How does God create "the act of existing" out of nothing?

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CCC, para 285 : " 285 Since the beginning the Christian faith has been challenged by responses to the question of origins that differ from its own. Ancient religions and cultures produced many myths concerning origins. Some philosophers have said that everything is God, that the world is God, or that the development of the world is the development of God (Pantheism). …" All these may be termed Pantheism, though the Church identifies only the last as Pantheism. And whether or not the others can be properly termed Pantheism, all of these notions are equally condemned by the Church.

Linus2nd
I see. Well I think we all believe that God is developed and perfect and changeless. I am an open minded catholic and understand that sometimes the church can misunderstand others and others misunderstand the church. :tiphat:Like protestants love to say catholics worship Mary. Ridiculous.

B
 
I just kind of came into this thread and it’s so long I haven’t read it all. But is it being said that reality is in the mind of God? We are God’s thoughts?
 
I just kind of came into this thread and it’s so long I haven’t read it all. But is it being said that reality is in the mind of God? We are God’s thoughts?
Not really, the whole thing is a take off from another thread by the O.P. Check his stats and you will find it.

Linus2nd
 
I don’t know what you mean by being. But If the “act of existing” is not a nature in and of itself, then we are not talking about a “power” or an act. We are talking about nothing at all.
According to Thomas and Aristotle, Philosophy is the science which studies being qua being, that is things which exist simply as existing. So a being is anything which exists, whether substances or accidents.

Now Thomas has taught that God is Purus Actus Subsistens, that is Pure Subsisting Act, or we can say God is He Who simply Exists. But to exist is to be and to be is an act. To be is an action, it is the exercise of a being.. To be is to exercise the act of existenc, the act of being, the act of to be ( synomynous, equvical phrases )

So what is it to be or to exist ? In God it is His Essence. But in created beings it is not. Created beings do exist but existence is not a being, it is what makes a created being to be a being, it makes it exist. It is the act which makes a created being real. For a created being, existence is the act which makes it real, it is its act of existence or its act of being.

Now the term being can be used as a Noun, a Verb, or a Participle. In the explanation above I have used it all three ways.

So what is this act of existence which you used, which Thomas used so extensively, this act of to be, this act of being, which Thomas says is the principle which, together with the principle of essence, makes a being to be an actually existing substance?

All Thomas says it that it is a being’s act. But we already know that an act is not a thing or a being or a substance. He likens it to a sort of accident, but absolutely essential, more essential even that a substance’s matter, because it suffuses both the matter and the form or essence, making the composition exist as a real being. So would it be so wrong to call it a power, a power which makes a being exist?

Isn’t an act which makes a being exist the same as a power ? Thomas never tells us ( as far as I know ).

Can you tell me what life is, what energy is, what electricity is, what gravity is, what magnatism is? Is it so so hard to understand that the act of existing cannot be more accurately described or defined than I have done?

All we can say is that it is something, but a something more like a power than a being.
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This is why Duns Scotus abandoned the notion. But since history has shown that there is no valid philosophy without it, I hang onto it.

Linus2nd
 
Not really, the whole thing is a take off from another thread by the O.P. Check his stats and you will find it.

Linus2nd
Linusthe:

How are you so sure (that we are not thoughts, in the mind of God)? We consist of 99.9% space. That means that we are somewhere around 0.1% something. And that’s not just us - that’s everything.

How do people convince themselves that they are semi-solids and solids? How do they convince themselves that steel is solid?

I don’t think you can so flippantly answer these questions with a, “not really.”

God bless.
jd
 
Linusthe:

How are you so sure (that we are not thoughts, in the mind of God)? We consist of 99.9% space. That means that we are somewhere around 0.1% something. And that’s not just us - that’s everything.

How do people convince themselves that they are semi-solids and solids? How do they convince themselves that steel is solid?

I don’t think you can so flippantly answer these questions with a, “not really.”

God bless.
jd
I don’t think I was being flippant, the poster asked a simple question, but admitted he hadn’t read the entire thread. I explained that it was a take-off from another thread called
" Is God the esse of all contingent essences? " and a new thread has appeared by the same person on the same general issue. ( the new thread is called, " do we exist in the mind of God. " ).

But to answer your question; we are not thouthts in the mind of God. The proof of this is that God created the heavens and the earth and all creatures in them. This the solemn teaching of the Church and it is supported by many sources int the Scriptures and through philosophical argument. God is absolutely other than and transcendent to His creatures.

On the other hand God knows all that He has created and also knows us as Ideas in His mind.

So we are thoughts in the mind of God but we are much more. We are actually existing beings which exist outside the mind of God.

Thomas discusses this in Part 1 of the S.T. on Creation and Governance and Providence.

