How does Marian devotion save?

[moondweller]

MoonWhen St. Paul wrote this letter to Timothy, was he referring to the KJV? Was it out already in print at the time? Did he already know ahead of time that John would be writing the Book of Revelation?
Was St Paul alluding to this letter that he definitely was writing part of the Bible? Where in St. Pauls writings does he make that claim that what he is writing is Sacred Scripture? Where in the Old Testament is there anything that there will be a New Testament? In 2 Tim where does it state that what St. Paul is writing is to be included in the New Testament? Where in the NT is there anything where Jesus commands his apostles to go out and write anything?
Oh, and who determined the Canon of the Bible? If you say the Holy Spirit, show us when and where the Holy Spirit gave somebody an index to the Bible.

2 Tim. 3:16 is a stated fact concerning “ALL” (Gr. pas, the whole) of Scripture. Your questions above are non sequitur. They only reveal that you have a problem with what is clearly stated in that verse. Why? Might it conflict with some doctrines you’ve adopted?

 

[moondweller]

read my question again moon. Please.

I repeat, i did not ask you for a source from the new testament.

I asked you for a source from the old, that’s the o-l-d, testament.

Got it?

Yes, and you yourself have admitted there is no O.T. source and you yourself must appeal to the N.T. passage 2 Tim. 3:16. Got it? But you question that verse and continually put it to the test.

 

[jpink1019]

“The Son of God became man through a Virgin, so that the disobedience caused by the serpent might be destroyed in the same way it had begun. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, gave birth to disobedience and death after listening to the serpent’s words. But the Virgin Mary conceived faith and joy; for when the angel Gabriel brought her the glad tidings that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and that the power of the Most High would overshadow her, so that the Holy One born of her would be the Son of God, she answered, ‘Let it be done to me according to your word’ (Lk 1:38). Thus was born of her the Child of whom so many Scriptures speak, as we have shown. Through Him, God crushed the serpent, along with those angels and men who had become like the serpent.”
St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D.155)

“Eve was seduced by the word of the fallen angel and transgressed God’s word, so that she fled from him. In the same way, Mary was evangelized by the word of an angel and obeyed God’s word, so that she carried him within her. And while the former was seduced into disobeying God, the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary became the advocate of the virgin Eve. And just as the human race was bound to death because of a virgin, so it was set free from death by a Virgin, since the disobedience of one virgin was counterbalanced by a Virgin’s obedience.”
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 5, 19 (A.D. 180)

Is this something that most catholics believe?
or is it taught by the Church?

 

[GaryTaylor]

It doesn’t. period.

Only God deserves devotion.

Can’t seem to understand how one arrives at this assumption. In the New Testament God specifically chose Mary to come to “us”. And without a doubt he expects us to come to him through Mary, to Jesus to God. Could he do whatever he wants? Of course he can he’s God.

But are you really willing to gamble with your Soul? I suggest you make an honest attempt at actually Praying the Rosary and giving it a solid effort. I believe you’ll change your mind.

I also understand that everyone just doesn’t get this. Its a Grace from God. But one point is a definate. You are “not” going to get it without a sincere effort.

You know this comes back to you, no matter how you look at it. Nobody was told to beat Mary into anybodys head. We chose to go to the Blessed Mother because through the Grace of God thats where our faith has led us. And thanks be to God.

But I understand the thinking. I made that mistake for many years. I honestly didn’t think I had to do anythng, but pray to God. And I was hitting my head against the wall for many years. “God” finally said, “Look Dummy, I’m gonna show you the way” And here I stand today. Preaching the very thing which I couldn’t conceive for eternity.

There also were not many along the way telling me to try this. Though there were a few who did make mention of it. Little different here. There are many willing to make an effort to lead you to the truth which definatly evades you. I hope you find the truth. I’ll pray for you to find Mary.

And again its a Grace, everyone just does not receive. And from observation exactly what I have witnessed is just what you see happening on this Post. Many chose to stick to their stubborness and not seek Mary. And it just goes right overhead. Not a big mystery, I get it. Though I am gratefull for those who found the Blessed Mother. Because theres not a doubt in my mind that she removes “all” stumbling blocks through recitation of the Rosary.

