How does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ?

[Randy_Carson]

Randy Carson – 1. if it doesn’t affect my relationship in terms of salvation, why is there an anathema for not believing them? 2. If Jesus is offended, then that would affect my relationship with him, wouldn’t it? No doubt, Jesus loves Mary. Jesus, as man, may place Mary above others, but Jesus as God, wouldn’t He love us all the same? Also, when I look at something like Matt 12:46-50 or Mark 3:31-35, I see Jesus making all believers equal. 3. What Christological truth do these dogmas protect? Maybe another question would be – If these are truths that protect Christological truths, what protected those Christological truths for the 1900+ years the Church was without them?

I cannot say what was in the minds of those who attached the anathema regarding why they did so; I would only be speculating. If that’s okay, then I will speculate that the anathemas were attached in order to add some “bite” to the declaration, and the declarations were made in order to put an end to heretical movements. For example, Mary was declared to be the Mother of God in response to Nestorianism which was an attack on the Incarnation.

God loves us all the same, but that does not mean that He rewards us all the same. (cf. 1 Cor. 3)

Randy Carson – I really don’t want to get into prayers to saints. However, in regard to your analogy of Bathsheba being a type of Mary – when Bathsheba came into Solomon’s presence, he bowed before her. Do you think Jesus bows to Mary when comes before Him? Also, Bathsheba didn’t get her request. Why? Simple – once she made her request, Solomon realized 2 things; first, she was asking on behalf of someone else. Second, the request would have undermined his kingdom. At that point, Solomon had to cease being her son, and act as King, executing a just punishment. Now, if Mary could take your request to Jesus, how do you suppose it would measure up?

None of my requests may measure up. Come to think of it…that explains a lot!

However, no Catholic would claim that every prayer request is answered the way we want, but that is not the point. Israel had a king and the king had a queen; however, the queen was not his wife but his mother. Jesus is the king of Israel, and He, too, has a queen. Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Does Jesus show respect to His mother by bowing before her? We’ll find out one day.

The Catholic Church got along without any Marian dogma for over 1900 years. Why is it that anyone who lived before they were defined are OK, even if they didn’t believe it, and I’m under an anathema?

This is incorrect.

Mother of God - 431 A.D.
Perpetual Virginity - 553 A.D.
Immaculate Conception - 1854 A.D.
Assumption of Mary - 1950 A.D.

The people who lived before these dates were not obligated to believe these dogmas because they had not been defined. Afterward, all Catholics were obliged to believe them as divine revelation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Leopard – Even if that is true, I still reject the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virgin and Bodily Assumption (rest assured, I will reject the 5th dogma if and when it is ever promulgated). How does this affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ?

Isn’t this another way of saying, “Sorry, Lord. I know better than you what I do and do not need to know for my salvation. Thanks for the ‘revelation’, but I’m good.”

And if you simply reject these dogmas out of hand because you do not understand them or cannot accept them, how are you any different than the Jews who declared, “This is a hard saying; who can accept it?” (John 6:60)

No, you can’t simply blow off ANY portion of the Word of God - whether it is contained in Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition for these spring from a single source of truth.

Instead, you must study to show yourself approved.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, that was great. Next time someone accuses me of worshipping the Blessed Virgin, I’ll have something to say.

The only other thing…and I haven’t read all the responses yet so this may be redundant…in response to the comment that Jesus was also Mary’s savior, is that the Blessed Mother was conceived without sin.

I can save my friend after he has fallen into a pit by pulling him out, or I can save him before he falls into the pit by blocking his misstep.

By a singular privilege, God saved Mary before she was stained by original sin. Thus, she was conceived without sin and remained without actual sin throughout her entire life.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Immaculate Conception – I have looked in several Bible versions and checked many lexicons in the original Greek, and nowhere do I find “Full of grace” being equal to “preserved from sin from the moment of conception”. If Mary HAD to be sinless to be the mother of Jesus, God could have cleansed her when the angel came in and greeted her, couldn’t He? Of course! Mary did not have to be born sinless, even if it was a requirement for being the mother of the Son of God.

Sure, God COULD have cleansed her when the angel appeared. But God COULD and DID choose to do it another way - the Immaculate Conception.

Why does this bother you?

Do you have any proof that God did not preserve Mary from the stain of original sin at the time of her conception?

