How does Contemplation fit into the Consecration to Jesus through Mary?

[beckycmarie]

**

**Important…the yardstick of any sort of growth anywhere in the spiritual life is growth in virtue/love of God, which expresses itself in love of neighbour…

Excellent point, BarbaraTherese.

Love for neighbor is a good measure of growth, since our love for God and neighbor tends to grow together. I am reminded of the refrain to an old Quaker song, “More Love:”

If ye love not each other in daily communion, how can ye love God, whom ye have not seen?"

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Excellent point, BarbaraTherese.

Love for neighbor is a good measure of growth, since our love for God and neighbor tends to grow together. I am reminded of the refrain to an old Quaker song, “More Love:”

If ye love not each other in daily communion, how can ye love God, whom ye have not seen?"

… …we love, because first we are loved and that love that we receive from God at once also flows out to all and to all creation. Hence
1 John 4

20 If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?

St. Teresa of Avila became puzzled because some were sharing with her the very same experiences she was having in prayer, and yet she noted they were not growing in virtue correspondingly, and thus concluded that their experiences were not true. She was also concerned that some were actively seeking and desiring to actually have these experiences in prayer and advised that love of neighbour was the surest and safest way to Union.

Blessings…Barb

 

[beckycmarie]

So now the next step or first step I think would be to live a life of self denial, turning away from the world, putting those things away that would become a distraction from hearing God speaking, so that I can listen to our Lord speaking, and living in contemplation inline with “little acts” of self denial.
How do you think this fits?

Godbless

Hi littleone,

Sounds like you’re pretty far ahead of where I started, so what I have to share may be so basic to you that it just isn’t helpful. The first step I took was obedience. I’d been a cafeteria Catholic who’d never made a valid confession in my life because I’d held things back the previous 2 times I went. I finally made up my mind to go to Mass weekly and to follow the rules of the Church, avoiding sin to the best of my ability and heading back to Confession when I didn’t.

The second step I took was a commitment to daily prayer, which led to daily meditation. I found that over time, detachment wasn’t something I had to battle with as things of the world just began to lose their appeal. But after several months of this I started to notice areas where I was holding out on God, and for me, that’s where the self-denial and mortification comes in to try to detach from those things.

As far as hearing God speaking, I think you’ve gotten a grasp of that when you describe seeing God in a blade of grass. The more prayerful you are, the more you see the hand of God in events of everyday life and in nature, and you hear him through the Church and Scripture in a meaningful and profound way. You will also hear Him in the words of other people, when they say things that you need to hear.

Hearing God was a concept I just didn’t get until after I obeyed first and then got serious about prayer. I used to think if I got quiet enough I would literally hear God. I even tried to tackle The Interior Castle three years ago, and it went WAY over my head at the time. I just didn’t get it. What that book needed for dummies like me was a disclaimer on the front page that said, “Got mortal sin? Then put this book down and go to Confession!” At the time, I was standing outside the castle as St. Teresa describes - not even in the first mansion - and I didn’t even see that in myself while I was reading it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There are two forms of meditation in the spiritual life.

One, which the Little One was referring to, is discursive meditation, which is on par with discursive prayer. In this form of meditation, we reflect on the life of Jesus, Mary and Scripture. Here images are often used and it is part of learning the Gospel.

The other , which St Teresa teaches is called “mental prayer” or interior meditation. This form of meditation uses no images or thoughts, but is merely a resting in the presence of God. It is here at the center of our being, that God transforms us, through grace given in love. It is here, that transformation takes place and where our relationship with God grows deeper and moves toward union with Christ.

As St Teresa teaches in her “Interior Castle,” their are different levels before perfect union is made. She describes these levels as mansions, which is so important, because it means that while we are not at the deepest level, which is perfect union, we are still in a place of grace, which each mansion actually is.

Contemplation is the transformation of the heart and the will of the soul, where the soul now becomes like Christ, loving as Christ loves. When a soul is at this level of love, there mere thought of things spiritual, warms their heart.