 

[TobyLue]

moondweller

2 Tim. 3:16 is a stated fact concerning “ALL” (Gr. pas, the whole) of Scripture. Your questions above are non sequitur. They only reveal that you have a problem with what is clearly stated in that verse. Why? Might it conflict with some doctrines you’ve adopted?

No–the questions are not non sequitur. They apply because you cant seem to answer the question of how do you know St. Paul was talking about the New Testatment since there was no NT then? I have no problem whatsover. It is you that has the problem that has been posed by others here. They do NOT conflict with any of the doctrines of the CC. The doctrines of my Church are the same since before the bible was put together. I’m afraid that your doctrines are actually man-made that did not prop up until some 500 years ago, and some even newer than that.
Again, if you say “all” applies to the NT how did St Paul know that when he was saying “all” it should apply to the NT since St. Paul didnt have the foggiest notion of the KJV.

 

[TobyLue]

GaryTaylor

Can’t seem to understand how one arrives at this assumption. In the New Testament God specifically chose Mary to come to “us”. And without a doubt he expects us to come to him through Mary, to Jesus to God. Could he do whatever he wants? Of course he can he’s God.

But are you really willing to gamble with your Soul? I suggest you make an honest attempt at actually Praying the Rosary and giving it a solid effort. I believe you’ll change your mind

How can anybody ignore Our Blessed Mother, after Jesus said thus: “When Jesus sas his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standihng near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’ Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’ And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.”
We are all disciples and we know that Jesus loves us all. Are we to believe that John then took Mary, the mother of Jesus, and told her to just sit outside and to shut up and that she meant nothing to him? Funny, how most Protestants say that of the last seven words of Jesus, only six of them are to the world, but the one where Jesus gives us his mother, he was just making some simple family arrangements meant for nobody but for Mary to have a place to live out her life and not get in the way of the apostles.

 

[crazzeto]

Moondweller,

do you have any comments, questions or concerns regarding the scriptures I posted which demonstrate a source, other than scripture, which is inspried by God.

 

[jpink1019]

I don’t know what the Jesus prayer is, but, there are traditional Rosaries made up of just the Our Father, the prayer Jesus taught the Apostles.

there is a “traditional rosary”?
I have never heard of this.

 

[anthony022071]

davidmacd.com/catholic/ma…rly_church.htm

One of the oldest catacombs contains a drawing of the Madonna and Child dating back to the second century, and the oldest known request to Mary, the “Sub Tuum Praesidium”, dates back to at least 300 AD!

We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos2;
despise not our petition in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin.

2Means “Godbearer” or Mother of God. This title came into Christian use very early. It simply says that she gave birth to Jesus, who any Christian will agree is God.

There were also feasts in memory of the Assumption of Mary in Antioch dating back to 380 A.D.

We see the genesis of the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and the traditional role of Mary as Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix in the early Church. Here are references to Mary by other early church fathers:

Mary, you are the vessel and tabernacle containing all mysteries. You know what the Patriarchs never knew; you have experienced what was never revealed to the Angels; you have heard what the Prophets never heard. In a word, all that was hidden from preceding generations was made known to you; even more, most of these wonders depended on you. (270 A.D., St. Gregory Thaumaturgus),

Blessed Virgin, immaculate and pure you are the sinless Mother of your Son, the mighty Lord of the universe. You are holy and inviolate, the hope of the hopeless and sinful; we sing your praises. We praise you as full of every grace, for you bore the God-Man. We all venerate you; we invoke you and implore your aid…Holy and immaculate Virgin…be our intercessor and advocate at the hour of death and judgment…you are holy in the sight of God, to Whom be honor and glory, majesty, and power forever (373 AD, St. Ephem of Edessa)

It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him Who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called ‘full of Grace’…" (373 St. Athanasius)

Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent? …accept then such poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by your prayers the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to bring about our peace with God…Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you, feel now your help and protection. …Make it your continual care to pray for the people of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns for ever. (St Augustine in 430 A.D. )

 

[anthony022071]

2 Tim. 3:16 is a stated fact concerning “ALL” (Gr. pas, the whole) of Scripture. Your questions above are non sequitur. They only reveal that you have a problem with what is clearly stated in that verse. Why? Might it conflict with some doctrines you’ve adopted?