So far, all you seem to have done it to point out that God could do whatever He wanted, and since that is true, what basis do you have for denying this dogma other than your own distate for it?

 

[Marian_Devotee]

When Our Lady appeared to the children in Fatima, she told Lucia this:

On June 13, 1929 Lucia saw Mary holding Her Immaculate Heart with swords piercing it.

"There are so many souls whom the Justice of God condemns for sins committed against me, that I have come to ask reparation. Sacrifice yourself for this intention and pray."

source: fivefirstsaturdays.com/

 

[Randy_Carson]

daeve – I appreciate your effort. When I say “dead saint”, I am referring to their physical body. It’s easy (relatively) to talk to a living saint, but how loud do you have to talk to be heard by a saint that is no longer living on earth? Yes, they are alive, but they’re not living on earth! If you wanted to ask me to pray for you, there are a lot of ways to do that – face to face, phone, email, IM, telegram, snail mail, just to name the main ways. But, what if I was out of town, in an area with no cell phone/internet service? How could you get in touch with me? Maybe stick your head out the window and yell really loud! Basically, unless I was going to be there for a while, and you knew the address, you couldn’t get in touch with me (notice, I’m still on earth). When you pray to a saint, how can you know that they even hear you? If you were to contact me, I could respond and you would know I got the message. How can you be sure a saint in Heaven hears you? This is off topic, but I hope this helps.

The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture

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1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament**

**
“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though.

4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example

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“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)****

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5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation**

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“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jmcrae – “And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” Luke 2:24. Compare to “And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the Lord, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This [is] the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.” Lev 12:6-8. Notice, one was a burnt offering, the other was a sin offering.

So, is it your contention that Mary (and every other woman who ever bore a son) sinned by bearing a son and thus needed to make a sin offering?

Since Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit, does this mean that He caused her to sin?

What happened If a woman died in childbirth and had no opportunity to make this “sin offering”?

 

[PJM]

=Leopard;5016663]

I wonder why you would consider a Jewish rabbi to necessarily be a better authority in this matter than the Church? He is no less distantly historically removed from the first century than Catholic theologians and Scriptural scholars today, and there is no logical basis to assume that Catholic scholars have made less of a study of Mosaic Law than he.

Let me began frind by addressing the very specific question of your post.

If you are and intend to practice the Catholic Faith, you could be in Grave Moral danger. You would be well advised to discuss questions with you’re Confessor-priest at the earliest possible time. Unless you’re post is “retorical” in nature?

Secondly any true Rabbi cannot Objectively recount the stories or dogma’s of Catholic Marian Theology, simply because they do NOT accept Jesus "as the Son of God’, nor do they therefore accept Mary as “the Mother of God.” Indeed they deny a great deal of the New Testament, because to not do so, would affirm, even condem them of having actually missed the long awaited Messiah!

We do know that the Hebrew/Aramaic terms for brother were used to indicate relationships other than children having one or both parents in common. There are also traditions (which while they are not official Catholic teaching, Catholics are free to consider) that St. Joseph, before he married Mary, may have been a widower with children who may have been socially identified as brothers and/or sisters of Jesus in a sense closer to that in which we use the word today.

We agree on this statement.

That’s not quite it. It would be more correct to say that I accept the teaching authority of the Church, and if my personal interpretation of the Bible conflicts with this, then my interpretation is in error and needs to be corrected.

You, on the other hand, accept your personal interpretation of the Bible as authoritative, and if the Church’s teaching conflicts with this, then you consider the Church to be in error and in need of correction. It is a major difference in viewpoint and I can understand why one who holds it would not want to identify themselves as Catholic. It is an honest decision and I respect that. But you have not burned your bridges behind you. someday you may reconsider your views and your decision. When you are ready, you will be welcomed back.

Darn good advice friend. If the bible “is the word of God, and it is!” then you must accept all of it or none of it! Might I suggest you reread Mt.16:19, say an prayer and then read Mt. 16:18-20. Those my friend are God’s words not ours and, not simply those of God’s only founded Church.

Love and prayers friend,

 

[Randy_Carson]

Leopard – I got my interpretation on this in part from a Rabbi who knows what the Mosaic Law required and how it was carried out, as well as from Scripture itself. The Church claims the authority to interpret Scripture, but what about the inconsistencies? Why is it that when the Bible talks clearly about the brothers and sisters of Jesus, the Church WON’T tell us who they are, but WILL insist that they are NOT actual brothers and sisters. I guess, what it comes down to is this – you will adhere to the authority of the Church regardless of the evidence, while I prefer to go with the evidence of Scripture, even when it conflicts with the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. This is why I left the Catholic Church, and I doubt I will ever come back.

