge, earnestness, and Love] … they were ALSO being instructed by Paul to ‘excel’ in ANOTHER Gracious Work, namely Charity [Wealth of Liberality of Alms Giving].

Thus, the CONTEXT of verse 7, indentifies for us that [Love, earnestness, knowledge, utterance, and FAITH] are ‘also’ GRACIOUS WORKS.

FAITH Alone saves … right ??? FAITH is a GRACIOUS WORK of God in us. — unto SALVATION.

If Md can accept such a WORK. Context, Context, Context of scriptures is Key … my friend. Saving Faith CANNOT be separted from Gracious Works. Its not either/or … its BOTH

Checkmate :yup: Paul proves Md in ERROR. Argue with us if you must … but, will you now argue with St. Paul ???

 

[Tanner9188]

Binding and loosing has to do with legislating. It is a matter of authority, not “message” or “messengers”.

You see SteveGG; you guys can’t even agree on what Scripture means; Gunaphore says it is legislation type of matter of authority and nothing to do with a message or messengers.

Which really adds to the confusion. All you all sure you belong to the 1700 year unified church where the teaching hasn’t changed in 1700 years? Some mystical bubble you live in IMO - its insanity!

The power to bind and loose relates to authority. It is given to those whom Jesus authorized to have it. They passed this authority on to their successors.

Despite the simple and practical and realistic “what really happens in the observable world”; you still bury you heads in the sand; my gosh.

Perhaps this will help explain and open your eyes to what God really said.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5621793&postcount=54
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5621796&postcount=55

The bible does not “teach”, Tanner. People teach. Teaching is an activity conducted by persons who are able to exercise will and action and take responsibility. There are a lot of people that think the Bible is actually a Person, and that the book “teaches”. In reality, they are making themselves into the authority.

Yep; solid “straw-man” argument and against the “Living, Enduring, and God Breathed Word of God”. Wouldn’t want to be in shoes of the person who puts up such a argument against God.

Most of those who are delivering “messages” are not authorized to do so. They sent themselves, or were sent by others who had no authority.

Playing God are we; judging who God has sent and who He has not. Wouldn’t want to be in those shoes either.

doubt anyone could say God “needs” anything from us. He set it up so that we are responsible to demonstrate to Him by our actions that we have faith. Many evangelicals insert into scripture here that this has to do with being justified in “the eyes of man”. However, all the scriptures are clear that being justified in the sight of others should be of no concern to us at all.

Perhaps you then agree with Luther to remove the Epistle of James? I’m almost certain you will not get that.

Works and faith go together like a hand in a glove. Without the hand, the glove does not move.

If the glove does not fit, then you must acquit? What happens if the glove falls off the hand? Doesn’t gravity make it fall unless it is already on the ground? If so wouldn’t that imply some type of movement away from the hand to the ground? Just thinking 7 lightening things a little - humor.

Anyway; we agree but not is the same way; the Bible teaches believers that saving grace is imputed to the person that believes the true gospel of grace; this is on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ. He was nailed to a cross because God decided to publicly display His glory in Him and secondarily save a mass of humanity by crediting Jesus righteousness to the accounts of those humans, the Father has called to receive this free gift of grace.

The resulting justification will be shown to the world because He prepared before the foundation of the world to have these humans do some good things to further give Him praise and glory to be a testimony of His mercy and righteousness to all the world. This is why it is all of grace; we are merely secondary to the eternal redemptive plan.

There are many groups out there that like to change His grace into something other than divine mercy by adding works or meritorious activities; such as rituals and traditions and/or sacraments and other religious activities they claim adds and “cooperates” to His “saving grace” that results in removing the “free” out of the "free gift"of grace. These ungrateful and Gift rejecting religious people claim to be partial givers of His gift; coming from within themselves through their works, thus denying the glory do to the true Giver.

But, this Father gave to His Son the right to judge and He is merciful, but He is also just and has authority to exercise His justice by pouring out His anger onto the devils and sons of disobedience; thus giving Himself glory. So whether He is being merciful or being just; His glory will be on display.

There comes a day in every mans life where he/she must chose which path or side they are on. If they make the wrong decision; then the anger of God will be poured out onto each individual that chose to reject or pervert the “free gift” of grace and He will be glorified in His wrath against them. For He has promised justice and is faithful to His Word.