So, the question on whether the discursive forms of prayer should be abandon is, no. A soul in love with the beloved, Jesus Christ, will savior all that brings Christ to the forefront.

Just as we love to be with our loved ones, we still cherish the memories and photographs we have of them. Likewise, we cherish all that has to do with Christ, our beloved.

Jim

 

[pureDzire]

A Purified Faith…Faith that has been tried in the fires of tribulation has a relevance here, I feel.

One can progress to a certain extent by way of prayerful methods, and Should do All that is within one’s Own power, asking God’s assistance. But, at some point Our Lord must reach down and touch us with a Gift that brings us out of Meditation and into Infused Contemplation, IF it is meant for us to travel that Path, and IF our desires have been purified of most of the dross elements of the natural appetites. (Yes, He Sometimes Does intervene with souls Not so purified, for certain reasons) .

Mental Prayer, combined with Vocal Prayer, Recollection, and Meditation, are all within the soul’s own powers to develop, with God’s assistance. But Infused Contemplation is not in that category.

So, as I understand it, one’s Faith and one’s Hope, as well as one’s Love must undergo purifications beyond what is common to denying our self to the best of our Own abilities. We must undergo the Passive Nights to some degree, depending on the perfection that Our Lord wishes to bring us to. Some more, some less.

Having said that, I see this as the place to speak about the benefits of Suffering the Dark Nights…Would anyone care to explore this furthur???

 

[beckycmarie]

Having said that, I see this as the place to speak about the benefits of Suffering the Dark Nights…Would anyone care to explore this further???

I can share a bit about the dark night of sense from experience. What I know about the latter dark night, the dark night of the soul, comes only from reading about it. I understand that it is far more difficult than the night of sense, and that it comes as a purification just before the transforming union.

The night of sense can begin not long after one experiences conversion and begins to take their spiritual life more seriously. Often immediately after conversion, a person begins to experience a flood of consolations from God; lots of sweetness in prayer, and maybe a general sense of peace and joy that lasts anywhere from hours to months, depending on how long you need your “spiritual training wheels” to stay on the right path.

What can happen during this flood of consolations is that a person can become attached to them, and without even realizing it, they start to seek the consolations instead of seeking God.

During the night of sense, those consolations are removed, and this teaches us to love God with a pure love, and not a self-interested love that seeks rewards. Often it feels like God has pulled back and that we are far away from Him, but the reality is that we are closer to Him than ever if we continue to seek Him despite the dryness.

I think of it like a billionaire dad who tells his kids that he plans to give his entire fortune to charity instead of leaving it for the family. When the reward is out of the picture, it will soon be obvious which of the children really love their dad, and which ones were just pretending to do so for the money.

Another benefit of the night of sense is that we develop humility, which is crucial for growth in the spiritual life. During a time of consolations, it’s easy to get the mistaken impression that one must be really holy to receive such gifts. The night of sense corrects that delusion and helps one to see his wretchedness and complete dependence on God more clearly.

 

[beckycmarie]

… …we love, because first we are loved and that love that we receive from God at once also flows out to all and to all creation. Hence
1 John 4

20 If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?

Well I have just learned something - all this time I’d thought, wow, that is a great line in the song ‘More Love’ not realizing it came straight from John’s first letter. Thank you for pointing this out to me, Barb!

 

[DBT]

. . . and it is in the passive night of sense in which the soul first begins the transition from meditation to the “simple gaze” that eventually leads the soul to infused contemplation. The transition from meditation to contemplation is the purpose, if you will, of this passive part of the night of sense. St. John of the Cross wrote extensively about the signs that mark this transition; the desire for solitude being key as well as the belief the soul is no longer serving God (which causes much of the dryness and pain). As far as the other signs, Joysong summarized them very nicely earlier in this thread:

If anyone does not experience this abiding attentiveness to God, the continual inability to meditate, and a general distaste for the things the world holds dear, then it is not time to abandon meditation.

