How does Marian devotion save?

[Melvin]

You are comparing a temporal situation of Jesus and John the Baptist while they were on earth with a situation when the glorified St. Mary and Lord Jesus are in heaven. How can you find an answer?

And please know this: expressions like the greatest of all men born of woman, the greatest of all who walked on earth are in Hebrew tradition and not to be taken literally.

While they were on earth? Christ is eternal, and speaks not only of earthly things, but heavenly, as in “He that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.” (Referring, of course, to John the Baptist.) I would say that the Lord Jesus at that point lays out the eternal perspective, no?

And, (please correct me if I’m wrong) but the dignity of Mary is fully the result of her faithfulness to God during her earthly life, or have I missed more than I think?

Besides, the question really is not whether Christ used a Hebraism, or even whether we are speaking of Christ, Mary, or John the Baptist in time or eternity. The question is one of proper relationship, not only in time, but also in eternity.

So, my question stands, and I am interested in thoughts on that point.

But, thank you, I have learned something new!

The Peace of Christ be with us all.

 

[xvs]

Wow…wait a minute…you’re saying that if Mary said “no” then Jesus would not have become incarnate, suffered, died, rose, and ascended to glory? Mary…a human…had the ability to thwart God’s plan?

Say more, please!

Hi diggerdomer,

Of course “a human” has the ability to thwart God’s plan! Every time we sin we ARE thwarting God’s plan.

 

[xvs]

Marian devotion doesn’t save, the Church is very clear on this, and any book or site that suggests otherwise is doing a grave disservice. The place of Mary, as of any saint in heaven, is always to lead us to God, to pray for us, and to provide us with an example of a holy life.

/QUOTE]

Hi VociMike,

I’m a little disappointed that a Chesterton admirer fails to see the logic of the dogma of Mary as Universal Intercessor of All Graces

Of course, only the Grace of God saves, but if Mary unfailingly leads us to God, isn’t it pretty much the same as saying that “Marian devotion saves”?

Maybe you didn’t mean it this way, but it sounds like for you Mary’s intercession is on equal footing with that of “any saint in heaven”. That’s definitely not true according to Catholic Orthodoxy. No other saint was conceived without original sin. No other saint can claim to be the Mother of God. No other saint has been crowned as “Queen and Lady of All Creation”. And no saint as far as I know didn’t have a profound devotion to our Holy Mother, or at least none of them would have dared to forgo her infallible intercession.

 

[xvs]

And, (please correct me if I’m wrong) but the dignity of Mary is fully the result of her faithfulness to God during her earthly life, or have I missed more than I think?

Hi Melvin, I think you might be missing something. There’s much more to Mary than her faithfulness that causes her dignity. Above all, she is the Mother of God (as has been dogmatically declared very early in the history of the Church). And her divine motherhood does not depend on her faithfulness alone, but also on God’s choosing.

 

[Melvin]

Hi Melvin, I think you might be missing something. There’s much more to Mary than her faithfulness that causes her dignity. Above all, she is the Mother of God (as has been dogmatically declared very early in the history of the Church). And her divine motherhood does not depend on her faithfulness alone, but also on God’s choosing.

I understand…but Mary is the Mother of God, precisely as (I believe you intimated) because she did not thwart God’s plan, but embrace it. I believe that in Catholic teaching the big reason we honor her so much, is that she, by her obedience, undid the knot of Eve’s disobedience. Mary is Mother of God, because, as well as being chosen before all eternity to be so, she gave her fiat. And, in giving that fiat, she brought salvation to humanity.

Thank you for responding, though, and please, if you still think I am missing something, based on this reply, please correct me.

The Peace of Christ be with us all.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Can’t seem to understand how one arrives at this assumption. In the New Testament God specifically chose Mary to come to “us”. And without a doubt he expects us to come to him through Mary, to Jesus to God. Could he do whatever he wants? Of course he can he’s God.