To the few that make the correct choice; accept the gift of grace on His terms. These are the one’s who found that small gate and trods on the narrow path; He has adopted these and called them sons and daughters and has a place like no man can imagine and no eye has seen and He is preparing it for His children; He will be worshiped and praised forever by His children and they all lived happily ever after and the disobedient Christ rejecters lived miserably ever after. Amen!

 

[Tanner9188]

Hmm…ok, so you’re saying that these Christians Paul is addressing are invincible to the effects of sin, that they will not fall away because of their faith, even if they transgress. Well, I wonder why, earlier in that same chapter, in speaking to these same “invincibly saved” Christians, Paul uses language like this:
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But **if **anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 **If **Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–

13 for **if **you ***are living ***according to the flesh, you must die; but **if **by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That’s an awful lot of IF’s Paul is using when addressing Christians who are supposedly invincible and inevitably bound for heaven. Seems clear to me that all of the invincibility of their faith and eternal destiny is quite conditional - based on IF they maintain their faith and continue to cooperate with the Spirit within them.

There’s that pesky IMO again. So, are you actually confident in what you’re preaching, Tanner…or must you always take care to allow for your infallibilty, your susceptibility to err, that IMO must be appended to your statements regarding the true faith? I mean, don’t get me wrong…I find it admirable that you ensure no one listening to you comes to the faulty conclusion that your interpretations of scripture, and your subsequent doctrinal conclusions, are protected by the Spirit of God against error. I’m just wondering if your use of IMO is your own personal acknowledgment of your fallibility regarding your positions on faith/salvation.

Still haven’t heard from you, by the way, in regard to the yes/no question I posed earlier. Is there any possibility that your beliefs and preaching of the faith contain errors? Any possibility that your take on salvation is wrong?

I don’t believe so; but since I allow Scripture to verify itself before bringing it to you and I am fortunate enough by the mercy of God to be given the Holy Spirit before I was water baptized. You need to search the Bible to see if it is true. If it is not, then state your reason and supporting information so we may be corrected.

If this then Christian, if not then not a Christian. Simple simple
You don’t understand why sin is not in that wonderful doxology; it is because Paul is speaking of Christians and if you are a Christian; then your sins have been forgiven by the Man that died on the cross; are you blind?

I am confident in God and His promises, one is this; He would give His Spirit guide and lead a person to discern the meaning and truths of His word. You don’t believe that promise IMO and observation.

IMO is CYBack

 

[Tanner9188]

Gettin’ a little testy, aren’t we?

I think your ad hominem attack when I pointed out to you that CAF is not provided as a venue for you to convert “lost Catholics” into bible christians demonstrates that your evangelistic agenda is being challenged.

Well, of course you have to believe that! Otherwise, your integrity would compel you to return to the scriptures used by the Apostles, and to the doctrine taught by them, that contradicts this principle.

Ultimately, this position invalidates your NT, since it was by God’s special revelation outside of the canon that penned, preserved, canonized and promulgated Scripture.

You are also saying that God’s revelation of Himself manifested in the Church, testified to by Scripture, does not exist.

That divine deposit of faith given to the Church.

We do! That is why we take Him at His word when He promised the HS to guide the Church into all truth!

This promise is given to the Church. Individuals can benefit from it to the extent that they are in unity with those to whom the promise was given - the Apostles and their successors.

No, we should understand that what made them noble was that they received the Apostolic message with all eagerness. This is what you have rejected.

We should recognize that He is upbraiding and scolding the Pharisees in this passage. He is reprimanding them for looking for the answers in the scripture, and not in Himself.

Of course people can, and do it every day! that is why there are so many different interpretations of them. One for every navel!

This is not the method taugth by the Apostles.

MD has been clear that “true believers” are to love brethren in the faith (which Catholics are not) more especially than everyone else.

The Church is not fragmented,a s she is pure and undefiled by the power of the HS. However, I do agree with you that many of the sinful persons attached to her are fragmented. Most of those practicing “cafeteria variety” have separated themselves from the church by mortal sin, and have actually become Protestants, but don’t realize it.

Such conception of the Church is deficient. The Church is not just made up of humans. If this were the case, then she would not be infallible.

Sorry, but my time is valuable and I have given you enough of it and you just keep on parroting the same repetitive garbage showing total and nearly absolute ignorance of God, his Character, His attributes and his church.