There is no evidence from the scriptures that Mary had any other children besides Jesus. Your reading of the scriptures in English detracts from your ability to understand what the original text actual said.

The key to explaining references such as Matthew 13:55 is understanding the Greek word for “brethren” (adelphoi) and its feminine counterpart (adelphe). If the Greek words used in this passage connote only siblings, then the Catholic dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity is false.

However, the word adelphoi has a much broader meaning. It may refer to male relatives that one is not a descendant of and that are not descendant from one (such as a blood brother, step-brother, nephew, uncle, cousin, etc.) or non-relatives such as neighbors, fellow workers, co-religionists, and friends.

Because of this broad usage, we can be sure that the 120 “brothers” in Acts 1:15 did not have the same mother. Neither did Lot and his uncle Abraham, who were called “brothers” (Gen. 11:26-28, 29:15).

The reason relatives were called brothers or sisters was because in Hebrew, there was no word for cousin, nephew, or uncle. So the person was referred to as simply a “brother.” Linguistically, this was far easier than calling the person the son of a mother’s sister. Since the New Testament was written in a dialect of Greek that was heavily influenced by the Semitic culture, many of the Hebrew idioms (like “brother” having multiple meanings) intrude into the Greek text. So, the fact that Jesus had adelphoi does not mean that Mary had other children.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Leopard - sorry, I forgot to add this bit. The idea that Joseph had other children from a previous mariage causes all kinds of problems. Joseph was in line for the throne of David, and therefore, his first-born son would be the next in line. If Jesus was not counted as Joseph’s first-born, then He would have no legitimate claim to the throne of David. I know there have been exceptions to the first-born son taking the throne, beginning with Solomon. However, it was necessary for Jesus to be the first-born of Joseph to give Him a legitimate claim that could not be disputed. I would also point out that the source of this idea (along with Mary’s perpetual virginity) comes from gnostic writings, not Scripture or Tradition. (I may get an argument about the Tradition. Fine! Just back up any argument to the contrary with something better than “the Church says so”.)

Was David the first-born of Jesse?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Notice, they performed ALL things according to the LAW of the Lord. The evidence still shows Mary made a sin offering!

Q: At the Presentation, why did Mary make a sin offering (Luke2:24, Lev. 12:8) if she was without sin?

A: For the same reason Jesus was baptized by John, though he had no sins to repent of. Mary fulfilled the Law.

According to Leviticus 12:2-8, a mother was purified forty days after the birth of a son, and she was required to offer a lamb as a burnt offering and a young pigeon or turtledove as a sin offering. A poor woman could substitute another pigeon or turtledove for the lamb, thus offering two of them.

The purification had to do with ritual uncleanliness and didn’t imply a moral fault in childbirth. As Jesus would later, Mary fulfilled all the precepts of the Law, which, clearly, wasn’t written to make allowances for a sinless man (the Messiah) or his sinless mother.

This nagging objection is ably handled here:

holytrinityparish.net/Links/The%20Purification%20of%20Mary%20and%20the%20Immaculate%20Conception.doc

 

[PJM]

{QUOTE]Originally Posted by Cachonga
Leopard – I got my interpretation on this in part from a Rabbi who knows what the Mosaic Law required and how it was carried out, as well as from Scripture itself. The Church claims the authority to interpret Scripture, but what about the inconsistencies? Why is it that when the Bible talks clearly about the brothers and sisters of Jesus, the Church WON’T tell us who they are, but WILL insist that they are NOT actual brothers and sisters. I guess, what it comes down to is this – you will adhere to the authority of the Church regardless of the evidence, while I prefer to go with the evidence of Scripture, even when it conflicts with the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. This is why I left the Catholic Church, and I doubt I will ever come back.

My dear freind in Christ,

Some advice from an older informed, practicing Roman Catholic

First, take to heart what randy is sharing with you. It’s truth and easy to comprehend.

Second, do you believe that two wrongs = a right?

You clearly do not understand the bible, and allowed your evident lack of understanding to
“justify” leaving the only Church founded by Christ Himself.

17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Friend, here is something else to ponder.

