How does a Protestant or noncatholic follow John 4:23-24

[Deacon110]

Ever read Scott Hahns’ “The Lamb’s supper”?

Yes and I don’t agree with his summations.

 

[Deacon110]

Deacon110;3353485:

You know Deacon, I will continue to pray for you. I can put truth right in front of you and you work hard to get out of it, because it is Catholic doctrine and teaching. So you will have no part of it, thats ok, I am willing to have discussions with you, but right now the post is how do you worship in Spirit and Truth?, you answered, I know, but what you described from scripture, is not the way you worship, because if you did, you would be Catholic. Another thing is, because you read this scriptural reference to be worship, so do the other Non catholic denominations, and yet they are not in agreement with you on this.

Gabriel I appreciate that you will pray for me and I surely will pray for you

With respect to the truth I’ll say this. You can put the Roman Catholic’s perceived truth in front of me and yes I will reject components of their doctrine. But I will also say that the parts I reject are not relevant for my salvation.

As far as worship you are constantly trying to place a box around GOD when you claim that there is only one right way to worship HIM which is the Roman Catholic way. You may think that your practices are scripturally based but you are sadly mistaken. The Priest alone has to be celebant which is a direct contradiction to Paul’s letters to Titus. If what you do in worship satisfies you spiritually then great. That type of worship does not work for everyone. True worship has to come from the heart. I really don’t care which denominations agree with me or don’t agree with because GOD and only GOD knows what’s in my heart. I feel very fulfilled spiritually when I worship GOD at my church and in private. No one including you has the right to judge who is worshipping “correctly” as you say. Some Roman Catholics are so caught up in telling Protestants they are doing things wrong that they lose sight of Jesus in the process. You have enough to worry about for your own salvation let alone trying to worry about someone else’s. Trying channeling some of that criticism to non-believers.

As far as Roman Catholics, believing the same doctrine all over the world, for the last 2 millenium, is a fact. If you know of Roman Catholics who dont follow the Catholic doctrine like you, dont consider themselves catholic, or are not practicing Catholics, and if they are and still in opposition to the doctrines of the Catholic church, they dont know what they believe and need formal instruction, why dont you help your catholic friends and have them sign up for an RCIA refreshers course, this might help them/

You can try to state what you think is fact as much as you want. The bottom line is if you place all Roman Catholics in a room and then ask who is practicing and who is not you would probably lose half the room. With the people remaining that are self-proclaimed practicing Roman Catholics I guarantee you that if you list every single doctrinal belief you would have a large portion of the room admit that they didn’t even know that many existed. The remaining from there would probably admit that they don’t understand half of them. And from there the remainder would be split over who believes 100% and who doesn’t.

For every 5 who believe in the infallibility of the Pope, 10 don’t. For every 5 who believe in confession to a Priest, 10 either don’t or haven’t been in years. And so on and so on.

Saying you have 100% doctrinal unity means absolutely nothing when you don’t have 100% who believe in those doctrines. There’s a big big difference. But this can be said of Non-Roman Catholics and probably of any religion in the world. I work with Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc. and none of them will agree 100% across the board with their doctrines. It’s just impossible to think that exists. Trying focusing on your heart instead on the institutional religion you belong to.

PEACE

 

[Deacon110]

Non Serviam;3355046:

How about this? you explain how your community comes to worship God in Spirit and Truth, and I will tell you if it follows Sacred Tradition using Sacred Scripture. Then maybe you can get an understanding of the eternal realities that Jesus Christ established for his Catholic church.

I’ll do this for you Gabriel.