Plus I’m real tired of your foolish accusations about evangelizing unless you define that as laying the light of God’s word in the forum. It is God that changes hearts, not man, but since to have objected to Gods word being posted by me on several occasions; you can remain in your sin until such time you repent, when you are completely broken before God and cry out for mercy like the Publican. You are now officially on my “ignore list”; there is nothing more I can add for your benefit and if i continue I will be guilty before God for throwing His perles to someone who shown disregard for His word IMO.

 

[SteveGC]

You see SteveGG; you guys can’t even agree on what Scripture means; Gunaphore says it is legislation type of matter of authority and nothing to do with a message or messengers.

Which really adds to the confusion. All you all sure you belong to the 1700 year unified church where the teaching hasn’t changed in 1700 years? Some mystical bubble you live in IMO - its insanity!

Settle down, Beavis. That’s talking about a specific charism given the Church…authority to bind and loose. What you and I were discussing was the overarching theme of Christianity, the essence of Christ incarnate, and the Gospel message as they all relate to the Catholic Church. Guan will certainly agree that our discussion regarding all that does indeed equally involve the message and the messengers. Grasping at straws now, are we?

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner …

  G-4 answered your comment that "Water Baptism does not save" with the above apologetics.

A question for you [and Moondweller] …

Have you desired/received Trinitarian Water Baptism, as commanded by Christ ? If not, why not ?

Christ commanded two ordinances to His church; 1) water baptism; the first act of obedience and the 2) celebration of His death, burial and resurrection as remembered in the Lords Supper.

I have been baptized with water, the believers baptism. I do participate in the Lords Supper and beforehand I seriously examine myself to see if I am walking accordance to His will. Sometimes I have an issue that is not resolved; I will forgo the Lords Supper until I have resolution. This is to avoid participating in an unworthy manner.

I was told that I was sprinkled with water as an infant and had projectile vomit that landed on my godparent and the priest. I also had gas and was told I pooped my pants and it dripped out of the side of the diaper; cloth ones at the time. Must have been a sight and smell to witness…LOL

 

[Tanner9188]

Wow, there are lots to respond to

Anyways…

uch: Tanner, you could have avoided embarrassing yourself by reading the links we post in our responses, like this from my response. If you just read the beginning:

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus’ call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.

It is called the sacrament of Penance, since it consecrates the Christian sinner’s personal and ecclesial steps of conversion, penance, and satisfaction.

1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a “confession” - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.

It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest’s sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6

It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the love of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."7 He who lives by God’s merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord’s call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."8

Are you saying that anytime anyone (or at least any Catholic) says conversion, penance, confession, conversion, forgiveness, reconciliation he/she means always the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Conversion/Penance/Confession/Conversion/Forgiveness?

But anyways read Thing’s post to clarify this more. Thanks Thing

So based on the Catholic definition in light of the Biblical definition; are you going to directly answer the questions I asked or are you choosing to side step them? I already applied to “thing” erroneous view of Scripture and his apparent confusion concerning sackcloth. In other words; it does not address the questions.

God bless!

 

[Tanner9188]

md, please describe for us this “time of personal belief”…the time at which one is instantaneously destined for heaven.

I mean, how do you explain this to the unregenerate when they ask you what level of belief is necessary? What precisely IS “heart-felt” belief in terms of defining the transitional moment where one moves from unsaved to saved?

Is it just a “you’ll know it when it happens” sort of thing? Is that how you describe it to someone…“you’ll know because the Spirit of God will affirm it to you”…?

Certainly you would agree that there are varying levels of belief, and not all of them warrant the authenticity of “being saved”, right?

Can someone possess merely the emotional fear of hell in them, and submit to a fear-based, self-willed level of belief in Christ, confess Him and invite Him into their heart, and be born again (saved)? On the flip-side, can it be an emotional desire for eternity in a blissful heaven, and a subsequent sinners prayer? Or must it be based on a genuine, heart-felt love of Christ? How much belief is necessary to be born again in your theology, and be 100% assured of eternal life in heaven?

Forgive all the questions related to this…but I wanted to be sure you understood what I’m asking…and I sincerely presumed that a “once saved always saved” advocate would be very capable of thoroughly explaining the truest essence of the “once saved” part.

Thanks.

Are you asking what it means “to believe”? If so; then are you willing to spend 30 minutes or so to get the answer?