How does a non Catholic/Protestant define...'the Church?'

[whatevergirl]

I have been hearing this a lot on a radio program I listen to, the host not being Catholic. I love the show, it’s basically a parenting show, but at times, he will say…'We have to teach our kids to respect ‘the church,’ and other phrases that beg the question…what do Protestants mean by this? As Catholics, we believe that Jesus, in giving the keys to the kingdom to St Peter, wanted to build His Church on him. And thus the RCC came about…and we believe that this is the fullness of faith on earth, to worship through the Catholic Church. We believe as Catholics, that Peter was our first Pope. What are Protestants speaking of, when talking about ‘the church?’

Thanks, in advance, for your replies.

 

[Pokedaughter]

In order to answer your question I thought we could look at Christ’s definition of the church through the Scripture.
In Matt. 16:18 Jesus Christ states “**I **will build my church…” on what I believe was the faith of Peter (but not Peter personally, but that of course is a different thread. lol)

So… Christ builds His church, not man.

Luke also states this in Acts2:47 : “…**And the Lord **added to the church daily such as should be save.”

Summing up:
Paul writes in Ephesians1:22-23:

“He hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.” (don’t you just love that scripture!?!)

Based on these scriptures ‘*the church includes all those whom Christ died to redeem, all those who are save by the death of Christ.’ * (Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem)

(I think that is what the radio show would define as the church, but I would have to know which show you are listening to, to know what theology they are using.)

Hope that helps.

 

[whatevergirl]

In order to answer your question I thought we could look at Christ’s definition of the church through the Scripture.
In Matt. 16:18 Jesus Christ states “**I **will build my church…” on what I believe was the faith of Peter (but not Peter personally, but that of course is a different thread. lol)

So… Christ builds His church, not man.

Luke also states this in Acts2:47 : “…**And the Lord **added to the church daily such as should be save.”

Summing up:
Paul writes in Ephesians1:22-23:

“He hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.” (don’t you just love that scripture!?!)

Based on these scriptures ‘*the church includes all those whom Christ died to redeem, all those who are save by the death of Christ.’ * (Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem)

(I think that is what the radio show would define as the church, but I would have to know which show you are listening to, to know what theology they are using.)

Hope that helps.

Name of the show is Homeword, with Dr Jim Burns.

I believe he is non-denom, but he could be baptist…not 100% sure. But, I have heard non-denom, Baptist, Lutheran and other Protestant denoms say this phrase.

Here is a beautiful explanation by Father Corapi–

cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/corapi/jc10.html

 

[notsmart]

That is just one more example of how confusing learning about christians is. Well, so far now I cleared up a few terms that are different to all christians, now here is another. Its like a code language.

 

[Pokedaughter]

Name of the show is Homeword, with Dr Jim Burns.

I believe he is non-denom, but he could be baptist…not 100% sure. But, I have heard non-denom, Baptist, Lutheran and other Protestant denoms say this phrase.

Here is a beautiful explanation by Father Corapi–

cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/corapi/jc10.html

(I think your right. I would say Southern Baptist (vs. independent Baptist) by his Biographical info.)

I love the link you provided and the scripture reference where Christ asks Saul why he is persecuting Him (through the persecution of His believers.) I try and teach this to my girls. That when kids are mean to them and make fun of them, don’t take it personally, they are actually offending Christ, not them.

This has really helped my teenage daughter not get angry with the kids at school but to just let God handle it so she can be loving towards them and continue to be a good PR person for “the Church” (lol)

 

[TriuneUnity]

I have been hearing this a lot on a radio program I listen to, the host not being Catholic. I love the show, it’s basically a parenting show, but at times, he will say…'We have to teach our kids to respect ‘the church,’ and other phrases that beg the question…what do Protestants mean by this? As Catholics, we believe that Jesus, in giving the keys to the kingdom to St Peter, wanted to build His Church on him. And thus the RCC came about…and we believe that this is the fullness of faith on earth, to worship through the Catholic Church. We believe as Catholics, that Peter was our first Pope. What are Protestants speaking of, when talking about ‘the church?’

Thanks, in advance, for your replies.

From a Lutheran perspective, we believe that there is one holy Christian church, which is the temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:16) and the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:23; 4:12). The members of this one church are all those who are the “sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26). The church, then, consists only of believers, or saints, whom God accepts as holy for the sake of Jesus’ righteousness, which has been credited to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). These saints are scattered throughout the world. All people who believe that Jesus is their Savior from sin are members of the holy Christian church, regardless of the nation, race, or church body to which they belong.

We believe that this holy Christian church is a reality, although it is not an external, visible organization. Because “man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart” (1 Samuel 16:7), only the Lord knows “those who are his” (2 Timothy 2:19). The members of the holy Christian church are known only to God; we cannot distinguish between true believers and hypocrites. The holy Christian church is therefore invisible and cannot be identified with any one church body or with the total membership of all church bodies.