Dave

 

[glenaitken]

In the St. Louis de Montfort Method of Consecrating one’s self to Jesus through Mary, what happens if at some point one feels called to a more imageless form of prayer such as Contemplative prayer? What then does one do with their devotion to Our Lady and the path one was following accoding to it?

If Our Lord Himself calls us to Contemplative Prayer, should we not abandon all other methods and paths?

Never, ever, abandon all other methods and paths to prayer- not even for contemplation. without these other methods you lose the devotional spirit and without that you will soon lose contemplation.
keep doing the prescribed prayers of the consecration, then when you are done with those spend time in contemplation if the Lord is calling you to it. when you sit in contemplation, this should be your simple prayer:

1. be aware of the presence of Christ as best you can
2. incline your will toward him- meaning open your heart to loving Him and sit in that love (notice the mind is not the primary agent of the prayer here as it it in meditation, the will is simply loving God- i cannot show you how to do this, it is either in you or it is not because loving God for His own sake is the gift of contemplation)
3. silence the mind- let go of cares and worries and every thing else- this is the moment of the day where you are offering your whole self to your beloved Christ as a bride to the bridegroom- you should be wholly present to Him here and offer him your full attention unreservedly and without regard to whether he will take you into the contemplative state or leave you to struggle- it is according to his will
4. remember: this prayer is to BE- this will make sense later.

• in regards to mary- contemplation increases love for her and the holy ones (even on earth). do what is right by them. honor mary through meditating on the rosary and praying with her to christ through it. you must have all three forms of prayer (vocal, meditation, and contemplation) if the lord is calling you to contemplation. do not be suprised if in your contemplative prayer you are aware of the presence of mary at times, as this is common.
  Continue in prayer, recieve the sacraments, and find a holy priest to talk to. don’t believe every experiance you have in prayer but test them with your director to see if it is God, your imagination, or the devil. here is a quick rule of thumb: if it is from God- you will feel the inner witness of teh holy spirit, everything will line up with scripture and tradition and not contradict either, it will not draw you away from your daily responsibilities and work, it will bear fruits of the spirit, peace follows, and love for neighbor increases.
  hope this helps

 

[glenaitken]

A Purified Faith…Faith that has been tried in the fires of tribulation has a relevance here, I feel.

One can progress to a certain extent by way of prayerful methods, and Should do All that is within one’s Own power, asking God’s assistance. But, at some point Our Lord must reach down and touch us with a Gift that brings us out of Meditation and into Infused Contemplation, IF it is meant for us to travel that Path, and IF our desires have been purified of most of the dross elements of the natural appetites. (Yes, He Sometimes Does intervene with souls Not so purified, for certain reasons) .

Mental Prayer, combined with Vocal Prayer, Recollection, and Meditation, are all within the soul’s own powers to develop, with God’s assistance. But Infused Contemplation is not in that category.

So, as I understand it, one’s Faith and one’s Hope, as well as one’s Love must undergo purifications beyond what is common to denying our self to the best of our Own abilities. We must undergo the Passive Nights to some degree, depending on the perfection that Our Lord wishes to bring us to. Some more, some less.

Having said that, I see this as the place to speak about the benefits of Suffering the Dark Nights…Would anyone care to explore this furthur???

not too much to say here that hasn’t been said in other threads about it. your thinking is right in this as far as i can tell. as far as infused contemplation goes, all you can do is offer God the opportinity to grant this gift. this is done in 2 ways: 1st- one should not be inclined to mortal sin, meaning that a person who God is going to grant this grace to rarely, if ever, commits a mortal sin (if you are confused about mortal sin, its best to post in the moral theology forums), 2nd- the person who recieves this gift actively waits in silent love for it, as in the method of prayer i described above.

 

[InLight247]

Never, ever, abandon all other methods and paths to prayer- not even for contemplation. without these other methods you lose the devotional spirit and without that you will soon lose contemplation.

