how does gay marriage harm society?

[InSearchofGrace]

See post number 38.

Also I’d appreciate it if you don’t call me ‘Catholic’

Zach has a point. You may feel ‘Catholic’ (with quotes) is not apt to use in your case, but you have already given plenty reasons in this thread.

Sorry if you feel offended. The Church teaches compassion for our homosexual brothers and sisters, but sin is not to be excused for the sake of compassion. Charity without truth would be blind; truth without charity would be like ‘a clanging cymbal’ (1 Corinthians 1:13)

In your recent posts, you referred Catholics in this forum (most of whom are informed) to read the book The Church and the Homosexual, written by John McNeill, a co-founder of Dignity USA in New York, and a priest expelled by the Society of Jesus in 1987, among other things. As mentioned upthread, Dignity is a dissident organization which calls itself Catholic but it is not.

Further, you seem to have no qualms about recommending the HRC website so Catholics in this forum can appreciate the self-serving biblical interpretation of homosexuals on homosexuality. The organization name Human Rights Campaign is misleading. It is really working solely as a gay lobby to place candidates in federal and state positions helpful to the homosexual agenda. Its name should be Homosexist Rights Campaign.

The Truth about HRC & Same Sex Marriage!
,

 

[zach_dunn]

See post number 38.

Also I’d appreciate it if you don’t call me ‘Catholic’

Thank you. And it’s kind of difficult for me to not call you ‘Catholic’, considering you identify yourself as such, and you apparently attend a Catholic Church. How do you identify yourself?

 

[zach_dunn]

rockerchar & Hail_Linus:

Your discussion is confusing homosexuality, which is not condemned in the Bible with homosexual acts, which are.

CCC 2357:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

I understand what you’re saying though. Homosexuals are not in sin simply for having those feelings. It only becomes sin when one acts on those feelings.

 

[zach_dunn]

In response to a previous post, I object to CCC 2357 because CCC 2357 does not constitute infallible Church dogma. It cites biblical and CDF documents:

Really? So you get to discard anything you want in the Catechism if it is not declared infallibly and you simply don’t like it? It doesn’t need to be infallible to require our assent to this teaching. The teaching has the weight of the Church behind it which we must obey if we are to remain Catholic. Is your homosexual priest an advocate of same-sex marriage as well?

141 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10.
142 CDF, Persona humana 8.

The biblical sources can be readily interpreted in other ways.
The CDF is authoritative but not infallible.

I might add not soundly interpreted in other ways. Interpreting the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as pertaining to ‘hospitality’ rather than homosexual acts goes against the orthodox Jewish and Christian understanding of the passage which had been the same for over 2000 years. Here’s something I find many people don’t understand: secular society being ok with something does not make it morally correct. Secular society advocates the genocide of infants. Is that morally ok? I don’t presume to know how you feel on the matter so I will choose not speculate on what you believe regarding abortion.

Also, what’s the point of being authoritative if they are not listened to? If you are Catholic in some sense you will understand that the Church teaches that God guides the Church and that the Holy Spirit is with her. She has debated this matter much throughout it’s history and the teaching is the same and will remain the same: homosexual acts, relationships, etc., are sinful. Period.

 

[MarkInOregon]

.

IWell, perhaps one way might be to allow gay couples to enter into committed relationships and receive the same benefits as their hetero counterparts, including rights of inheritance, division of property, etc, which is what marriage was created for in the first place.

I also always find it confusing that Christians condemn both gay marriage and gay people who act on their orientation. If I understand it correctly, Catholics expect gay men and women to remain celibate their entire life. How realistic is that?

Peace.

1a. Marriage was not created for passing property in the first place.
1b. Married and single people with any sizeable estate to pass–use wills and trusts to pass their estates to their heirs. They do this because intestancy laws very from state to state and usually do pass the estate as desired. The will or trust is the common was to divide your property not state intestate law. The benefit you claim gay people want is a benefit married people today use wills and trusts to avoid. This idea that gay people cannot pass property to each other is simply wrong. They can–there is no law preventing them from drafting a will or trust like married people do.

1. The Catholic Church expects any unmarried person to be celibate. It is realistic. It may be difficult in our society–which constantly sends the message that the goal of life is to have sex and sexualizes everything. You seem to be of the opinion that humans can’t control themselves or their desires–that we are simply animals that must act on our desires. I reject that–we are human not animal–we can control our actions, we can discipline ourselves, we do not have to act on every impulse we have–we are better than that–or at least we used to be. Western society has turned a beautiful and intimate act of self giving into something cheap and common making it an act of selfish taking–western society has turned it on its head. Me Me Me give Me what I want NOW Just do it Me Me Me. We are better than that–it is time for people to wake up.

