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Anastasia13
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How would you say that Eastern Catholics relate to the different Orthodox churches? How do you view us?
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I view the Oriental Orthodox Church as forced out of Communion with Rome do to Pope St Leo’s tome that used language that followers of Pope St Cyril of Alexandria understandably rejected. I hope for reunion.
Pope St Leo’s the tome is part of what divided the Catholic Church from the Oriental Churches. Some of his tome can be viewed as supporting nestorianism.
For each “form” does the acts which belong to it, in communion with the other; the Word, that is, performing what belongs to the Word, and the flesh carrying out what belongs to the flesh; the one of these shines out in miracles, the other succumbs to injuries. And as the Word does not withdraw from equality with the Father in glory, so the flesh does not abandon the nature of our kind. - The Council of Chalcedon, The Tome of Pope St Leo of Rome
To paraphrase, “The Word preforms His duties and the flesh preforms its duties in communion with each other.” And then we see:
"[Christ said,] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have:” that the properties of the Divine and the human nature might be acknowledged to remain in him without causing a division, and that we might in such sort know that the Word is not what the flesh is, as to confess that the one Son of God is both Word and flesh. - The Council of Chalcedon, The Tome of Pope St Leo of Rome
The Coptic Alexandrians would have probably been more comfortable with saying that there is one Son of God (the Word of God the Father) who is both God and Man. Pope St Cyril of Alexandria seems to contradict the Tome of Pope St Leo of Rome:
If anyone shall divide between two persons or subsistences those expressions which are contained in the Evangelical and Apostolical writings, or which have been said concerning Christ by the Saints, or by himself, and shall apply some to him as to a man separate from the Word of God, and shall apply others to the only Word of God the Father, on the ground that they are fit to be applied to God: let him be anathema. - Pope St Cyril of Alexandria, Twelve Anathemas, Anathema IV
Pope St Leo used “Son of God” to mean “Jesus” and “the Word” to mean “divinity” and “flesh” to mean “humanity”. Pope St Cyril of Alexandria used “the Word of God the Father” to mean “Jesus”. Therefore, when the Coptic Alexandrians hear that Pope St Leo has divided the Word from the flesh, it makes sense that they’d veiw him as a nestorian heretic.
“Wherefore, we say that the two natures were united, from which there is the one and only Son and Lord, Jesus Christ, as we accept in our thoughts; but after the union, since the distinction into two is done away with, we believe that there is one physis [nature] of the Son, as one, however, one who became man and was made flesh. But if being God the Word he is said to be incarnate and to be made man, let the suspicion of a change be cast somewhere far away, for he has remained what he was, and let the entirely unconfused union be confessed on our part.” - St Cyril of Alexandria, Letter 40:14
“For how will anyone divide walking upon the water? For to run upon the sea is foreign to the human nature, but it is not proper to the divine nature to use bodily feet. Therefore that action is of the incarnate Word, to whom belongs at the same time divine character and human, indivisibly.” - St Severus of Antioch
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theistgal
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As individuals who have made different choices.
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Peter_J
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Anything specific you’re wondering about?
For the moment I’ll say, broadly speaking, say that I’ve spent the last several years trying to be a friend-to-the-Orthodox (while still being Catholic). But as time goes by I’ve been feeling more and more like I’m banging my head against a wall. Maybe it’s time I rethink my approach, I’m not sure.
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Anastasia13
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How much do you consider yourselves similar?
Do you really want us all to convert/would you really try to convert us all? And how important is that to you?
Why do you feel like you are banging your head?
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sharpag
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While I do not know your approach, Catholics and Orthodox tend to speak past one another. At the end of the day, Catholics view the Orthodox as Churches that need to submit to Rome and the Orthodox view Catholics as Christians who need to recognize their many heresies. One can dress these views up with a series of platitudes but any reasonable person will eventually see through them
The Orthodox have had nearly a millennium to consider theological issues such as the filioque and they have rejected them as heretical innovations. To accept Catholicism for the Orthodox would be to reject their very Orthodoxy. Again, I do not know your approach but if being friendly implies trying to mitigate the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy then I can see how the Orthodox would harshly reject it as they are defending their faith which they do not believe is fully compatible with Catholicism. With respect to the OP, this is part of the reason why the Orthodox are not at all happy with the Eastern Catholic Churches and view their creation or re-communion (depending on one’s point of view) as a sort of Roman Imperialism.
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Peter_J
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Your second question,
is pretty easy to answer, because the Catholic Church has a policy not to encourage Orthodox to convert. (I’ll probably come back to this thread in the morning and try to tackle the other questions.)
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Anastasia13
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I’ve never heard this before. Please tell me more.
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Paul_theApostle
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Paul_theApostle
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In the statement the Orthodox arent supposed to convert Catholics either i think
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Paul_theApostle
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From Balamand Statement-
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html
“It is not a question of seeking the conversion of persons from one Church to the other. This latter type of missionary activity, which has been called “uniatism”, cannot be accepted either as a method to follow or as a model for the unity which is being sought by our Churches”
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html
“It is not a question of seeking the conversion of persons from one Church to the other. This latter type of missionary activity, which has been called “uniatism”, cannot be accepted either as a method to follow or as a model for the unity which is being sought by our Churches”
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Anastasia13
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Uniatism is when a Catholic tries to evangelize an Orthodox to make then change churches?