We enter to our chapel while spiritual and uplifting music is being played. Once the service begins we start with an opening song played by our band and we all stand in unison singing to our great GOD words that are both inspirational and very meaningful. Then we have welcome and opening prayer by one of our pastors combined with scripture reading. Then we will usually sing in worship 2 more songs which is followed by the Lord’s supper. This includes scripture reading, and words of wisdom if you will from either one of our Elders or Pastors. Then communion is served to everyone who considers themselves followers of Christ. This is the most moving part of the service because the lights are low and it’s amazing to see how deeply into prayer people will go to connect with our Lord. Once communion is finished we collect the offerings and at the same time this is happening one of our Pastor’s will go over upcoming events including ministry opportunities, outreach programs, etc. Then we move to the sermon given by our head pastor which is more scripturally based than anything I’ve ever seen. The education we receive is nothing like I have ever experienced anywhere in any church. After the sermon is completed we may have a focus on something particular that the church is doing. That is followed by the benediction and closing. While this main service is happening we have a very large and strong children’s ministry for several age groups. My daughter attended her age group for months before joining us in the main service. The education she received about Jesus was better than anything I ever received when I was her age.

Outside of our normal weekly service we have Bible study, small groups, and plenty of ministry activities constantly going on to edify the congregation. We also have many community outreach programs, and currently partner with 10 other local non-denominational churches totaling about 40,000 people to provide aid and assistance to many of the oppressed villages in Africa.

Is that enough detail for you??

PEACE

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;3355104:

I’ll do this for you Gabriel.

We enter to our chapel while spiritual and uplifting music is being played. Once the service begins we start with an opening song played by our band and we all stand in unison singing to our great GOD words that are both inspirational and very meaningful. Then we have welcome and opening prayer by one of our pastors combined with scripture reading. Then we will usually sing in worship 2 more songs which is followed by the Lord’s supper. This includes scripture reading, and words of wisdom if you will from either one of our Elders or Pastors. Then communion is served to everyone who considers themselves followers of Christ. This is the most moving part of the service because the lights are low and it’s amazing to see how deeply into prayer people will go to connect with our Lord. Once communion is finished we collect the offerings and at the same time this is happening one of our Pastor’s will go over upcoming events including ministry opportunities, outreach programs, etc. Then we move to the sermon given by our head pastor which is more scripturally based than anything I’ve ever seen. The education we receive is nothing like I have ever experienced anywhere in any church. After the sermon is completed we may have a focus on something particular that the church is doing. That is followed by the benediction and closing. While this main service is happening we have a very large and strong children’s ministry for several age groups. My daughter attended her age group for months before joining us in the main service. The education she received about Jesus was better than anything I ever received when I was her age.

Outside of our normal weekly service we have Bible study, small groups, and plenty of ministry activities constantly going on to edify the congregation. We also have many community outreach programs, and currently partner with 10 other local non-denominational churches totaling about 40,000 people to provide aid and assistance to many of the oppressed villages in Africa.

Is that enough detail for you??

PEACE

**Very good, thank you, now that wasnt hard was it? I will not insult your particular worhsip service, nor judge you for it. This is good bible oriented service.

If I can ask you a question, there is one thing that comes to mind about the first Christian community, who didnt have a bible yet, how do you think they worshipped God?**

 

[reform3703]

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshippers will worship the Father in SPIRIT AND TRUTH: and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

How would a protestant or non catholic explain their worship in SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

To me to worship God in spirit and truth, can only be done through the Mass, Because we have Jesus truly present in body soul and divinity, we have truth, along with the word of God, in his law and prophets followed by the testimonies of the Apostles climaxed by the gospel himself the Word of God made present. During all this liturgical worship in truth, instituted by Jesus Christ himself, we enter into the Holy of Holies, Where all the angels and saints including the Blessed Mother come together as one body in Jesus Christ to worship God in Spirit.

Can you summarize your church worship services, How you worship God in SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

Allow mw to explain from my Lutheran point of view. We worship God in both religious services (some of the closest to Catholic) and in our daily lives. We partake in Holy Communion in which the body and blood of Christ are present. We read and study the scriptures and try to apply them.

At the same time, I will accuse Catholics of religious formalism. When you worship, many would argue that you do so without truly understanding or appriciating exactly what it is that you are doing. I’m sure that there are some to which this statement does not apply, but it is accurate in many cases.