Also, the Church teaches and so does Thomas that God is intimately present to every speck of His creation by His Substance as any cause must be immediatel present to the things it causes.

You can see how carefully we must be in discussing these things. It is so easy for people to get the wrong idea and people today do not seem capable of the kind of reflective thought to really understand what they are hearing or reading.

Linus2nd
 
I

But to answer your question; we are not thouthts in the mind of God. The proof of this is that God created the heavens and the earth and all creatures in them. This the solemn teaching of the Church and it is supported by many sources int the Scriptures and through philosophical argument. God is absolutely other than and transcendent to His creatures.

Linus2nd
How does this disprove that we exist in Gods mind? Saying that God is transcendent only means that Gods nature is not the nature of creation. This does not mean that we do not have our being in the mind of God.
 
How does this disprove that we exist in Gods mind? Saying that God is transcendent only means that Gods nature is not the nature of creation. This does not mean that we do not have our being in the mind of God.
God created the heavens and the earth and all creatrues in them. That means that we are completely other than God and He is entirely other than the creatures He created. Or, as you say, the natures of creatures and the God’s nature are entirely different. God is Infinite and Eternal, we are finite and limited. From a reasonable point of view, that should mean that we exist outside the mind of God, in the world He created for us.

But of course He knows all His creatures and He has Ideas of us in His Intellect. But His Being and our being are not mixed in any way.

Linus2nd
 
God created the heavens and the earth and all creatrues in them. That means that we are completely other than God and He is entirely other than the creatures He created. Or, as you say, the natures of creatures and the God’s nature are entirely different. God is Infinite and Eternal, we are finite and limited. From a reasonable point of view, that should mean that we exist outside the mind of God, in the world He created for us.

But of course He knows all His creatures and He has Ideas of us in His Intellect. But His Being and our being are not mixed in any way.

Linus2nd
How does it follow from the idea that our nature is distinct from God that therefore we do not have our being in the mind of God. You are just asserting a logical conflict.
 
How does it follow from the idea that our nature is distinct from God that therefore we do not have our being in the mind of God. You are just asserting a logical conflict.
It should be clear. But we could also say that if we existed in the mind of God, that would introduce composition into His Nature. And if that were so God would not be God. God is absolutely Simple and uncomposed, therefore we cannot exist in the mind of God. Also, how can the finite and contingent be a part of the Infinite and Eternal?

Linus2nd
 
It should be clear. But we could also say that if we existed in the mind of God, that would introduce composition into His Nature. And if that were so God would not be God. God is absolutely Simple and uncomposed, therefore we cannot exist in the mind of God. Also, how can the finite and contingent be a part of the Infinite and Eternal?

Linus2nd
And once again you are making a straw-man. I never said that God is a part of our essence. Not once has this been said.

God’s nature does not become composed of anything on the basis of something distinct from God existing in the mind of God; nothing you have said proves that to be the case. Neither does being conjoined to something make his nature identical to the essence of creation. Even Fesser himself says that “esse” does not become identical to essence even after being conjoined.
 
God is outside the physical and outside of time, nothing is impossible for God, I’m dirt, which is nothing, God can do wonders with nothing !
 
And once again you are making a straw-man. I never said that God is a part of our essence. Not once has this been said.
And I never said you did. I said that is the inferrential conclusion from your belief that the Esse of God is the esse of creatures. The reader is invited to peruse the debate from the beginning to see that what I say is true.
God’s nature does not become composed of anything on the basis of something distinct from God existing in the mind of God; nothing you have said proves that to be the case.
And I disagree.
Neither does being conjoined to something make his nature identical to the essence of creation.
I never said that. I said you have made God ( since you cannot divide Esse from God ) part of the essence of created things.
Even Fesser himself says that “esse” does not become identical to essence even after being conjoined.
But Feser never said the esse of God was the esse of creatures, which is what you said and do say. Of course Feser said esse is not identical to essence. And I agree. But you left out the previous point, that this Esse is the esse of creatures.

Again, I encourage the reader to read the arguments to see who is telling the truth.

Linus2nd
 
I never said that. I said you have made God ( since you cannot divide Esse from God ) part of the essence of created things.
No i haven’t, since esse remains absolutely distinct from contingent essences even after being conjoined.
But Feser never said the esse of God was the esse of creatures,
Its irrelevant. If in principle esse remains distinct from contingent essences, this does not change when we say that God is esse and can conjoin his esse to potential essences.
 
No i haven’t, since esse remains absolutely distinct from contingent essences even after being conjoined.