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Anastasia13
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Part 21 says, “For this the authorities of the Catholic Church will assist the Oriental Catholic Churches and their communities so that they themselves may prepare full communion between Catholic and Orthodox Churches.” Do you know what this means?
Part 30 says, “First of all, everyone should be informed of the apostolic succession of the other Church and the authenticity of its sacramental life.” Is that part of what it means for the Catholic church to recognize the Orthodox churches as having valid sacraments, i.e. are these already indicated by this recognition of valid sacraments or is this different?
How applicable is this work to the Oriental Orthodox churches, since this was a Catholic/EO agreement and referred to sister churches?
Part 30 says, “First of all, everyone should be informed of the apostolic succession of the other Church and the authenticity of its sacramental life.” Is that part of what it means for the Catholic church to recognize the Orthodox churches as having valid sacraments, i.e. are these already indicated by this recognition of valid sacraments or is this different?
How applicable is this work to the Oriental Orthodox churches, since this was a Catholic/EO agreement and referred to sister churches?
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Fra_Angelo
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The Eastern Catholic Churches are very close to the Eastern Orthodox Churches especially in the liturgy, but in communion with the Bishop of Rome. As a member of an EC and live amidst of EOC I know it and experience it.
As far as I understand that the Catholic Church recognise the sacraments of the Orthodox Churches as valid since they have the apostolic succession. I know the example of Syrian Orthodox Church in Kerala, India whose sacraments are valid and Catholics do receive atleast the sacrament of reconciliation from them in times of emergency.
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Paul_theApostle
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I hope someone else gives u good answers because i dont know much
but Catholics used to send missions to the east after the schism ,the eastern churches which united with Rome have been labeled (but no longer)Uniates
This form of union of Eastern churches breaking away from their mother church to unite with Rome is what the statement is talking about ,and saying its no longer acceptable,because the EO as a whole and the RC church hope and want to work towards uniting again
I believe that paragraph also applies to the Orthodox converting Catholics too,it says “persons from one church to another” not just from Orthodoxy to RC
and this whole statement is a joint statement of both EO and RC ,not just RC
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Paul_theApostle
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Part 30 says, “First of all, everyone should be informed of the apostolic succession of the other Church and the authenticity of its sacramental life.” Is that part of what it means for the Catholic church to recognize the Orthodox churches as having valid sacraments, i.e. are these already indicated by this recognition of valid sacraments or is this different?
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Once again i personally believe the Orthodox also are sending a statement that they are also speaking of RC when it says ‘the other church’ ,as this is a joint statement
So the Orthodox bishops also are saying that "everyone should be informed of the apostolic sucession of the other church and authenticity of its sacramental life’
Has the Orthodox world listened to and followed these statements? i dont think they all have as RC still isnt respected in alot of EO churches and others say that many EO churches or bishops dont even agree with the Balamand statement or desire to follow it
I dont know your other questions
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Peter_J
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Let me preface my remarks with this disclaimer: they probably won’t do a terribly good job answering this question for two reasons. First, I don’t want to write pages and pages (and I don’t think many people would want to read such a post if I did
); and secondly, even if I did write pages and pages, it’s just difficult to translate my experience over the last several years into words.Having said that, I do acknowledge that, in our collectively history, fault doesn’t lie solely on the Orthodox side. Among other things, there are many Catholic who (as sharpag said) try “to mitigate the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy then I can see how the Orthodox would harshly reject it as they are defending their faith which they do not believe is fully compatible with Catholicism. With respect to the OP, this is part of the reason why the Orthodox are not at all happy with the Eastern Catholic Churches and view their creation or re-communion (depending on one’s point of view) as a sort of Roman Imperialism.”
It annoys me, too, when some Catholics speak that way – especially when it takes the form of pontificating, or railing against the Orthodox “stubbornness” in failing to see that we are (supposedly) all-the-same.
However, I have also come to the conclusion that the Orthodox are (more or less) equally bad, but in ways that are more difficult to classify. (I realize that may sound like a bit of a cop-out.) For example, I’ve found that very many Orthodox will use Catholics’ “We’re all the same” attitude as an excuse to avoid seeing the very real similarities that do exist between us – dismissing them under the label “ecumenism”. (BTW, I’ve found that, in the eyes of many Orthodox, there is no such thing as good ecumenism.)
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Peter_J
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In addition to the already-mentioned statement against uniatism, there is also #22, “Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Oriental, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other; that is to say, it no longer aims at proselytizing among the Orthodox.”
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Anastasia13
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Do these relate to me as an Oriental Orthodox rather than Eastern Orthodox?
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Aramis
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Yep. But not because your church has signed on… it’s because the experience with the EO has shaped how the Catholic Communion deals with the OO.
On the other hand, answering your questions is not a violation of the agreements.
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