how does gay marriage harm society?

[sedonaman]

Then there is even LESS of a problem I’d think with same sex marriage. …

See my post #39 above.

 

[Nirvana21]

Then there is even LESS of a problem I’d think with same sex marriage.

Seems like hetero’s have managed to weaken the foundation of western civilization all by themselves.

Most people are unable to blame themselves.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

It would appear that the referenced articles (three of four I could access) make the point well:
Gay marriage is un-natural, a “construct” to make homosexual unions more “respectable”.

It seems to me, in observing the few close homosexual friends I have (had; three dead) in my life, that homosexuals need constant reassurance that they are “right”, that they are “okay”. Those who are Catholic and lead a celibate life are most troubled that other Catholics will recognize their proclivity and denigrate them in some way. That being said, we, as a Church, have not been real successful in promoting heterosexual chastity. Because we do not speak out firmly about male-female relationships, we seem tongue-tied when it comes to speaking about same-sex attraction. We fail, often, in my mind, to denounce the sin, but welcome the sinner to confession and repentance and community, in that exact order.

If I may, let me separate homosexuals into two groups: One group, like most of us, try to live a life of quiet competence, sometimes frustrated by being labeled homosexual, but generally respectful of what used to be called cultural norms and those who espouse them. The second group contain the outspoken purveyors of a “new” normalcy, fueled sometimes by politics, sometimes by hatred of opponents, sometimes by a perceived need for everyone to approve their lifestyle. The former go about their private, work and spiritual lives much as the rest of the world. The latter become bullies, often assisted by sympathizers in the media who may or may not be guided by ulterior motives. These bullies have an “agenda”, and it must be accomplished by any and all means. It is not a civil rights situation, like women’s suffrage, or black prejudice. Present laws, according to the bullies, must not only protect homosexuals, they must be reformed to affirm a homosexual lifestyle, almost to flaunt it. They have come far; look at what is taught in our schools, shown on TV, marched in St. Patrick Day parades.

I don’t like bullies….of any kind. My political representatives understand my point of view. Whether they bow to the bullies, like the fiasco from the King and Spalding law firm in the DOMA case, is unknown at present. Part of the solution to dealing with the bullies will depend on how reasonable people present their reasonable demands for protection of all citizens’ rights….not just those of a vocal and disruptive few.

My thoughts mirror the position of the Church: hate the sin, love the sinner.

:clapping:

 

[zach_dunn]

Well, perhaps one way might be to allow gay couples to enter into committed relationships and receive the same benefits as their hetero counterparts, including rights of inheritance, division of property, etc, which is what marriage was created for in the first place.

I’m pretty sure marriage was created by God for procreation . . . it’s right there in Genesis.

I also always find it confusing that Christians condemn both gay marriage and gay people who act on their orientation. If I understand it correctly, Catholics expect gay men and women to remain celibate their entire life. How realistic is that?

It’s not a matter of being realistic . . . is it realistic for people to choose subjecting their wills to Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Master . . . over “mammon”? No, it’s not; but it is right to do so. Just as homosexuals being celibate is not a matter of being ‘realistic’ but one of being morally correct and in line with God’s will for man.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

No. As far as I know, neither he nor I are part of any such organization.

I am a practicing Catholic. My private theological opinions are my own concern.

In response to a previous post, I object to CCC 2357 because CCC 2357 does not constitute infallible Church dogma. It cites biblical and CDF documents:

141 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10.
142 CDF, Persona humana 8.

The biblical sources can be readily interpreted in other ways.
The CDF is authoritative but not infallible.

Feel free to continue this discussion, but I only chose to answer the question posed to me. I don’t think its germane to the discussion at hand. - “how does gay marriage harm society?”

The discussion ensued because of your Post #25.

At least, you have now clarified that what you have advanced are your own private theological opinions, not different from the path followed by practicing and/or believing Protestants of certain denominations. Of course, there are Protestants who have not changed in their belief that homosexuality is sinful and displeasing to God according to the Scriptures.

Your certainly are free to hold your opinions. Nobody is taking that away, but the opinions you have expressed are not upheld by the Church and its teaching authority, the Magisterium.

Teachings as they refer to faith and morals are infallible. It is the Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error… To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals." (Catechism, 890)

It would help if you and your spiritual director review The Hierarchical Constitution of the Church and Infallibility: Keeping the Faith.

That said, we can yield to the OP which is about how gay ‘marriage’ harms society. Plenty harms have been brought up. I still have to come across any benefit that gay ‘marriage’ can give to society.
,

 

[SteveVH]

Then there is even LESS of a problem I’d think with same sex marriage.

Seems like hetero’s have managed to weaken the foundation of western civilization all by themselves.

What has weakened the foundation of western civilization is the acceptance and tolerance of inherent evil in the world under the guise of upholding people’s rights and freedoms; from artificial birth control, to abortion, to changing the fundemental building block of society, marriage and the family.

 

[sedonaman]

…That said, we can yield to the OP which is about how gay ‘marriage’ harms society. Plenty harms have been brought up. I still have to come across any benefit that gay ‘marriage’ can give to society.