Peace,
Mark

 

[rockerchar]

Really? So you get to discard anything you want in the Catechism if it is not declared infallibly and you simply don’t like it? It doesn’t need to be infallible to require our assent to this teaching. The teaching has the weight of the Church behind it which we must obey if we are to remain Catholic. Is your homosexual priest an advocate of same-sex marriage as well?

I might add not soundly interpreted in other ways. Interpreting the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as pertaining to ‘hospitality’ rather than homosexual acts goes against the orthodox Jewish and Christian understanding of the passage which had been the same for over 2000 years. Here’s something I find many people don’t understand: secular society being ok with something does not make it morally correct. Secular society advocates the genocide of infants. Is that morally ok? I don’t presume to know how you feel on the matter so I will choose not speculate on what you believe regarding abortion.

Also, what’s the point of being authoritative if they are not listened to? If you are Catholic in some sense you will understand that the Church teaches that God guides the Church and that the Holy Spirit is with her. She has debated this matter much throughout it’s history and the teaching is the same and will remain the same: homosexual acts, relationships, etc., are sinful. Period.

Not at all.

In my case, I would replace “not liking it” with “obligation of conscience.”
I would replace “unsound” with “convincing.”

My priest personally agrees with gay marriage.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

rocker

My priest personally agrees with gay marriage.

Ask him if he has the courage of his convictions. Ask him if he has sent a letter to his bishop advising him that he would like to officiate at weddings of gay Catholics and seeks the bishop’s permission.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

rocker

My priest personally agrees with gay marriage.

Ask him if he has the courage of his convictions. Ask him if he has sent a letter to his bishop advising him that he would like to officiate at weddings of gay Catholics and seeks the bishop’s permission.

Well, they (the priest, the spiritual director and the poster) might as well form another protesting sect and hang a shingle outside their chapel as Dignity did, since they hold theological ‘opinions’ in opposition to Catholic Church teaching on homosexuality and gay ‘marriage.’ I asked if the poster is a member of Dignity which (s)he denied,although the book (s)he recommended is written by an expelled Jesuit who founded a Dignity chapter and (s)he offered the website of HRC, the nation’s largest gay lobby, as source of materials on how Scriptures are to be interpreted. :whacky:
,

 

[rockerchar]

Well, they (the priest, the spiritual director and the poster) might as well form another protesting sect and hang a shingle outside their chapel as Dignity did, since they hold theological ‘opinions’ in opposition to Catholic Church teaching on homosexuality and gay ‘marriage.’ I asked if the poster is a member of Dignity which (s)he denied,although the book (s)he recommended is written by an expelled Jesuit who founded a Dignity chapter and (s)he offered the website of HRC, the nation’s largest gay lobby, as source of materials on how Scriptures are to be interpreted. :whacky:
,

what does hang a shingle outside their chapel mean?

 

[Holly3278]

It harms society by promoting immorality.

 

[utah_rose]

how does gay marriage harm society?

oldsite.alliancedefensefund.org/userdocs/How_SSM_Affects_Your_Marriage.pdf

impactapologetics.com/product.asp?cookiecheck=yes&P_ID=288&strPageHistory=related

impactapologetics.com/product.asp?P_ID=937&numRecordPosition=2&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&strSearchCriteria=&PT_ID=87

amazon.com/Queer-Thing-Happened-America-Strange/dp/0615406092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306770221&sr=1-1

If there was a majority of homosexual unions, this would harm society because families would be in the minority, therefore the birth of children would be hindered (even more than today through contraception and abortion).

Secondly, businesses would be forced to participate in these “marriages” even if it was against their conscience.

Catholic adoption agencies have already closed because of not letting homosexual couples adopt. Children need both a father and a mother in the best circumstances.

Churches could be forced not to even condemn homosexuality in the pulpit. This has already been done in Canada—and is referred to a “hate” crime.

Children would be forced to learn in schools that these relationships are normal. The next step would be heterosexual marriage would be abnormal. Catholic schools in Britain are being forced to teach that gay marriage is okay.

How long would it be if this was the rule of the land, that the Supreme Court could force our Catholic schools to do the same, or be accused of a hate crime.

These are all things that would affect society. Granted, all heterosexual marriages aren’t perfect, but this should be no excuse for the homosexuals who insist on sexual relationships to proclaim therefore that theirs are superior. There’s already evidence of promiscuity in these relationships, so that excuse “won’t hold water”.

Their agenda won’t be satisfied with marriage, they want everyone else to believe the same way, and will force the courts to make sure this happens.

Note, I am only talking about homosexual marriages or even unions. I am not condemning homosexuals who are trying to live chastely even though they are under a great cross that is hard for the rest of us to understand. But gay marriage is not the answer, just as unmarried heterosexuals living together isn’t either.