Allow me to take you back to the time of the prophets. They had several jobs, two of which were to disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed. Judah (the southern kingdom, not just the tribe of Judah) had quite a few issues. One of them was that they were a bit cocky. Even after Israel (the northern kingdom) was attacked by the Assyrians, they believed that nothing would happen to them. They believed this because they had the Temple, Jerusalem, the Ark of the Covenant, and a king of the Davidic line. As you may know, they were made short work of by the Babalonians. The prophets tried to set them straight, but they just turned a deaf ear.

To relate this to the Catholic faith today, you are a bit complacent. You attack the protestants with the argument that you have a successor of Peter (an almost axact parallel of David in this case) and you have the true faith. You are the original. I will not dispute that the Catholic faith was the first Christian faith to emerge. I do, however have several problems.

If you would like to know anything else in detail, I would be more than happy to explain it to you. Just send me a private message.

 

[jttierney1]

Don’t dance around the question I have almost 40 years of Roman Catholic background so this doesn’t fool me.

Dude, I’m not trying to fool you.

Yes what is the problem? I think you are coming into the conversation a little late. The implication is that there is sacred tradition not contained in the Bible. That simply is not the case as I have never found it.

There’s a big difference between scripture and sacred tradition. Scripture contains the absolute truth of our beliefs and morals. Tradition is how you do it. Example. It is a doctrinal truth that Christ instituted the Lord’s supper and asked us to do it in Anamnesis (greek for remembrance meaning memorial) of HIM. Sacred tradition may be that you do it every week. It used to be that you accepted it on your knees by mouth only. Then it evolved to standing up. Then to taking it by hand.

Now the Pope declared that the host was sufficient and contained both elements of the body and blood. That’s why many RCCs don’t serve wine to the congregation. I must say this is found nowhere in scripture and violates what Jesus instituted. The cup itself represents the covenant which is in Jesus blood. How can you not allow everyone to receive it:shrug:

PEACE

The NT came from tradition.

Can’t say that I’ve ever heard of or been to an RCC that doesn’t have both body and blood? I don’t think that would be a valid consecration but I’d have to check on that.

As far as not allowing non-catholics to receive the eucharist, why would you want to? If your not part of the bride of Christ why would you want the body of Christ? The two are one.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Allow mw to explain from my Lutheran point of view. We worship God in both religious services (some of the closest to Catholic) and in our daily lives. We partake in Holy Communion in which the body and blood of Christ are present. We read and study the scriptures and try to apply them.

At the same time, I will accuse Catholics of religious formalism. When you worship, many would argue that you do so without truly understanding or appriciating exactly what it is that you are doing. I’m sure that there are some to which this statement does not apply, but it is accurate in many cases.

Allow me to take you back to the time of the prophets. They had several jobs, two of which were to disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed. Judah (the southern kingdom, not just the tribe of Judah) had quite a few issues. One of them was that they were a bit cocky. Even after Israel (the northern kingdom) was attacked by the Assyrians, they believed that nothing would happen to them. They believed this because they had the Temple, Jerusalem, the Ark of the Covenant, and a king of the Davidic line. As you may know, they were made short work of by the Babalonians. The prophets tried to set them straight, but they just turned a deaf ear.

**The difference from my opinion is that there was Jesus, Pharisees, Saduccess, of the Sanhederin. These opposed the teachings of Jesus. The Pharisees believed in the oral and written Tradition of the Law, the Saduccees believed only in the Written Tora of the Law.

From my perspective, Protestants follow the only scripture, as did the Saducees, also only faith similar to the Pharisees. The Catholic church being the body of Jesus Christ on earth, is opposed today by the protestant teachings of Sola Scriptura, Sola fide.

The early Christians went to their deaths, just as Jesus did, for the apostolic teachings. especially the Eucharist.**
To relate this to the Catholic faith today, you are a bit complacent. You attack the protestants with the argument that you have a successor of Peter (an almost axact parallel of David in this case) and you have the true faith. You are the original. I will not dispute that the Catholic faith was the first Christian faith to emerge. I do, however have several problems.