Actually, the OP question should be “how does gay marriage benefit society?” since the burden of proof is on the advocate of change, not the one for the status quo. Looks like some of us [moi included] might have fallen into that trap … again.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Actually, the OP question should be “how does gay marriage benefit society?” since the burden of proof is on the advocate of change, not the one for the status quo. Looks like some of us [moi included] might have fallen into that trap … again.

Since you are the third to bring this up in this thread, I thought of opening a thread with that question, under Social Justice. It should be interesting. Let’s see if we get bites.
,

 

[Hail_Linus]

And my spiritual director, along with myself and most reputable biblical scholars, don’t find a single word in the Holy Bible that condemns homosexuality as unethical.

The biblical scholars you are referring to do not sound very reputable.

It is simply wrong to state the Holy Bible does not condemn homosexuality. In fact it also condemns sex outside of marriage.

1. 
   *]Lev 20:13 is very clear when it states “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.” With this it is clear the Jews already had a rule against homosexual activity prior to Jesus.
   
   *]While Jesus does not give an explicit teaching on the subject, there are obvious inferres from the Gospel. Consider the fact the Gospels depict Jesus evangelizing the Jews. The Jews were well aware of Lev 2:13 (see above). *Based on existing Jewish laws and the lack of any specific teaching by Jesus on the subject it is logical to conclude there was no need for Jesus to clarify the laws against homosexual behavior. *Furthermore, Jesus is clear that a man should marry a woman. Matt 19:4-5 “He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, [5] and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?” The only exception to heterosexual marriage in the Gospels is that Jesus gives is the celibacy option as noted above (Matt 19: 10-12). If anything, Jesus has made the sexual teachings more strict. Before Jesus you had to actually commit a sin to be guilty of committing the sin. But if you look at Matt 5:28 where he states “But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” He is clearly raising the standard. Since Jesus raised the standard for adultery it seems illogical to believe he relaxed the rules of homosexual activity.
   
   *]Contrast this to when Paul was teaching the pagans in Corinth who regularly practiced fornication and homosexuality since they did not have the Jewish teachings in their tradition. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
   

   Yes, homosexual activity was socially unacceptable. So were women’s rights.

   Pagan culture tolerated homosexuality. Even the Roman Empire itself tolerated homosexuality and even they did not permit or encourage same-sex marriage.
   
   Woman had more rights than you think and men had fewer rights than you seem to think. A homosexual Roman citizen had a lot of rights.

 

[Hail_Linus]

The same-sex marriage issue shows why progressives can never truly progress. They have no clear definition of what is right and have no clear direction in which to progress.

For the past several decades Progressives have been successfully convincing hetero-sexuals to “avoid the shackles of marriage”… “the State has no business being involved in marriage”…“It’s just a piece of paper!”

After all these years of attacking marriage, the progressives now see the “shackles” as “benefits.”

In other words, Progressives have no idea where they are progressing to.

 

[rockerchar]

The biblical scholars you are referring to do not sound very reputable.

It is simply wrong to state the Holy Bible does not condemn homosexuality. In fact it also condemns sex outside of marriage.

1. 
   *]Lev 20:13 is very clear when it states “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.” With this it is clear the Jews already had a rule against homosexual activity prior to Jesus.
   
   *]While Jesus does not give an explicit teaching on the subject, there are obvious inferres from the Gospel. Consider the fact the Gospels depict Jesus evangelizing the Jews. The Jews were well aware of Lev 2:13 (see above). *Based on existing Jewish laws and the lack of any specific teaching by Jesus on the subject it is logical to conclude there was no need for Jesus to clarify the laws against homosexual behavior. *Furthermore, Jesus is clear that a man should marry a woman. Matt 19:4-5 “He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, [5] and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?” The only exception to heterosexual marriage in the Gospels is that Jesus gives is the celibacy option as noted above (Matt 19: 10-12). If anything, Jesus has made the sexual teachings more strict. Before Jesus you had to actually commit a sin to be guilty of committing the sin. But if you look at Matt 5:28 where he states “But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” He is clearly raising the standard. Since Jesus raised the standard for adultery it seems illogical to believe he relaxed the rules of homosexual activity.
   
   *]Contrast this to when Paul was teaching the pagans in Corinth who regularly practiced fornication and homosexuality since they did not have the Jewish teachings in their tradition. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
   
   Pagan culture tolerated homosexuality. Even the Roman Empire itself tolerated homosexuality and even they did not permit or encourage same-sex marriage.
   
   Woman had more rights than you think and men had fewer rights than you seem to think. A homosexual Roman citizen had a lot of rights.

1. 
   Are you a biblical scholar?
   
   I would direct you to John MacNeill’s “The Church and the Homosexual”
   In addition, check the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Fr. Raymond Brown.
   Also, the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Yale University Press.
   
   Or, feel free to use wikipedia
   It’s actually a very informative article.
   
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality

 

[sedonaman]

rockerchar & Hail_Linus:

Your discussion is confusing homosexuality, which is not condemned in the Bible with homosexual acts, which are.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Are you a biblical scholar?

I would direct you to John MacNeill’s “The Church and the Homosexual”
In addition, check the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Fr. Raymond Brown.
Also, the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Yale University Press.

