How does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ?

[daeve]

Since I did answer the question in my previous post, I hope you will allow me to address the first part of this…

Yes, you can take your requests directly to God, and you should do so as often as you can. But there’s the rub: there are times when you can’t pray. You grow weary and fall asleep, you need to concentrate on something important at work, your beloved Tarheels are playing in the Final Four, or something like that. So, although Paul exhorts us to “pray without ceasing”, the truth is that we never do this.

Saints, on the other hand, do not have the same limitations and weaknesses that we do. They can, and do, pray without ceasing, and they can intercede for you in a way that your Pastor cannot or will not. Additionally, because they are already perfected and in God’s presence, their prayers are more powerful than ours; as scripture says, the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. Obviously, the saints in heaven are more righteous than we are.

Finally, just as Bathsheba held the position of Queen Mother in the court of King Solomon and sat at his right hand, so Mary is the Queen of Heaven seated at the right hand of her son, Jesus. As she interceded at the wedding feast in Cana (John 2), so she intercedes for us, and He will not deny her requests.

Hope this helps.

Randy, that was great. Next time someone accuses me of worshipping the Blessed Virgin, I’ll have something to say.

The only other thing…and I haven’t read all the responses yet so this may be redundant…in response to the comment that Jesus was also Mary’s savior, is that the Blessed Mother was conceived without sin.

 

[Cachonga]

Leopard - please elaborate. You can look at post #15 and see how I answered 3 of the dogmas. I don’t even see Christ in these dogmas! How will these beliefs affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ?

 

[Cachonga]

Daeve – I have already given my opinion on the Immaculate Conception (see post #15).

BTW - did you know Mary made a sin offering?

 

[daeve]

You said God have made Mary without sin at the time of conception. He could also have made her without sin from the start.

This discussion is really over my head. Even if I have the thought in my head, I can’t always get it out. Take a look at yesterday’s Gospel, and you’ll see what it has to say about who is dead and who isn’t. Dead and not living are not always the same thing. Mary and the Saints have eternal life, so we’re not praying to dead people, but people who are now living with God.

 

[Leopard]

…BTW - did you know Mary made a sin offering?

It does not necessarily follow that because a person has made an offering for sin, that that person actually committed some sin related to that offering. Christ offered the greatest sin offering ever made on His Cross. But this does not mean Christ sinned.

 

[Cachonga]

daeve – I appreciate your effort. When I say “dead saint”, I am referring to their physical body. It’s easy (relatively) to talk to a living saint, but how loud do you have to talk to be heard by a saint that is no longer living on earth? Yes, they are alive, but they’re not living on earth! If you wanted to ask me to pray for you, there are a lot of ways to do that – face to face, phone, email, IM, telegram, snail mail, just to name the main ways. But, what if I was out of town, in an area with no cell phone/internet service? How could you get in touch with me? Maybe stick your head out the window and yell really loud! Basically, unless I was going to be there for a while, and you knew the address, you couldn’t get in touch with me (notice, I’m still on earth). When you pray to a saint, how can you know that they even hear you? If you were to contact me, I could respond and you would know I got the message. How can you be sure a saint in Heaven hears you? This is off topic, but I hope this helps.

 

[Leopard]

…but how loud do you have to talk to be heard by a saint that is no longer living on earth?..

About as loud as you have to talk to be heard by God, since it is God who enables them to hear us.

 

[Cachonga]

Leopard – first of all, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:21). Clearly Jesus was without sin, but he became sin for our sake on the cross (BTW – those sins are still nailed to the cross). Secondly (I know, I’m not taking these in your order. My bad!), when a person made a sin offering under the old covenant (as Mary would have), they place their hands on the offering and confess their sin (even if it’s for unknown sin). I submit that Mary was either a sinner before the offering, or because of the offering (if she was sinless, and confessed she had sinned, wouldn’t that be bearing false witness against herself?). In regard to how loud do you have to talk to be heard, what is the scriptural basis for your answer? Never mind! This is not a discussion on prayers to the saints! Please stay on topic!

 

[jmcrae]

Daeve – I have already given my opinion on the Immaculate Conception (see post #15).

BTW - did you know Mary made a sin offering?

No, she didn’t. It was a purity offering, for the blood and other body fluids spilled during childbirth. But the involuntary spillage of body fluids during childbirth is not a sin against the moral law - it is simply an undesirable result of a natural function of the body.

She committed no moral fault (no sin) in giving birth to Jesus Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

So are the Orthodox - who do not accept the dogma of the Immaculate Conception - totally severed from a relationship with Christ? If you say yes, does the Catholic Church say, officially, that they are totally severed from a relationship with Christ?

They actually do accept the Immaculate Conception - but they do not believe in Original Sin - they believe that all of us are Immaculate Conceptions - not just Mary. So, when we say, “Mary was Immaculately conceived,” they reply, “So what? So was I.”

The Orthodox are in schism from the Church - how that affects them depends on their individual level of culpability, the same as Protestants, or any other religion.

 

[Leopard]

…when a person made a sin offering under the old covenant (as Mary would have), they place their hands on the offering and confess their sin (even if it’s for unknown sin). I submit that Mary was either a sinner before the offering, or because of the offering (if she was sinless, and confessed she had sinned, wouldn’t that be bearing false witness against herself?)…

The offering that Mary made after Jesus’ birth had to do with ritual impurity associated with childbirth and the redemption of a firstborn son, not personal sin:

22 8 When the days were completed for their purification 9 according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord,
23 just as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord,”
24 and to offer the sacrifice of “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons,” in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord. Luke 2:22-24

There are two footnotes in the NAB concerning this passage:

8 [22-40] The presentation of Jesus in the temple depicts the parents of Jesus as devout Jews, faithful observers of the law of the Lord (Luke 2:23-24, 39), i.e., the law of Moses. In this respect, they are described in a fashion similar to the parents of John (Luke 1:6) and Simeon (Luke 2:25) and Anna (Luke 2:36-37).

9 [2] Their purification: syntactically, their must refer to Mary and Joseph, even though the Mosaic law never mentions the purification of the husband. Recognizing the problem, some Western scribes have altered the text to read “his purification,” understanding the presentation of Jesus in the temple as a form of purification; the Vulgate version has a Latin form that could be either “his” or “her.” According to the Mosaic law (Lev 12:2-8), the woman who gives birth to a boy is unable for forty days to touch anything sacred or to enter the temple area by reason of her legal impurity. At the end of this period she is required to offer a year-old lamb as a burnt offering and a turtledove or young pigeon as an expiation of sin. The woman who could not afford a lamb offered instead two turtledoves or two young pigeons, as Mary does here. They took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord: as the firstborn son (Luke 2:7) Jesus was consecrated to the Lord as the law required (Exodus 13:2, 12), but there was no requirement that this be done at the temple. The concept of a presentation at the temple is probably derived from 1 Sam 1:24-28, where Hannah offers the child Samuel for sanctuary services. The law further stipulated (Numbers 3:47-48) that the firstborn son should be redeemed by the parents through their payment of five shekels to a member of a priestly family. About this legal requirement Luke is silent.

…In regard to how loud do you have to talk to be heard, what is the scriptural basis for your answer? Never mind! This is not a discussion on prayers to the saints! Please stay on topic!

I was answering your question.

 

[daeve]

daeve – I appreciate your effort. When I say “dead saint”, I am referring to their physical body. It’s easy (relatively) to talk to a living saint, but how loud do you have to talk to be heard by a saint that is no longer living on earth? Yes, they are alive, but they’re not living on earth! If you wanted to ask me to pray for you, there are a lot of ways to do that – face to face, phone, email, IM, telegram, snail mail, just to name the main ways. But, what if I was out of town, in an area with no cell phone/internet service? How could you get in touch with me? Maybe stick your head out the window and yell really loud! Basically, unless I was going to be there for a while, and you knew the address, you couldn’t get in touch with me (notice, I’m still on earth). When you pray to a saint, how can you know that they even hear you? If you were to contact me, I could respond and you would know I got the message. How can you be sure a saint in Heaven hears you? This is off topic, but I hope this helps.

The physical body is a shell, a conveyance for the soul. I don’t need to physically contact someone who’s in heaven. How do you contact Jesus? I believe in eternal life – with or without body – because that’s what Our Lord promised to those who follow Him.

What’s a living saint? A saint is in heaven, not a person on earth.

I don’t mean this to be snotty sounding, but I didn’t really need any help. There’s nothing you can say to convince me that I can’t or shouldn’t pray to the Blessed Mother, to St. Monica, to St. Anthony or St. Jude. There’s nothing to convince me that any of the Marian doctrines aren’t 100% right, because I believe in the validity and wisdom of the Catholic church.

One of the things I especially like about Catholicism…there are learned and wise people who have studied everything I can’t and I can trust them to know what’s what. There are authoritative answers to every question, even if sometimes the answer isn’t the one I wanted to hear.

 

[Cachonga]

Jmcrae – “And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” Luke 2:24. Compare to “And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the Lord, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This [is] the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.” Lev 12:6-8. Notice, one was a burnt offering, the other was a sin offering.

Leopard – see above. (BTW – you’re right, I shouldn’t have jumped on you for answering my question. Sorry!)

daeve – no need to comment on this, since it’s not on topic. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[FCEGM]

daeve – I appreciate your effort. When I say “dead saint”, I am referring to their physical body. It’s easy (relatively) to talk to a living saint, but how loud do you have to talk to be heard by a saint that is no longer living on earth? Yes, they are alive, but they’re not living on earth! If you wanted to ask me to pray for you, there are a lot of ways to do that – face to face, phone, email, IM, telegram, snail mail, just to name the main ways. But, what if I was out of town, in an area with no cell phone/internet service? How could you get in touch with me? Maybe stick your head out the window and yell really loud! Basically, unless I was going to be there for a while, and you knew the address, you couldn’t get in touch with me (notice, I’m still on earth). When you pray to a saint, how can you know that they even hear you? If you were to contact me, I could respond and you would know I got the message. How can you be sure a saint in Heaven hears you? This is off topic, but I hope this helps.

We can be sure because Christ assures us so through His Body, His Church. In the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are more - not less - in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen, since God is All in all. This is not difficult for God to do. Indeed, a Christianity that does not admit of this intimate communion among members of the one body is very two-dimensional.

Further, if the Saints who are now fully incorporated into Christ in the Beatific Vision cannot intercede for those of us who yet walk by faith then Christ has no power; for what power they (and we) have is His power in which they participate by virtue of their incorporation into His Body; they, if counted among the blessed, will not be allowed, then, “to share my throne,” Rev. 4:21. Then, St. Stephen, “filled with grace and power” withstanding the Sanhedrin, was divested of that power upon his martyrdom; then St. Peter and St. Paul, who cured people of their spiritual blindness and physical illnesses by virtue of the power of the Lord, lost their power in Christ upon their martyrdoms.

It is a very small Jesus that doesn’t permit incorporating Mary into one’s life as a Christian; the greater Jesus is in one’s understanding, the greater the room for meeting His Mother and His Friends in His Presence.

 

[Leopard]

Jmcrae – “And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” Luke 2:24. Compare to “And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the Lord, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This [is] the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.” Lev 12:6-8. Notice, one was a burnt offering, the other was a sin offering.

Leopard – see above…

Well, I can’t say what the exact details of Mary’s purification offering were because I wasn’t personally present. Neither were you. So all we have to judge this is Luke’s report. The necessary question then becomes: is it here Luke’s intention to say that Mary sinned? The Catholic Church, which compiled the New Testament and has the authority to interpret her own Scriptures, answers this question in the negative.

I don’t know exactly how the sin offering component of the purification ritual should be understood with reference to Mary. My best guess is that the ritual impurity associated with childbirth was generally associated with actual sin at the time even though we know this is not true in Mary’s specific case. My opinion here is not authoritative, but this does not matter, because the Church is. We can be confident that Mary, in keeping the Law by making a sin offering that was not strictly necessary for her to make for reasons of personal sin, would not have committed any sin by doing so since she was doing so in the first place out of obedience to God whose Law this was.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Think of it this way:

You, as a member of the Body of Christ, are, in a spiritual sense, married to Jesus, since He is the Bridegroom.

In a human marriage, the relationship between spouses can suffer when the husband or wife is merely polite to his/her in-laws. Because if you love your parents, surely you’d want your spouse to love your parents, and surely you’d want your spouse to believe the truth about your parents. How would you feel if your wife/husband said, “Honey, I respect your mom. But I don’t really want anything to do with her” ?

How much does Jesus love His Mother? Wouldn’t it follow, then, that He wants you to love His Mother and know the truth about her, too?

Love is Patient

 

[LilyM]

Daeve – I have already given my opinion on the Immaculate Conception (see post #15).

BTW - did you know Mary made a sin offering?

Cachonga - do you know Christ was circumcised? And that He was baptised - baptised ‘with water, for repentance from sins’. John said this was the purpose of his baptism. John knew He had no need for baptism - he said ‘Lord you want me to baptise You? I should be baptised by You instead!’

So why do either of these things, if HE had no sin to be cleansed by baptism and, being God, no need to enter into the Abrahamic covenant which circumcision symbolised? As He said, such things are ‘fitting for all righteousness’ - in other words, most likely, they were done to set an example for US.

So with Mary’s purification. Her behaviour too is an example to us. Doesn’t have anything to do with her personally being sinful, any more than Christ’s baptism had to do with any personal sin of his.

 

[Mark77]

It is impossible to be a “former roman catholic” that is like saying you are a “former human being”.

You were baptized into the Body of Jesus Christ, His Catholic Church.

You are a “doubting Roman Catholic”, which is fine. We all have doubts, even the Saints doubted, but they were not arrogant, they trusted in Jesus to lead them to the fullness of all Truth.

Don’t let your questions, your shortcomings, your inability to accept the fact that Jesus loves his Mother Mary more completely than anyone else that has ever lived, cause you to reject His Catholic Church. Because He chose her before time existed, to be His One and Only Mother, because He chose her to be the only human being in history to share His entire life from birth to death to Resurrection, because He chose her to be His first Disciple, to initiate His first miracle (CANA), because He chose her to be with Him through His Passion, Crucifixion, Death and Resurrection, I would not question His Mother Mary’s importance to Him.

Jesus is now and has always been the primary focus of our worship as Catholic Christians.

When I die and stand before Jesus at my Final Judgment, I would not want to answer Him when He asks me why I did not respect His Blessed Mother and why I rejected the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that Jesus left us to guide us to His Truth.

Do not listen to Satan’s lies and reject the Truth that Jesus gave to us for ouer Salvation!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark

 

[PJM]

=Cachonga;5011112]I’ve been involved in a thread that has gotten very large and not entirely on topic. I’ve noticed some diversity among the different responses (Catholic and non-Catholic alike). I thought I might start a new thread with a topic that could go just as wild, but I am truly interested in the responses that this will generate. I am a Bible-Believing, Born Again Christian. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and, in fact, have received 6 of the 7 sacraments (never considered being a priest). However, I left the Catholic Church years ago (primarily because I found contradictions between the Bible and church teachings). I want to know – as a Christian, how does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ? I look forward to your responses!

Friend,

From your perspective it has no visible effect at all.

Your reason for leaving the only Church founded by Jesus seems vague. I’m intrigued to ask what specific differences made you fall of the cliff so to speak.

Over the years I have heard many reasons for leaving the RCC, but your’s is unique.

I would say also in regards to your OP, that even for Catholics, not taking advantage of who and what our BVM is not by itself sinful, and not necessary for ones salvation, so long as one does not deny the RCC Teachings is reguards to her.

The pious practive of ones faith is still personal choice.Yet there are many good reasons for doing what we do.

The fact that you received “six of the possible Seven Sacraments”, suggest to me that it is highly probable that you did not have a good and proper understanding of what you received.

One who does know, does inderstand, could NEVER, NEVER just walk away from the God that Created them.

We (with a bit of help from outside) can convience ourself of any preconceived notion we choose to. Even Adam and Eve fell for a “good story.”

So dear friend, I’m an informed Practicing Roman Catholic who is very comfortable with the bible, which as we both know is a Catholic Book. Sahre with me please, why is is that you abandoned Jesus Christ.

As for “the diversity” with over a BILLION Catholics, yea, your going to find some different views. Heck 52% voted for President Oboma, the Pro-choice candidate.

Love and prayers friend,

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Mark77:

It is impossible to be a “former roman catholic” that is like saying you are a “former human being”.

You were baptized into the Body of Jesus Christ, His Catholic Church.

You are a “doubting Roman Catholic”, which is fine. We all have doubts, even the Saints doubted, but they were not arrogant, they trusted in Jesus to lead them to the fullness of all Truth.

Was Martin Luther a “doubting Roman Catholic?” Don’t sugar coat apostasy or consider it impossible for Catholics to abandon their Faith. It’s a grave and solemn desertion full to overflowing with deadly consequences.