I hope I dont come across to you as attacking for speaking of what the Catholic church teaches and belive. Please dont take my comments as an attack. I am just discussing my beliefs, I dont claim to have the true faith as you imply, I believe the Catholic church Possesses the “fullness of Truth” in the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

If you would like to know anything else in detail, I would be more than happy to explain it to you. Just send me a private message.

Peace and the love of Jesus Christ be with you

 

[reform3703]

You’re missing one thing. It’s Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura. Grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone. With those three things, how can you go wrong. The Catholic church throws in a lot of unnecesary junk. We don’t need it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You’re missing one thing. It’s Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura. Grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone. With those three things, how can you go wrong. The Catholic church throws in a lot of unnecesary junk. We don’t need it.

Ok reform 3703, since when did protestants start this new doctrine of Sola Gratia?, I have never heard of it?, Is this a new doctrine? who invented it? when did it come about? Please dont say the bible, Catholics believe in grace, but when did this Sola Gratia come about?

I hope I am just ignorant to this doctrine, and it isnt another new one added to the Protestant traditions made by man, I include non catholic christians also.

 

[SyCarl]

Ok reform 3703, since when did protestants start this new doctrine of Sola Gratia?, I have never heard of it?, Is this a new doctrine? who invented it? when did it come about? Please dont say the bible, Catholics believe in grace, but when did this Sola Gratia come about?

I hope I am just ignorant to this doctrine, and it isnt another new one added to the Protestant traditions made by man, I include non catholic christians also.

Actually the Reformation was based on 5 “sola” s.

Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Actually the Reformation was based on 5 “sola” s.

Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone

Thansk SyCarl, I didnt know of all these different sola’s. I wil look into them. My question is Catholics believe in all of the above, why add Sola to them? it doesn’t make sense to me to define a new doctrine that is not biblical when you add Sola to them. It appears to me there is much conflict in these, one can come to the conclusion that one holding to these are not sure of their faith, or is making a prideful statement to an existing authority to protest.

Do all these doctrines still believed today by protestants, or they are divided among which is believed to each denomination? simply put, are all these believed by one protestant denomintion?

 

[guanophore]

You’re missing one thing. It’s Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura. Grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone. With those three things, how can you go wrong. The Catholic church throws in a lot of unnecesary junk. We don’t need it.

Do you really not see the illogic of this? You are naming three things, each of them “alone” then say “with these three things”…“alone”.

 

[sheila0405]

Do all these doctrines still believed today by protestants, or they are divided among which is believed to each denomination? simply put, are all these believed by one protestant denomintion?

ABSOLUTELY NOT. The reason why there are so many denominations is because there are differences regarding these doctrines. Before I became a Catholic, I attended churches with diametrically opposing beliefs. The Baptist church believed only adults could be baptized by full immersion, the Methodist believed in infant baptism, the Nazarene church taught that you can lose your salvation, the Pentecostal church taught that you had to speak in tongues after you received the Holy Spirit, while another Baptist church taught that speaking in tongues is a sign of demonic possession. The Holy Spirit, being the Spirit of Truth, cannot contradict Himself, therefore some or all of these Protestant churches were in error. It took me years to find my way into the Church Christ Himself founded–the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[onenow1]

Hi, All
Originally Posted by reform3703
You’re missing one thing. It’s Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura. Grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone. With those three things, how can you go wrong. The Catholic church throws in a lot of unnecesary junk. We don’t need it.

Do you really not see the illogic of this? You are naming three things, each of them “alone” then say “with these three things”…“alone”.

Sola Scripture,= illogic personified wow !
Sorry couldn’t resist.

How about this, One faith through grace and Sola Church in Spirit and truth.
Seems to me this is a lot less complicated !
Jesus sure got upset at the money changers for defileing God’s temple of worship.
Isn’t this what the detractors are doing today through the secular as welll as with other christian denominations making false statements about our Holy Church ?

Peace, OneNow1

PS. No one does scripture alone, if you think you do, I believe you are deluding yourself, it all comes down to the authority of the person you believe interprets the scripture correctly for you, at your place of worship or bible study etc.:twocents: