How does God bring good out of evil: When a 5 year old girl is raped and murdered?

  • Thread starter Thread starter RealisticCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
And our response is also at his initiative
This might also explain your superstition. You already said that it was God who started with His inspiration. Then you say that He also starts your response. This would mean that God is responsible for not starting a good response for someone else. This is clearly favoritism and goes against Holy Scripture and Tradition. Just because Aquinas taught it doesn’t make it right, he was terribly wrong on this topic. Most people in the RCC do not believe this nonsense anymore. Only Calvinists should be teaching this gross misunderstanding of God’s actions. We are the difference between whether we will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven or will be cast off. The opportunity for Heaven is given to all man, the choice is ours.
 
Last edited:
You are spot on here.

A lot of Saints have said a lot of things. Ironic: my confirmation name is Augustine. While Saint Augustine inspires me concerning the wickedness and lack of morals in contemporary society, because I got his headspace, Saint Augustine does not inspire others in a similar fashion (e.g., my wife).

Saint Augustine has stated at least a couple things that proved dogmatically incorrect. Saint Augustine may have been correct for a particular situation, but his wit/wisdom can not be extrapolated to the grander world.

No Pope has ever decreed every word of a Saint is infallible. If that was true and Chesterton is determined to be a Saint, then our Church would be revolutionizes instantly.

Most of these dogmatic fallacies have foundations in relativism. The situation may be true in this instance, but untrue in others. The basic foundation to this are the Ten Commandments and Our Saviour’s Words. Anything outside of that is situational and not universal.

This relativism is precisely what divides the social/liberal moralists from exactly one half of the population.
 
Last edited:
God is not happy when a 5 year old girl is raped and murdered. That’s not part of His plan. But God can bring good out of anything. Maybe the rapist goes to jail and turns his life around and helps others do the same. I don’t know. We don’t have to know everything.
 
In any event, these things do happen. I think these questions are raised as an attempt to say how wrong these things are and that they should not be happening. And that is true. But they do happen.
And it’s also true that we all die, and that is not to our liking either. So the question must be how are we going to live as whole people, rather than as victims?

We can choose to live our lives as if sin and death is the only and final answer, and we can complain against God and against death.
Or we can develop a deep gratitude for the whole of life. Gratitude for all of it, and stop trying to constrain God to our understanding and to our own wishes. Letting God be God does cast a large responsibility on us to be the best people we can be in the face of evil.
Gratitude is not a capitulation in the face of evil, or a denial of it’s effects, gratitude puts evil in proper perspective.
Even Christ struggled with it in the Garden. In his humanity he asked the same question any other suffering human asks: “please no suffering”.
And in the midst of it Christ also gave us the Eucharist, or “thanksgiving”.
 
Last edited:
My favorite Scripture is the account of the 2 other men on crosses when our Lord was crucified. It teaches us the whole gospel and presents the choice before us of life or death. The wicked one, like many today want God to be a savior only to get us back to a life of pleasure and self-will contrary to God. He, like many today, think if God really has any power, He should protect them from physical harm. The other thief on the cross knew that the physical harm that he was undergoing was the result of his poor choices to disobey God and to seek a life of pleasure. He knew that only God could forgive him and take him back, determined to no longer live away from God, but asking to be remembered in the Kingdom of Heaven. His life was not wasted, although his physical life was depleted, he was taught to return to God, who is Life.
 
Second synod of Orange. I’m not superstitious, the fathers are simply wider than the east.
 
Well, it’s quite simple. The Church has defined, at the second synod of orange (accepted and promulgated by Pope Boniface II) that man cannot approach God unless God enables him by his grace. But moreover, when God acts and grants man grace to come to him, even the decision to choose the grace is a grace.

For example, in the canons of the synod we read-

Canon 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

Canon 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him “unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3).

In Spirit, the Orthodox accept the content of these canons, but not this council per se, though it occurred in the 6th century.

This is an example of the selective reading and bias that many Orthodox display in their “patristic” theology. But not only this, there are innovations that are clearly contrary to the fathers. The essence/energies distinction as a real distinction in God, and not simply a mental, or virtual distinction as taught by Dionysius the Areopagite and St. John of Damascus for example. The fact that the east created scholasticism, not the west, which essentially imitated St. John of Damascus (who used aristotles metaphysics in his theology!!!).

These canons for example are not the product of scholastic legalism, but the fathers. Yet to adhere to them is to be accused as a legalist as I was earlier.
 
I’ve read all the Ecumenical Councils. What are you arguing, what is your stance, and why do you think that?
 
Jesus died on the cross for this stuff, before it ever happened, knowing that it would happen. This is where my Protestant background helps massively. The payment for our sins occurred outside of the time they happened, according to God’s Grace. That act happened in real time and outside of time, God paid for it and came to the cross. We don’t really know. But we cling to the faith xxx
 
Last edited:
The story I’m referring to is here.

But familiarly with that story in particular is not necessary for the question.

How do we account for God’s allowing of evil when something so heinous can occur to young children – especially when their life is cut short? What good is brought from this? Do we just say Heaven awaits such victims?