What you said is true. Rosaries, Chaplets and other devotions help us to be in the presence of God. Such prayers and contemplation are mutually inclusive, not exclusive.

as far as infused contemplation goes, all you can do is offer God the opportinity to grant this gift. this is done in 2 ways: 1st- one should not be inclined to mortal sin, meaning that a person who God is going to grant this grace to rarely, if ever, commits a mortal sin…

I’d like to add that whoever longs for infused contemplation should strive for not even committing any venial sin. And it is helpful to confess any venial sin or imperfection without being scruple.
We may not become saints over night, but we can always strive for holiness.

 

[glenaitken]

I’d like to add that whoever longs for infused contemplation should strive for not even committing any venial sin. And it is helpful to confess any venial sin or imperfection without being scruple.
We may not become saints over night, but we can always strive for holiness.

this is exactly right

 

[DBT]

1. remember: this prayer is to BE- this will make sense later.

That sums it up very nicely. Meditation is “doing” . . . contemplation is “be-ing.” And the distinction between the two will probably not make sense until the soul first begins to taste contemplation.

Another important point that I think Glen and Joysong make is that eventhough the individual might be living a contemplative life . . . the soul is not always “in” contemplation. Other ways of prayer will continue to be important to inflame the will so that it is prepared to enjoy the rest of the “simple gaze” (and more, God willing) when the soul feels drawn to pray that way.

And this, I believe, is why a true contemplative is drawn to pray without ceasing . . . in all ways, shapes and forms. Prayer of the Heart – habitual interior conversation with God – is what fills us with the presence of Christ. And without it, Prayer of Simplicity in the manner described by Glen will probably just be a futile effort . . . because the soul simply isn’t ready for it.

And that’s why, IMO, the saints place so much emphasis on the ingredients for this readiness – self-denial, avoidance of sin, growth in virtue, healthy solitude and so on. While some see contemplation as an “experience” (which sometimes piques the curiosity of the uninitiated), it is probably best understood as a “process” that, as others here have said, is totally transformative. Ultimately the fire of contemplation leads to the death of self . . . a frightening thought indeed for the merely curious Just my opinion, but I believe God gives freely and abundantly His gift of contemplation when He sees in us our desire to embark on this journey of death of self. And recognizing our desire, He gives us the grace to do so.

Dave.

 

[glenaitken]

i had this image in my head last night actually of what this is like and why the saints describe it as a low and hot fire:
if you throw insence on a bright high flame it doesn’t burn right- it goops together and there is really no smoke. when the fire has become white coals and the insence is thrown on, it sweet aroma reaches our Lord. (Holy Smoke! ) in rthe same way, when we have been purified through the fire of divine love and self denial and trials and all of that- when we have died to self- then God can place the insences of new graces in our hearts so that they may not be burned in the pruifying flames, but rather rise up to his heavenly altar with a sweet aroma that is pleasing.
Does this anaology make sense to anyone else?

 

[InLight247]

…
And this, I believe, is why a true contemplative is drawn to pray without ceasing . . . in all ways, shapes and forms. Prayer of the Heart – habitual interior conversation with God – is what fills us with the presence of Christ. And without it, Prayer of Simplicity in the manner described by Glen will probably just be a futile effort . . . because the soul simply isn’t ready for it.

Dave.

That is so true!

It is a constant state of “being with” - in Him, we live, move and have our beings…the attentiveness to God becomes a natural part of the contemplative that the wordless gaze continues even in busy daily obligations.

 

[DBT]

Does this anaology make sense to anyone else?

Does to me What you’re saying reminds me of St. John’s description of the log of wood. If anyone has access to St. John online maybe they can copy it in? I’d type it out but my fingers would probably fall off in the process . . .

Dave.

 

[glenaitken]

Does to me What you’re saying reminds me of St. John’s description of the log of wood. If anyone has access to St. John online maybe they can copy it in? I’d type it out but my fingers would probably fall off in the process . . .

Dave.

yeah, st john’s analogy was what i was thinking about- also, i was trying to figure out why the 80 year old nun at my parish can gat one of those incense charcoals lit but i can’t! it drives me nuts!