 

[Aramis]

Most of my homosexual friends and acquaintances want “gay marriage”, but not a one of them actually has expressed any desire to be in such a union.

A boy raised by two lesbians sees that he’s not essential to a family unit; he may not even be aware until age 10 that male genetic contributions are required for reproduction. And then he sees that males are a disposable part of such a union, to be used then discarded.

A girl raised by two gay males sees that women are a disposable part of the threesome responsible for her existence as well, but is more likely to be aware of the nature of the female reproductive role, due to the obviousness of pregnancy. Most 6 year olds know that only females can get pregnant. Few know HOW, but many know who.

And biology class will reinforce that it’s a non-productive union that is raising them, and it’s unnatural.

And further, the root of Matrimony is mother-maker. One can justify plural marriage as modeled in nature, but not same-sex union. (Plural marriage is still wrong, but it’s not nearly AS wrong.)

 

[rockerchar]

And further, the root of Matrimony is mother-maker. One can justify plural marriage as modeled in nature, but not same-sex union. (Plural marriage is still wrong, but it’s not nearly AS wrong.)

I beg to differ.

We are catechized that the sacrament of matrimony is about exclusivity and indissolubility.

Gay marriage/union applies the same rules to LGBT orientation.

Plural marriage is apples to oranges with gay unions because it seeks to re-understand the exclusive nature of matrimony.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

what does hang a shingle outside their chapel mean?

A direct answer to your question:

It means after you, your spiritual director and priest form your own church, you can hang a sign outside with a descriptive name of your church, perhaps, but Catholic would not describe the beliefs and views you have asserted in this forum.

What is amazing is in Post 38 you claimed to be a practicing Catholic, yet expressed dissent on core Catholic teaching on homosexuality and gay ‘marriage’, and made references to HRC FAQs and site, works of gay Christian biblical scholars like Chris Glaser, and John McNeill, an ex-Catholic priest whom you endorsed.

Your priest whom you said is gay and supports gay marriage probably thought about it already, but he could form a Dignity chapter, like John McNeill did in New York City.

Now, it’s your turn to give a direct answer to my question: What do you hope to achieve in joining CAF?
,

 

[Big_Dummy]

From the other side of the fence, how does gay marriage help society?

Maybe, if gays are commited to one on one contracts, relationships it would quil the spread of aids in bath houses, where it is apparently a free for all.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Maybe, if gays are commited to one on one contracts, relationships it would quil the spread of aids in bath houses, where it is apparently a free for all.

That’s a big maybe even as pro-gay ‘marriage’ advocates sell the concept of gay monogamy.

Open Monogamy

Many Successful Gay Marriages Share an Open Secret

And looking at the Netherlands where same sex marriage was first legalized in 2001.

Study Finds Gay Unions Brief

*The Dutch study — which focused on transmission of HIV — found that men in homosexual relationships on average have eight partners a year outside those relationships.

Earlier studies also indicated that homosexual men are not monogamous, even when they are involved in long-term relationships.*
,

 

[zach_dunn]

Not at all.

Too bad your conscience apparently doesn’t come with reasons for your beliefs.

In my case, I would replace “not liking it” with “obligation of conscience.”
I would replace “unsound” with “convincing.”

These two sentences mean nothing if you don’t back them up with reasons.

My priest personally agrees with gay marriage.

Then it would seem that you and your priest need to have a long talk with your bishop!

 

[rockerchar]

Too bad your conscience apparently doesn’t come with reasons for your beliefs.

These two sentences mean nothing if you don’t back them up with reasons.

Then it would seem that you and your priest need to have a long talk with your bishop!

I have no reasons that you would accept because you seem let the current Church leadership do your thinking for you.

 

[zach_dunn]

I have no reasons that you would accept because you seem let the current Church leadership do your thinking for you.

You wouldn’t know if I would accept them because you haven’t given them. Also, I don’t allow them to do my thinking for me; that’s a very Protestant thing for someone to say. I agree with their analysis and teaching. Also, I believe the Scriptures are true and teach that homosexual acts are wrong. And I will continually believe so unless I am convinced otherwise by someone who will give me reasons for what they believe. Not just a play on emotions, either: real reasons, with facts. Something you’ve neglected to give me.

 

[Eugenius]

I get frustrated with these gay marriage discussions. The justifications for being against gay marriage (role models, promiscuity, God’s intent, procreation, agendas, etc.) are meaningless when the divorce rate is around 50%. You could take just about every point made for being against gay marriage and apply it to heterosexual marriage, but I never see honest discussions like that on this forum. We seem to hold homosexuals to a higher standard than we do heterosexuals. I can accept people following the church’s teaching, but these other excuses are starting to ring false with me.