We believe that the presence of the holy Christian church nevertheless can be recognized. Wherever the gospel is preached and the sacraments are administered, the holy Christian church is present, for through the means of grace true faith is produced and preserved (Isaiah 55:10,11). The means of grace, therefore, are called the marks of the church.

 

[Contarini]

I have been hearing this a lot on a radio program I listen to, the host not being Catholic. I love the show, it’s basically a parenting show, but at times, he will say…'We have to teach our kids to respect ‘the church,’ and other phrases that beg the question…what do Protestants mean by this? As Catholics, we believe that Jesus, in giving the keys to the kingdom to St Peter, wanted to build His Church on him. And thus the RCC came about…and we believe that this is the fullness of faith on earth, to worship through the Catholic Church. We believe as Catholics, that Peter was our first Pope. What are Protestants speaking of, when talking about ‘the church?’

Thanks, in advance, for your replies.

I am of course not speaking for all Protestants, or even necessarily for all Anglicans, but here how I’d define the Church:

The worldwide fellowship of baptized believers in Jesus Christ, held together by the proclamation of the Word, the celebration of the sacraments, and the body of bishops in apostolic succession, chief among whom is the bishop of Rome. Division among baptized believers is division within and not simply away from the Church.

I am aware of the problems with this position. I struggle with it constantly. But I think there are problems with your Communion’s alternative as well.

Edwin

 

[notsmart]

Hi Triune Unity, you said something that I noticed is completely in contridiction to what some catholics keep saying in their posts that caught my eye.

Invisible church

Catholics keep saying its a visible church.

I am not sure what is meant by this.

 

[whatevergirl]

I am of course not speaking for all Protestants, or even necessarily for all Anglicans, but here how I’d define the Church:

The worldwide fellowship of baptized believers in Jesus Christ, held together by the proclamation of the Word, the celebration of the sacraments, and the body of bishops in apostolic succession, chief among whom is the bishop of Rome. Division among baptized believers is division within and not simply away from the Church.

I am aware of the problems with this position. I struggle with it constantly. But I think there are problems with your Communion’s alternative as well.

Edwin

I would have to say, Edwin, that I agree that it what I take the meaning to be meant by the host of this particular show, and other times when I have heard the phrase.

I wonder though, if when we as Catholics say ‘the Church,’ if we are also considering this, too…because when I think of The Church, with a capital C, I think of people separating themselves from Catholicism…like someone leaving the faith of being Catholic, or someone who is not following Church doctrine. But, when I hear such a host or a non Catholic say…so and so left the church, I also think he/she is implying that the person is not a practicing Christian…

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hi Triune Unity, you said something that I noticed is completely in contridiction to what some catholics keep saying in their posts that caught my eye.

Invisible church

Catholics keep saying its a visible church.

I am not sure what is meant by this.

I am not sure how Catholics take this as there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding. The reason we say it is invisible is because faith cannot be seen. We can only operate according to outward appearance, but we cannot see whether someone truly has faith in Christ, only God does.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi Triune Unity, you said something that I noticed is completely in contridiction to what some catholics keep saying in their posts that caught my eye.

Invisible church

Catholics keep saying its a visible church.

I am not sure what is meant by this.

We are the Church…Christ is the head of the Church…the Pope is our vicar of Christ on earth, but Christ heads His Church…we are the body. The Church that Christ founded is very much a human church, and thus ‘visible.’ I don’t think others are necessarily speaking of brick and mortar. .

 

[notsmart]

I am not sure how Catholics take this as there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding. The reason we say it is invisible is because faith cannot be seen. We can only operate according to outward appearance, but we cannot see whether someone truly has faith in Christ, only God does.

So, in order for a church to be called visible, it means all its members have to have faith, so then if anyone looses it, but continues to be in it (maybe out of habit, or other reasons like disagreement) then its no longer visible?

So catholics who say its visible are saying every member in their church is faith filled?

That does not seem like a reasonable thing to believe.

 

[whatevergirl]

I am not sure how Catholics take this as there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding. The reason we say it is invisible is because faith cannot be seen. We can only operate according to outward appearance, but we cannot see whether someone truly has faith in Christ, only God does.

True, but visible meaning…we, the followers of Christ, make up the body of His Church. Without people perpetuating the faith…witnessing…evangelizing…teaching the faith…it would end, eventually. I largely think this is why Jesus chose Peter to serve as His main leader…as our first Pope, so there would be some organized way for the followers to celebrate, and worship the faith. I know people don’t like the term ‘organized’ religion, but there needs to be some sense of order on earth, for following Christ. Even Christ’s choice of 12 Apostles shows that He wanted some ‘order’ to things…And it also shows that He wanted His followers to be his legs, arms, mouths, etc…here on earth, in His physical absence.