“God” finally said, “Look Dummy, I’m gonna show you the way” And here I stand today. Preaching the very thing which I couldn’t conceive for eternity.

Please look at John 14:5&6 - “Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.:”

Notice that there isn’t even one hint that Mary is being included in what Jesus was saying. Jesus was directing Thomas to Himself, not to Mary. To believe that Mary is the way is “another gospel”. That is serious business - I am referring to Galatians 1. It is worth meditating upon and taking to heart.

 

[crazzeto]

@Fairlady…

on page 63 or so, I think starting on page 62 I posted a challenge to moondweller… At the core is an understanding of 2 Tim 3:16… For convenience I’ll repost it

Which is correct:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

2Ti 3:16 -]All/-] cripture [alone], inspired of God, [and alone] is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

I’ve never really gotten any answer out of moondweller other than “what else could be an inspired source of information”… I answered him with:

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

2 Thess 2

[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

And

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

And of course, what you and I already discussed… Paul coming to the Thessalonians, and them accepting his oral teaching as the word of God.

My questioning is, what response do you have to the clear teaching from the bible that one must maintain Apostolic Tradition, and that indeed it is this Apostolic Tradition which is God Breathed because indeed this Tradition is the very Tradition instituted by the Word of God him self, the Christ Jesus.

 

[crazzeto]

Please look at John 14:5&6 - “Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.:”

Notice that there isn’t even one hint that Mary is being included in what Jesus was saying. Jesus was directing Thomas to Himself, not to Mary. To believe that Mary is the way is “another gospel”. That is serious business - I am referring to Galatians 1. It is worth meditating upon and taking to heart.

Fairlady, I never did see a response… Which do you deny:

The Church is the Body of Christ
Nothing can seperate us from God,
We can act as intercessors for one another

 

[ron77nyc]

@Fairlady…
2 Thess 2

And of course, what you and I already discussed… Paul coming to the Thessalonians, and them accepting his oral teaching as the word of God.

My questioning is, what response do you have to the clear teaching from the bible that one must maintain Apostolic Tradition, and that indeed it is this Apostolic Tradition which is God Breathed because indeed this Tradition is the very Tradition instituted by the Word of God him self, the Christ Jesus.

This was the apostolic tradition in the very beginning of the Church. Why didn’t they stick with it?

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

 

[crazzeto]

This was the apostolic tradition in the very beginning of the Church. Why didn’t they stick with it?

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

You’re not seriously trying to suggest the Apostles ever taught anyone to abandon the oral tradition are you? And do you really think that the verses you cite are able to prove that point? These verses are neither here nor there with regard to defining what exactly, the depostite of faith is.

 

[PRmerger]

What else does Scripture say is theopneustos (God-breathed)?

That, again, is begging the question. It’s circular reasoning.

You’re saying something illogical, uninspired and unrevealing: Scripture is what is* theopneustos*. What is* theopneustos *is what is Scripture.

Here’s the question again: How do you know what’s Scripture?

[SIGN]By the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church![/SIGN]

**We **(the Catholic Church), under the guidance of the HS, have told you that this is inspired, but this isn’t.

There is no other way to know what is theopneustos!

 

[ron77nyc]

You’re not seriously trying to suggest the Apostles ever taught anyone to abandon the oral tradition are you?

No, I’m saying the oral tradition recorded in the epistles was modified by those who came after the apostles. They laid another foundation with Mary, added another step to the Father, and added and eliminated other apostolic traditions.

 

[crazzeto]

No, I’m saying the oral tradition recorded in the epistles was modified by those who came after the apostles.

Are you sure? On what basis do you make this claim sir? Did you imagine, like our protestant brothers and sisters that the Marian devotion is a new innovation? Have you not read this thread? Have you not seen the proof of this devotion dating back to the very first century of Christendom? Have you not considered that all apistolic faiths share a deep Marian devotion?

 

[crazzeto]

Incidently Ron, I would warn you against exactly the kind of behaviour you seem to be undertaking right now. It’s exatly the error our protestant brothers and sisters make. That is, inventing your own theology based upon a verse or two of the bible, with out considering it with in it’s proper place in the whole of scripture, indeed with in the context of Authentic Apistolic tradition.

I ask you this sir, you levey the charge against the Church, that they purposefully modified the Teaching… Sir, have you read the Apistolic record? Have you read the writings of the actual Church fathers in order to know what exactly it is they died for?

I have this feeling, that you indeed would be supprised by the truth.

 

[Tomster]

That, again, is begging the question. It’s circular reasoning.

You’re saying something illogical, uninspired and unrevealing: Scripture is what is* theopneustos*. What is* theopneustos *is what is Scripture.

Here’s the question again: How do you know what’s Scripture?

[SIGN]By the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church![/SIGN]

**We **(the Catholic Church), under the guidance of the HS, have told you that this is inspired, but this isn’t.

There is no other way to know what is theopneustos!

Thank you very much!

 

[moondweller]

I don’t know if anyone on this thread has read “The Glories of Mary” but those who have read it know what it says.

They not only know what it says but they wholeheartedly agree with its extraordinary excesses. When it comes to Mary, nothing is held back. They have made her into a goddess: "All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.’ 2 And then he adds that ’ when the Mother goes to seek a favour for us from Jesus Christ’ (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), ’ her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.’ 3 Jesus is pleased thus to honour His beloved Mother, who honoured Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says : ’ Thou art the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God thou needest no other recommendation; for thou art the Mother of true life.’ 4’At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.'This is the fruit of misguided “devotion.”

 

[Tomster]

They not only know what it says but they wholeheartedly agree with its extraordinary excesses. When it comes to Mary, nothing is held back. They have made her into a goddess: "All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.’ 2 And then he adds that ’ when the Mother goes to seek a favour for us from Jesus Christ’ (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), ’ her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.’ 3 Jesus is pleased thus to honour His beloved Mother, who honoured Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says : ’ Thou art the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God thou needest no other recommendation; for thou art the Mother of true life.’ 4’At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.'This is the fruit of misguided “devotion.”

Moon,

What is misguided is your Bibliolotry.

 

[Tomster]

They not only know what it says but they wholeheartedly agree with its extraordinary excesses. When it comes to Mary, nothing is held back. They have made her into a goddess: "All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.’ 2 And then he adds that ’ when the Mother goes to seek a favour for us from Jesus Christ’ (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), ’ her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.’ 3 Jesus is pleased thus to honour His beloved Mother, who honoured Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says : ’ Thou art the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God thou needest no other recommendation; for thou art the Mother of true life.’ 4’At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.'This is the fruit of misguided “devotion.”

Moon,

So, we Catholics have made Mary a goddess have we.

Methinks you have accepted the teachings (man-made oral traditions) of one L. Boettner?
Or, then again, could you have come under the influence of J. Swaggart? If neither, please inform us as to how you know what you know. And please don’t tell us that you came up with this whopper all by yourself.

 

[Tomster]

Moondweller,

youtube.com/watch?v=r7W97ru024c

This is a must.

 

[Tomster]

He said: "I also believe that ultimately Marian devotion saves! " You say it “could” save. Which is it gentlemen? But where do you find the Apostles preaching devotion to Mary for (possible) salvation? Where do you find Christ sending out His Apostles with the message of devotion to Mary for (the possibility of) salvation? Which Apostles ever devoted themselves to Mary? Did Peter? Did Paul, as Saul, first devote himself to Mary prior to his salvation? How about the Ethiopian eunuch? How about the Philippian jailer? Is there any example of anyone in Scripture devoting themselves to Mary prior to salvation? Is there any example of anyone in Scripture devoting themselves to Mary?

“Is there any example of anyone in Scripture devoting themselves to Mary?” - Moon

Let’s start off with her Son shall we?