Do we not expect God to prevent these kinds of things in His Providence?
No, we do not expect God to prevent sin done by those that do it. Providence is for the purpose of the end not the process: that all creatures should manifest the glory of God particularly that humans should glorify Him.

Heaven may or may not await victims, depending upon their final state of sanctifying grace.
 
Providence is for the purpose of the end not the process
You had me until this point: God does not want your love because Heaven is an end goal. God wants your love regardless of the outcome.
 
40.png
Vico:
Providence is for the purpose of the end not the process
You had me until this point: God does not want your love because Heaven is an end goal. God wants your love regardless of the outcome.
I must not be explaining it correctly. God does not need our love, but God is sharing divinity. When we cooperate with the gift of grace and attain to heavenly state, finally, we receive glory.

Catechism
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

293 Scripture and Tradition never cease to teach and celebrate this fundamental truth: "The world was made for the glory of God."134 St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things “not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it”,135 for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: "Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand."136 The First Vatican Council explains:
This one, true God, of his own goodness and “almighty power”, not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel "and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . ."137
 
You have to ask a more specific question. I adhere to all the dogmatic definitions of the councils, the unanimous consent of the fathers, all local synods given papal approbation, the teaching of scripture and the unanimous consensus of the scholastics.

I prefer the language and terminology of the eastern fathers, espouse the Christian Neoplatonism of Augustine, Dionysius and Bonaventure (and St Thomas for that matter!) and hold to the strict option for the fate of unbaptized infants as allowable by the Church in her judgments.

So what are you asking?

BTW it’s not possible that you have read all the ecumenical councils, the acts no longer exist for some. You may have read excerpts or canons or chapters, but that is not the entirety of an ecumenical council. Or can you point me to the horos of the 5th ecumenical council, or the complete acts of the the 3rd?
 
Last edited:
No man can answer this.

We as human beings have finite minds, and finite capacities for understanding. It is impossible for us to know all of God’s intentions or motives (for lack of better terms).
 
I must not be explaining it correctly. God does not need our love, but God is sharing divinity. When we cooperate with the gift of grace and attain to heavenly state, finally, we receive glory.
The quotes you provided from the catechism have nothing to do with what we are talking about. In any situation, we have the choice to love or sin. Our actions in a given situation are binary: they are in God’s accord or not. God gave us that choice.

One can not look upon a man created horror and say, God will make this a beautiful thing. That is irresponsible as a human. We have the choice of free will: we can either be sinners or saints.

If someone claims that man can commit a horror and God will make beauty of that situation, then that person is narcissistic to the core. That goes against ever single teaching of Catholicism.

I would still like to know your thoughts in your own words.
 
So what are you asking?
What is your stance on the topic at hand in your own words?
BTW it’s not possible that you have read all the ecumenical councils, the acts no longer exist for some. You may have read excerpts or canons or chapters, but that is not the entirety of an ecumenical council. Or can you point me to the horos of the 5th ecumenical council, or the complete acts of the the 3rd?
Naturally, man. No one implied otherwise. We do not live in a world of absolute truths on any subject other than the Ten Commandments and Our Lord & Savior’s words.
 
Last edited:
I suggest you read about Maria Goretti. She was older, but still a child. Read, also, about her attacker. Just because you can’t see the good that’s brought out of evil doesn’t mean it’s there. Do you not agree, that when a murder happens, that life in prison is more just than giving the murderer the chance to do it again? Man has freewill, these “why does God allow evil” arguments fall flat, because they go too far into the other direction. God allows evil because man chooses evil. If the evil our first parents had done (and my name sake) would not have been done, Jesus would not have come to redeem us. Of course, you could argue that he might not have needed to, but, I’ll leave that up to theologians. Personally, and I don’t pretend to know you’re mind, that you’re not thinking through the logic of your question. I have to go take care of my adopted niece that was conceived whilst her biological mother was in prison, she came out of that, and a child is a good thing.
 
If someone claims that man can commit a horror and God will make beauty of that situation, then that person is narcissistic to the core.
How does that make someone narcissistic? I don’t see the connection? Also, I would argue that if you don’t think God will make good of the situation, you don’t really believe in God’s Providence. Christians believe that God is in full control of the events of creation, though not responsible for the events directly. In His wisdom, events most beneficial for the salvation of all are either allowed or directed by God, no matter how grim they seem from our perspective. The real reasons are hidden from our minds, but we can at least acknowledge that it must be for some good reason that an evil event was allowed to occur. At the minimum, it helps us to snap out of our delusion that this life is all that matters, instead of living a life like Christ, dying to this world and its addictions, and living for the eternal Kingdom in the Heavens. The Soul of a person cannot be harmed by those that harm the body, only the person themselves can harm their own soul.
 
Here’s the stance in simplicity- God allowed this manifest his glory on the last day- the justice toward both the victim and the perp and perhaps his mercy toward the victim and the perp, should the perp repent. Glory to God for all things in all things, even in my suffering.

As Job would say.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top