Its irrelevant. If in principle esse remains distinct from contingent essences, this does not change when we say that God is esse and can conjoin his esse to potential essences.
I refer the reader to all my prior arguments. Esp. see posts 17 and 125.

Linus2nd
 
1 Sentences, Distinction 37, Question 1 ( Thomas’ Commentary )
Whether God is in things.
Solution: I answer that it should be said that God is essentially in all things, not nonetheless so that he is mixed together with things as if he were a part of any thing. To make this evident, it is necessary to note three points. First, it is necessary that a mover and a thing moved and an operating agent and a thing made exist simultaneously, as is proven in Book 7 of the Physics. But this occurs in a different way in corporeal things and spiritual things. For, because a body by its essence, which is circumscribed by the boundaries of quantity, is determined to some position, it cannot be that a moving body and a moved body are in the same position. Hence, it is necessary that they exist simultaneously by contact, and in this way, a body causes change by its own power, because by all means it can, up to some point, change another thing which is unchanged that is immediately united to it. However, a spiritual substance—the essence of which is wholly independent of quantity or position and, consequently, a place—is not separated from that which it moves by place or position. But where the thing that is moved is, there is the mover itself. The soul, for instance, is in the body, and the power that moves the heavens is said to be on the right side of the sphere that it moves—motion begins from this point, as is established in Book 8 of the Physics.
The second point is that the being of any thing and of any part of it comes immediately from God, because, according to faith, we maintain that only God creates. To create, however, is to give being. The third point is that that which is the cause of being cannot desist from the operation by which being is given without the thing itself also ceasing to be. For, as Avicenna says in Book 1, Chapter 11 of the Physics, the difference between the divine agent and a natural agent is that a natural agent is only a cause of motion, and the divine agent is the cause of being. Hence, according to him, when any efficient cause is withdrawn, its effect is removed, and therefore, when a builder is withdrawn, a house’s being is not destroyed—the being whose cause is the weight of the stones that remains—but the house’s becoming is destroyed—the becoming whose cause was the builder. And similarly, when the cause of being is withdrawn, being is destroyed. For this reason, Gregory says in Book 16, Chapter 37 of Morals that all things would fall into nothingness if the hand of the omnipotent one were not preserving them. Hence, it is necessary that his operation by which he gives being be not intermittent but continuous, and for this reason, it is said in John 5:17, My father is at work until now, and I am at work. From all these points, it is plainly inferred that God is most intimate to every thing just as the being that is proper to a thing is most intimate to the thing itself, which can neither begin nor last except by God’s operation through which he is united to his work so that he is in it.
To the first, therefore, it should be said that, although the divine essence is not intrinsic to a thing as if it is a part entering into its constitution, it is nonetheless within a thing as if it is something that operates on and causes the being of each thing. In this way, it must be in every thing as an incorporeal agent, as is clear from what was said before.
To the second, it should be said that that which acts through its own absence is not the proximate cause of an effect, but the remote. For instance, the sun’s power exists at first and principally in the body united to it, and it exists in another way successively at every point until the farthest thing. This power is its light by which it acts on these lower things, as Avicenna says in Book 1, Chapter 2 of the Physics. Similarly, it is clear that a king giving an order is the primary cause of an effect, but the one executing the order is the cause that is proximate and united to the effect. God, however, operates immediately in all things. Hence, it is necessary that he be in all things.
To the third, it should be said that, as is clear from what was said before, a thing’s being cannot be conserved without a cause of being, just as motion cannot be conserved without a cause that moves. Hence, if a thing’s being is conserved without some agent, that agent will not be a cause of being, but only a cause of becoming, as a seal is the cause of a shape in wax. For this reason, when the seal is withdrawn, the shape remains, as was also said about a builder. This is an imperfect agent. Hence, the argument proceeds from false premises.
To the fourth, it should be said that, with respect to the same operation, there cannot be a twofold proximate cause in the same way, but there can be in a different way. This is clear from the following considerations. An operation is reduced as to its principle into two things: the agent itself and the agent’s power by which an operation goes forth, in a mediated way, from an agent. However, the more an agent is proximate and immediate, the more is its power mediated, and the power of the first agent is the most immediate. This is clear in the outer-most members of a series. A, B, and C are three ordered causes so that C is the last, which exercises an operation. It is then an established fact that C exercises an operation by its own power, and it is by the power of B and, more than that, by the power of A that C can do this by its own power. Hence, if it is asked why C operates, the answer is by its own power. And if it asked why by its own power, it is on account of the power of B. And it will be asked in this way until it is lead back to the power of the first cause…

If any one cares, this should prove that God’s creatures do not exist in His Mind

Linus2nd
 
Whether God is in things.
Solution: I answer that it should be said that God is essentially in all things, not nonetheless so that he is mixed together with things as if he were a part of any thing.