 

[littleone]

I find that all this is so confusing to me. Not the actions of relationship with God, but the terminology used, ( not fault finding here).

This however is what i know what i believe.
I know that I must give my whole being to God and the only way I can do this is to listen to His desire for me in speaking to me from the Word of God from the bible, priests, others who I know in my spirit are speaking words from God that can be proved by the word. I will be able to discern by the spirit of God. I must live by the beatitudes /10 Commandments,
Galatians 5:22, and
James 3:5,
1 Corinthians 12 and 13, and by living as close to how Jesus tells me to. For me God gave me the simplicity of St Therese in the “little way” .
Some things I have been shown are

1. To throw away my learned books and let God show me from the heart.Hence I throw them and the response to me from them away, for Jesus says to follow Him which is to be in the world NOT of the world.

I have been told this and it works for me.
2. The person who sees and knows only the creation will not see or know the creator, but the one who sees and knows the creator already know the creation for they are one and the same.

3: Self denial for me is in drawing away from the flesh and the world, for they are the way of drawing close to God. Self denial will keep me thinking about God for each time the flesh draws me to superficial joy that lasts momentously, the spirit reminds me that this is not the way of Godliness.
And so i tell myself that I do not need these things that cannot give my heart and spirit the everlasting joy that only God can give forever.
4. At all times i must be ready to forgive even when i think that I am not to blame, for the strength in coming back together comes from the spiritual person asking forgiveness and forgiving at all times.
5. i must be ready to check my own actions before praying for others so that I take the log out of my own eye, before looking at the chip in some brothers eye. For Jesus tells us that ALL people are our brothers/sisters.
6. I must have no fear, for why should I fear they that can kill the flesh, rather fear He who can kill the flesh and spirit.
7. My mind must be as much time as possible thinking of how the Lord would like what I am doing.
At all times do good unto others, as I would like them do unto me, even though they may not, still love them for the love of God to pore out on them.

I don’t ask if this is anything like contemplation or other but it is some of what I know, this seems simple to me.

Thank you for your help.
Godbless

 

[DBT]

I find that all this is so confusing to me.

Littleone, your words show you get it much better than you might think And don’t worry if the words of others just don’t seem to click in your mind. So much about contemplation is simply beyond explanation and sometimes, I think, efforts to explain it just muddles things up.

You’ve always struck me as a very contemplative soul and, at the end of the day, all of this is much easier and natural than our words here might make it seem.

Let’s think about it for a moment . . . how can we describe this “simple gaze” in another way? Perhaps we can all take experiences from our own life and think of them as the “contemplative moments” Joysong mentioned way earlier in this thread:

Sitting in wonder and awe just basking in the glow of a beautiful sunset, not thinking about anything in particular . . . just “be-ing.” Or sitting in a field and watching the tree branches gently sway in the wind . . . our thoughts just naturally stilled. Or listening to the birds chirp away in silent, interior joy . . . being delightfully “in-tune” to all that is around us. Or perhaps the best example of all: Sitting before Him in the tabernacle “looking at Him while He looks at you.”

All of this isn’t infused contemplation per se but it is something “close” . . . and something we can all hopefully relate to. What God decides to do beyond these types of moments is up to Him . . .

Dave

 

[beckycmarie]

Dave,

I’ve been thinking lately that perhaps all one really needs to do is strive for holiness by responding to grace, working to avoid sin (even venial), frequenting the Sacraments and commitment to daily prayer, and if God wills us to have it, He will give us infused contemplation.

I’d gotten a bit caught up in reading about the mansions and becoming concerned about my progress, and someone whalloped me upside the head and pointed out that if I had humility, I would quit worrying about degrees of contemplation and I would just pray, not expecting or even being concerned about a reward or a “promotion” to the next level.

Do you think maybe people get carried away with reading Sts. Tersea and John of the Cross, worrying too much about what to expect and whether or not you’re “doing things right,” when perhaps when a person is ready to receive, God will just provide and guide them in prayer?