You admitted that scripture is not the foundation for all truth.not all truth. So why do you think that scripture must be the foundation for all doctrines of the Church? The scribes who
accused Jesus of wrong-doing and who had him put to death did so because of their strict adherence to scripture,which blinded them.

See post 882.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=461499&page=59

 

[TobyLue]

GreatScot7

I don’t know, maybe it’s because I live in a very Hispanic area, so we’ve got that whole “Virgen de Guadelupe” thing going on, but…perhaps excessive? devotion to Mary is VERY common.

My devotion to Our Lady takes nothing away from Jesus. But just to show you the role Our Lady of Guadalupe has played in my life bear with me as I recount (as short as possible) these events.
When I was growing up, I used to belong to Our Lady of Guadalupe parish near downtown. There just happens to be another church of OLG in a small suburb about 20 miles north of downtown. She was always a part of my life growing up.
Later on in life I formed a Christian Rock band and my friend and I would go to different Catholic Churches talking to youth and getting them interested in Christian Music. It wasn’t until he told me that he noticed that every place we would go there was either a statue or a painting of OLG in the background.
Skip ahead a few more years, after I left the group… I would go to a place that was like a small park by some Oblate Seminary and they have a grotto of Our Lady of Lourdes and on the other side and on top (have to climb some steps to up to the mount) a mosaic of OLG. I would go there at all hours of the day or night and pray for God to send me a woman to marry. I later met this woman working with a youth group and to make a longer story shorter, we started dating and would go often to this place together to pray. I told my Lord that I would like to someday propose to this woman right in front of Our Lady. My brother was head of a prayer group in the small suburb in the Church of OLG and he asked for my help so my then girlfriend and I would go there often. One evening I could hardly wait to leave so I could take her to the “mountain” where OLG was and there I proposed to her. I knew she was going to say yes.
Again fast forward, and we were looking for a church where we could have a small wedding. My sis-in-law suggested we get married at OLG in her small town and we were able to make arrangements. My fiancée’s cousin just happened to be the pastor of OLG downtown and he would go to the suburb and celebrate mass for the Spanish speaking community in the suburb. He agreed to perform the wedding. Hit fast forward again. My wife and I were going to spend our honeymoon in Ixtapa Mexico. We spent a night in Mexico City but we missed our connection flight and had to wait 10 hours for the next plane. We had a chance to go to Mass and communion at the Basilica of OLG in Mexico City. Again fast forward to when we found out my wife was pregnant. We would continue to go pray at the grotto. Our child was not due until January 9, but one morning when my wife went to work (I was at home with a stomach virus) called and said she wasn’t feeling too good and the doctor told her to go see him immediately. I rushed from our house and she want straight to the doctors office from work. She was told she was in labor. After a few hours of labor I realized what day it was. It was Friday December 12, and my son was born on the Feast day of OLG.
We had previously found out that my wife cousin, the priest, was being transferred to another city and would no longer be pastor of OLG downtown. I called him to see if he wanted to see our son who was two weeks old. He asked if we wanted to have him baptized (we had long before my son was born, chosen the godparents) and of course we said yes. So, my son was baptized at OLG Church. Just looking back at all that Our Lady of Guadalupe was involved in my life and its way to much to call it just a coincidence

 

[anthony022071]

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-VI

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed.” Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).

“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379).

“For it is said that he [Gregory the Wonderworker] heard the one who had appeared in womanly form exhorting John the Evangelist to explain to the young man the mystery of the true faith. John, in his turn, declared that he was completely willing to please the Mother of the Lord even in this matter and this was the one thing closest to his heart. And so the discussion coming to a close, and after they had made it quite clear and precise for him, the two disappeared from his sight.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Gregory the WonderWorker (A.D. 380).

“Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?” Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403).

“Give milk, Mother to him who is our food, give milk to the bread coming down from heaven …give milk to him who made you such that he could be made fruitfulness in conception and in birth, did not take from you the ornament of virginity.” Augustine, Sermon 369:1 (A.D. 430).

“Hail to thee Mary, Mother of God, to whom in towns and villages and in island were founded churches of true believers.” Cyril of Alexandria, Homily 11 (ante A.D. 444).

“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory…” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446).

“The Virgin’s festival (parthenike panegyris) incites our tongue today to herald her praise …handmaid and Mother, Virgin and heaven, the only bridge of God to men, the awful loom of the Incarnation, in which by some unspeakable way the garment of that union was woven, whereof the weaver is the Holy Ghost; and the spinner the overshadowing from on high; the wool the ancient fleece of Adam; the woof the undefiled flesh from the virgin, the weaver’s shuttle the immense grace of Him who brought it about; the artificer the Word gliding through the hearing.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

 

[jpink1019]

to summarize, what is “marian” devotion exactly??

 

[moondweller]

Again, if you say “all” applies to the NT how did St Paul know that when he was saying “all” it should apply to the NT since St. Paul didnt have the foggiest notion of the KJV.

Why did Paul have to have foreknowledge of the N.T. Scriptures when he wrote that passage? It was the Holy Spirit who inspired it. Have you not read what Peter wrote regarding the Hebrew O.T. prophets and their writings concerning Christ, grace and salvation that would come?1 Pet 1:10-12 "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that {would come} to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven–things into which angels long to look."Paul didn’t have to know about the formation of the N.T. Scriptures. The Spirit who breathed them did. Those theopneustos Scriptures would benefit the generations of believers that would live after the Apostolic age. Paul was serving us, as did the O.T. prophets. Paul and the other human authors were used to write Scripture, but it was the all knowing (omniscient) Spirit who breathed them into existence to serve His purpose.

 

[moondweller]

You admitted that scripture is not the foundation for all truth.not all truth. So why do you think that scripture must be the foundation for all doctrines of the Church? The scribes who
accused Jesus of wrong-doing and who had him put to death did so because of their strict adherence to scripture,which blinded them.

See post 882.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=461499&page=59

The Scriptures didn’t blind them. They were blind to the Scriptures because of their unbelief. Their “strict adherence” wasn’t to the Scriptures but to their extrabiblical traditions, for which Christ rebuked them. And so they sought to kill him.

 

[Melvin]

One thing occurs to me. It is undeniable that Our Mother is the most beautiful, most exalted of all creatures. Mary is our own mother: she loves us as our own mother, prays for us as our own mother, protects us as our own mother. And, she is deserving of love, respect, and honor, as our own Mother. I believe that she is the Immaculate Conception, saved at the moment of her conception, and that she, unlike Eve, did not after her birth use her free will to sin against God, but rather serve Him.

However, Jesus said that the greatest man ever born of woman was John the Baptist. John the Baptist, in his turn, said of Christ, “He must increase, but I must decrease.”

If Mary is greater than John (and she undoubtedly is) she must be even more devoted to Christ than John, and closer to the heart of the Father and the will of God. How could it then be that the greatest human ever born (Mary) would want us to be devoted to her, in front of, beside of, or instead of to her Son? Would Mary really want us arguing over whether our devotion to her obscures devotion to her Son?

Would Mary not also say, “He must increase, but I must decrease”?

Peace in Christ,

Melvin

 

[Pitcharan]

…However, Jesus said that the greatest man ever born of woman was John the Baptist. John the Baptist, in his turn, said of Christ, “He must increase, but I must decrease.”

If Mary is greater than John (and she undoubtedly is) she must be even more devoted to Christ than John, and closer to the heart of the Father and the will of God. How could it then be that the greatest human ever born (Mary) would want us to be devoted to her, in front of, beside of, or instead of to her Son? Would Mary really want us arguing over whether our devotion to her obscures devotion to her Son?

Would Mary not also say, “He must increase, but I must decrease”?