Linus2nd
Since I have not said that God is a “Part” of any-things “essence”, I see no conflict between me and Aquinas on this Point at least. Also a conflict between me an Aquinas does not necessarily mean that my argument is wrong or in conflict with the faith.
 
No i haven’t, since esse remains absolutely distinct from contingent essences even after being conjoined.

Its irrelevant. If in principle esse remains distinct from contingent essences, this does not change when we say that God is esse and can conjoin his esse to potential essences.
This may be so, but esse and essence are both equally and fully parts of the creature. It is not as though something’s esse is not a part of it. There is no getting around this. If God is the esse of contingent essences, then the beings thus created by this conjunction are thereby God. An essence does not really exist without an act of existence. God’s act of existence is God. It cannot not be God.

Of course, this says nothing as to whether or not you’re right, but you should at least concede that what you are arguing is not compatible with Catholicism. If not pantheism as traditionally conceived, it is something very close. Polypantheism, perhaps.
 
Linusthe:

How are you so sure (that we are not thoughts, in the mind of God)? We consist of 99.9% space. That means that we are somewhere around 0.1% something. And that’s not just us - that’s everything.

How do people convince themselves that they are semi-solids and solids? How do they convince themselves that steel is solid?

I don’t think you can so flippantly answer these questions with a, “not really.”

God bless.
jd
JD,
I don’t think that the other respondents in this thread or any number of other threads understand or grasp the amazing significances of what you are alluding to. I feel compelled to add to your thoughts with the following response (slightly altered)I made to another thread about a similar subject. I will only respond to anyone that has the least inkling of what we both understand as one of the more amazing characteristic of God, namely that we along with every particle of matter in the universe are immersed in the spiritual substance (that we refer to as infinite nothingness) that can only be described as the Mind of God, a mind that has thoughts, but thoughts of a different nature than ours.

Here is that response:
Creatio ex nihilo, creation from nothing, is a fundamental doctrine of Catholicism. Furthermore, it is the position of Catholic theology that the Big Bang theory does not contradict the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo as long as the BB theory implies an absolute beginning.

The Big Bang theory states that not only did matter, time, and energy emerge from a singularity, but so too did the space that gives dimensionality to the universe.

How “space” emerged from whatever the singularity was immersed in can only be imagined by assuming two modalities of space. Our finite universe has a border (yeh, I know all about Einstein’s solution) that must be spatial.

This is not a problem because we can identify two modalities of space: the continuous and the discrete, both of which can be modeled mathematically. The Cantor-Dedekind axiom states that that the real numbers are order-isomorphic to the linear continuum of geometry. In other words the axiom states that there is a one to one correspondence between real numbers and points on a line. Cantor also showed that there are as many points on the real number line as there are in two or three-dimensional space. Hence all points in 3-dimensional space can be associated with the real numbers.

The real numbers, hence continuous space, are described by the second transfinite number, aleph-1. The rational numbers also lie on the real number line, are denumerable, and are described by the first transfinite number aleph-0. Rational numbers define discrete space.

The two modalities of space, discrete and continuous, allow us to explain the duality nature of reality. Objective reality, consisting of the physical elements space, time, matter, energy, is constructed from discrete space, while continuous space provides a spiritual aspect of reality.

Thus, the mathematical properties of the infinite allow us to describe a scenario in which discrete space is crunched into a singularity and is caused to emerge from continuous space.

Because [aleph(1) - aleph(0) = aleph(1)] an infinite amount of discrete space can be removed from an infinite amount of continuous space without changing continuous space one iota; God can create the universe (or an infinite number of universes) from His own substance without change. That is the nature of God, the Infinite.

Relative to God, aleph(0) is nihilo. Since discrete space characteristically has “gaps” between points, God can reduce the size of the gap so that an inordinate number of points fit into an infinitesimal volume, i.e., essentially “nothing”.

And even more so, God does not require an infinite number of “points” to create the universe, He does it with a very large but finite number of points of discrete space that we refer to as s-points.

To those skeptics that may bridle at the thought the matter is composed of some form of space, consider what string theory implies. Also consider that the typical atom whose material size is determined by the position of “point-particle” electrons, is 50,000 times the size of the nucleus and the nucleus is composed of “point-particle” quarks. In other words, matter is mostly empty space.

I contend that the empty space that provides the materiality is the continuous space that provides the spiritual aspect of reality. I call, the continuous space from which the universe emerged, infinite nothingness. It is the Mind of God. We are immersed in the Mind of God.

I contend that what I have presented may not be the truth; I offer it as a plausible “philosophical” explanation for the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo.

Yppop
 
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