 

[TriuneUnity]

So, in order for a church to be called visible, it means all its members have to have faith, so then if anyone looses it, but continues to be in it (maybe out of habit, or other reasons like disagreement) then its no longer visible?

So catholics who say its visible are saying every member in their church is faith filled?

That does not seem like a reasonable thing to believe.

They probably do not mean that, notsmart. Nor do we mean that every single person in a congregation must be Christian in order for the church to be present. Where the marks of the church are present (the faithful preaching of the Word, and the right administration of the sacraments), the visible church is present. Regardless of how many people there possess faith.

 

[notsmart]

We are the Church…Christ is the head of the Church…the Pope is our vicar of Christ on earth, but Christ heads His Church…we are the body. The Church that Christ founded is very much a human church, and thus ‘visible.’ I don’t think others are necessarily speaking of brick and mortar. .

Hello, whatevergirl

I was not thinking brick and mortar actually at all. I knew it had to have some christian meaning to it, like a lot of other words that appear to be some kind of code only christians understand. Maybe better said, there a many words with theological meaning (hope I understand that word) and not all agree on the theological meaning. But, my goal is to understand these things, or else if I am talking to a christian I wont be able to follow the conversation.

 

[whatevergirl]

So, in order for a church to be called visible, it means all its members have to have faith, so then if anyone looses it, but continues to be in it (maybe out of habit, or other reasons like disagreement) then its no longer visible?

So catholics who say its visible are saying every member in their church is faith filled?

That does not seem like a reasonable thing to believe.

If one claims to love Christ and serve Him, he/she becomes part of the body of Christ. If a person chooses to not believe, follow, or worship the Lord–that person wouldn’t be part of the church, not because humans say so…but because it would seem logical that if a person doesn’t believe in serving God and His Son, then he/she wouldn’t want to be considered part of the church. or The Church. Sorry, I really don’t mean to confuse here!!!

 

[TriuneUnity]

True, but visible meaning…we, the followers of Christ, make up the body of His Church. Without people perpetuating the faith…witnessing…evangelizing…teaching the faith…it would end, eventually. I largely think this is why Jesus chose Peter to serve as His main leader…as our first Pope, so there would be some organized way for the followers to celebrate, and worship the faith. I know people don’t like the term ‘organized’ religion, but there needs to be some sense of order on earth, for following Christ. Even Christ’s choice of 12 Apostles shows that He wanted some ‘order’ to things…And it also shows that He wanted His followers to be his legs, arms, mouths, etc…here on earth, in His physical absence.

No disagreements with your basicpoints, whatever

I think it comes down to, we cannot claim that an organized group is the vsible church apart from the marks of it, because any grouping of organized people who claim faith, could actually be composed of non-believers. We would certainly give them the benefit of the doubt, but since only God knows their hearts, we cannot pass judgment one way or the other.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hello, whatevergirl

I was not thinking brick and mortar actually at all. I knew it had to have some christian meaning to it, like a lot of other words that appear to be some kind of code only christians understand. Maybe better said, there a many words with theological meaning (hope I understand that word) and not all agree on the theological meaning. But, my goal is to understand these things, or else if I am talking to a christian I wont be able to follow the conversation.

Hi notsmart…(I don’t believe you are not smart, but anyways!) lol

Are you not Christian? If not do you ever think you might be? Having a relationship with Christ, can be found outside of the Catholic Church–although, we Catholics believe that the Church was how Jesus intended, and it really is the fullness of the faith–not superior…but complete. I just wanted to throw that out there…and I don’t mean to go OT on my own thread!

 

[notsmart]

another thing, is I noticed some will say as whatevergirl did,

The Church

(I guess this would mean “The True Church” )

and church

meaning any christians

But, this does not imply the ones outside the “True Church” are not christians. Just christians in a church that makes no claim like that.

Whatevergirl, I am adding this in edit mode- as I just noticed your question to me.

I am an unbaptized non believer who is exploring christian beliefs, and am drawn by certain beliefs catholics have.

 

[TriuneUnity]

another thing, is I noticed some will say as whatevergirl did,

The Church

(I guess this would mean “The True Church” )

and church

meaning any christians

But, this does not imply the ones outside the “True Church” are not christians. Just christians in a church that makes no claim like that.

Whatevergirl, I am adding this in edit mode- as I just noticed your question to me.

I am an unbaptized non believer who is exploring christian beliefs, and am drawn by certain beliefs catholics have.

The only “True Church” is the invisible one composed of all believers in Christ, regardless of their denomination. It is this Church that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against, and to which the other promises Christ and the apostles give to the Church apply.

Having said that, the visible body of the Church can be recognized by its right doctrine and orthodox beliefs.