Or, feel free to use wikipedia
It’s actually a very informative article.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality

Apparently I am a Biblical Scholar. I would not put myself at the level of Pope Benedict VI, Dr. Scott Hahn. Dr. Timothy Gray. However, if the sources you cite are teaching what you claim then I would have to say “yes” in comparison to them. For it is true that I have and continue to study the Bible and History in a scholarly manner.

I did read some of John McNeill’s book. His discussion about Sodom and Gomorrah was quite amusing. I had the pleasure of speaking to the great Rabbi Yehuda Levin and asked him his opinion about the story Sodom and Gomorrah and if the traditional Jewish teaching was like the Catholic interpretation. He said traditional Jewish interpretation was indeed like the Catholic interpretation.

The wikipedia article is also absurd in that it states the verses only prohibit one homosexual act but not another. Can you really look a Jew in the face and tell them the secondary act is permissible? Anyway, that part of the article does not even have a cite.

That said, I do not hate homosexuals. I admire many and have loved many. They are not any less deserving of God’s love than anyone else. However, I will not condone anyone’s sinful behavior (hetero-sexual or homo-sexual). Furthermore, do not expect the Church to change its teaching on this issue. There is no one in the Church with the authority to change it

 

[Hail_Linus]

rockerchar & Hail_Linus:

Your discussion is confusing homosexuality, which is not condemned in the Bible with homosexual acts, which are.

I agree with you 100%. The bible does not condemn homosexuals. I am very hopeful I will meet Freddie Mercury and Liberace in Heaven. If I make it there.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Are you a biblical scholar?

I would direct you to John MacNeill’s “The Church and the Homosexual”

BTW, you did not mention John MacNeill’s teaching was condemned by the Church and he was expelled from the Society of Jesus. So you are following teachings that have been explicitly condemned by the Catholic Church.

 

[rockerchar]

BTW, you did not mention John MacNeill’s teaching was condemned by the Church and he was expelled from the Society of Jesus. So you are following teachings that have been explicitly condemned by the Catholic Church.

You’re quite correct.

I didn’t say to look to his “teachings.” MacNeill himself acknowledges his standing in the eyes of the hierarchy. I encourage you to perhaps read the entire book, Hail_Linus!

I argued that he presents arguments based on sound and objective biblical criticism.
Scott Hahn is not a biblical scholar, and he himself makes no such claim. Scott Hahn is in the field of Biblical Theology. He holds a PhD from Marquette, the Jesuit university.

Neither is MacNeill for that matter. MacNeill is in the field of Philosophical Ethics. He holds a D.Phil from the University of Louvain.

By biblical scholar, I’m talking about someone that is well versed in the original languages and spends her/his time conducting biblical exegesis. Otherwise known as the field of biblical criticism. MacNeill presents arguments of biblical scholars.

I’m glad that more than one person seems to express agreement with MacNeill’s primary thesis: non-heterosexuals posses equal human Dignity.

 

[rockerchar]

Allow me to share this with you. This is to demonstrate that there IS agreement with Christian and Jewish scholars, in the field of queer theology:

Perspectives on the Bible and LGBT People

Rev. Chris Glaser, a gay Christian activist of the past thirty years, wrote HRC’s For the Bible Tells Me So guide and edited the Gender Identity and Our Faith Communities curriculum. As part of these guides, he created two stand alone articles discussing homosexuality and gender identity in the Bible:
The Bible and Homosexuality: A Christian View, by Rev. Chris Glaser

Gender Identity and the Bible: Jewish & Christian Perpectives, by Rev. Chris Glaser

Also, Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, Dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies and Vice President of American Jewish University, offers an excellent podcast entitled, “The Bible: Inclusion and Love,” discussing LGBT equality from a Jewish perspective. The podcast is available here.

For more discussion of the Bible from an LGBT perspective, please see HRC’s weekly resource Out In Scripture. For a look at the Bible from a transgender specific perspective, please see HRC’s weekly resource Out In Season.
hrc.org/issues/4893.htm

 

[seeker57]

Question is: if gay marriage does pass, will these gay men still be angry, hurt and confused?

You have misread my sentence. The women they marry are usually angry, hurt and confused once they find out their hubby likes to hop in the sack with other guys.

As for someone noting homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, I would point out only in the old testament.

So, if people are going to hold to that, many people are unclean because of their diets or the clothes they wear.

I consider the Bible a collection of stories with morals aimed at guiding the masses. It cannot be taken literally.

Peace.

 

[zach_dunn]

Are you a biblical scholar?

I would direct you to John MacNeill’s “The Church and the Homosexual”
In addition, check the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Fr. Raymond Brown.
Also, the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Yale University Press.

Or, feel free to use wikipedia
It’s actually a very informative article.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality

Maybe I missed it, but would you care to explain how you consider yourself ‘Catholic’ in light of Church teaching being opposed to homosexual acts and marriage?

 

[rockerchar]

Maybe I missed it, but would you care to explain how you consider yourself ‘Catholic’ in light of Church teaching being opposed to homosexual acts and marriage?

See post number 38.

Also I’d appreciate it if you don’t call me ‘Catholic’