Peace in Christ,

Melvin

You are comparing a temporal situation of Jesus and John the Baptist while they were on earth with a situation when the glorified St. Mary and Lord Jesus are in heaven. How can you find an answer?

And please know this: expressions like the greatest of all men born of woman, the greatest of all who walked on earth are in Hebrew tradition and not to be taken literally.

 

[phpBroker]

I also wish to reply because the rosary helped me to know Jesus. It is impossible to attend daily mass for all people. What else they can do is, read bible or rosary from home.

Exactly what I did is the choice of rosary. That lead me to daily mass, confession, receiving holly communion daily, starts read bible etc… If you don’t want to know Jesus, you can think like this way… But if you wish to Know Jesus, then the best option is to select Mary as a short cut.

And in all time, Mary told to obey his Son and his words not to follow her or worship her. So she is ONLY a way… On rosary, we are repeating the words, the Gabriel addresses Mary… That means, during rosary, we are saying the words in the BIBLE. All Bible words has its own power and when you repeat the same, it surely strengthens you.

Here is a link to read Mary’s message to the world on these times too:

medjugorje.org/overview.htm

 

[Tomster]

There’s only one place in ALL of Scripture that states that the WHOLE of Scripture is theopneustos (God-breathed), and that’s 2 Tim. 3:16. 2 Pet. 1:20-21 does not use the word theopneustos." Theopneustos only refers to the written Word of God - Scripture. And that would includes both O.T. and N.T. My answer to you has not changed, hence I am not in need of your “charity.”

How did the Jews of Old Testament times know that the Old Testament was “God-breathed” if it wasn’t stated explicitly in the Old Testament?

(hint: T-R-A-D-I-T-I-O-N)

Again, in 2 Peter 1:20, the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter, the first Pope, refers to the nature of inspiration and specifically to the prophecies of the Old Testament: “This, then, you must remember first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is made by private interpretation. For not by will of man was prophecy brought at any time; but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” Hence, the words of the prophets are not the products of their own imaginations, nor may these prophecies be explained by mere human interpretation, but their utterances are from God (i.e., the are of divine origin, unlike yours). In other words, their discourses must attributed to the Holy Spirit as the principle cause.

2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20 f complement each other. The first speaks more clearly of the fact of inspiration, while the latter explains more fully the nature of inspiration.

Sacred Tradition, it’s a beautiful thing!

 

[Tomster]

No. There’s no such thing as baptismal regeneration/salvation.If all you were was baptized with water, then it’s a possibility.The Bible states that salvation is "by grace through faith."Stick with the Bible. But really, stick with the Bible.

You’re wrong again Moon.

The grace of baptism is regeneration John 3:5, which implies Romans 6:3-11, on the one hand, death to sin (original and actual, mortal and venial, with all its penal consequeces), i.e., total separation from from the old Adam; and, on the other, resurrection to a new life accomplished through insertion in Christ, the new Adam, by means of sanctifying grace. Inasmuch as Christ exerts His action by the infusion of grace, He functions as Head, constituting the faithful His own members. Inasmuch as the effect of Christ’s influence is grace, He configures them to His nature, making them His brothers through likeness to Him (Romans 8:29). Now, since Christ is our Head and our older Brother, natural Son of God, in and through Him we become adoptive Sons of the Father, who sends into us His Spirit (“in whom we call: Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15). Sons of God, we have a right to the helps (actual grace), to the food (Eucharist), to the inheritance of the Father (beatific vision) (Cf. Romans 8:17). Finally, being brothers of the First-born of the Father, sons of the same Father, we all form one family, the Church, vivified by the circulation of the same spiritual goods, the COMMUNION OF SAINTS.

All, babies and adults, must in one way or another participate in the Church to be able to enter God’s kingdon (John 3:5; Mark 16:15).

As stated so many times before, your Incarnational theology is wrong and your conceptions of the Church and the Communion of Saints are wrong.

You really should “search the Scriptures” a little closer and quit relying on your false teachers unless you are one of those false teachers in which case you should cease propagating error to an unsuspecting flock.