Either EVERYTHING in the bible is true (I’m not saying “factual”) or Nothing in the bible is TRUE!

Friend, you may wish to reconsider your position if you believe in the existance of heaven and Hell?

Love and prayers, Pat

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Cachonga:

AmbroseSJ – John 1:1 (“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. “), John 10:30 (“I and my Father are one.”), 1 John 5:7 (“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”), just to name 3. Next, look at John 14:26 (“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”), Acts 10:38 (“How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”), John 16:7 (“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”). You are correct that the word Trinity does not appear. However, MT 28:19 reads, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” Sounds Trinitarian to me. And let’s not forget the baptism of Jesus (Matt 3:16-17, Mark 1:10-11, and Luke 3:21-22) where we see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together. The early church may not have used the term Trinity, but they sure lived it!

Yes, it’s very easy to see the Trinity in these passages, since that Church Doctrine has been so well defined for so many centuries now. But that Doctrine was painfully hammered out over a period of centuries, (History is factual) for the VERY REASON that the Doctrine was NOT self evident in the Scriptures.

The Church HAS ALWAYS TAUGHT THE DOCTRINE of the Trinity, But Scripture only “experts” forced the Church to painstakingly articulate and define this doctrine, so that YOU all these centuries later could easily find it in Scripture. You are just not able to put yourself out of the context of Church Doctrine ENOUGH, to see that Scripture alone SIMPLY DOES NOT teach the Trinity. It makes only passing references, and they can be easily interpreted a number of alternate ways, by Scripture only experts.

 

[BRB1]

how does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ? !

You don’t accept she was ‘ever virgin’ … What is your evidence to contrary ?

 

[Cachonga]

maryrev12 – it was in seeking God’s perfect will for my life that I believe God brought me out of the Catholic Church. I believe Mary was the Mother of Jesus, the Son of God (and He is fully God and fully man). I believe she is blessed throughout all generations. I believe she is a model of faith, humility and virtue. I also believe she was just as human as anyone else, and I believe the Bible makes it clear she had other children (she was certainly engaged BEFORE the angel came to her). Am I ignorant because I question the teaching of the Church? 1 John 4:1 says, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” In light of scripture, how can I not question the Church teachings? Even Paul said, “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:6-9). Virginity is not bad. I am well over 45 years of age, and I can count the number of people I’ve had sex with in my entire life on one finger – and that is my wife (and we didn’t even meet until after I was 30). Virginity is good, however, perpetual virgins do not marry. Do you think that married couples have sex because of lust? And where did contraception and birth control come from? Of course they didn’t use it! If they did, where would James, Joseph, Simon, Judas, and at least 2 daughters come from? You seem to be dragging in straw men into this discussion. Do you think we can’t read and understand the original languages in which the scriptures were written? And who do you think the author of Scripture is? As Paul says, “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Tim 3:16). The Scriptures are God-breathed (theopneustos). God is the author of Scripture (Old and New Testament). It was through prayer and fasting and seeking God that I came out of the Roman Catholic Church.

Randy Carson – Mary is alive and in HEAVEN. What is her phone #? Do you have a private line to her? I’ve addressed this already, but let’s think about this – if I wanted to ask you to pray for me, there are several ways I could do it (face to face, phone, fax, email, text message, etc…). You would also be able to respond and let me know you got the message and will or won’t pray for me. What if I find myself stranded in a place with no GPS, no cell phone service, no internet service, and I desperately wanted to ask you to pray for me? (BTW – there are places that fit this description, and I have been through some of them.) I couldn’t ask you because there is no means of open communication. Other than the assurance of the Church, how do you know Mary hears your pray? What feedback do you get from her? And how do you know it’s her and not some demon pretending to be her? The anathema has never been rescinded from these dogmas, so the reason doesn’t seem to mean a lot. Back to the Queen Mother – if Mary is the Queen of Heaven, how can she be a member of the Body (or Bride) of Christ? I also find it interesting that there is no mention in Scripture of any “Queen of Heaven” (outside of a pagan deity found in Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19, and 44:25). Did Jesus bow to His mother? We don’t have a record of it in Scripture (in fact, Matt 12:46-49 and Mark 3:31-35 show an opportunity to have done just that, but Jesus didn’t), and I seriously doubt the Creator of all things would bow to anything He created. I stand corrected on the exact dates for these dogmas. Still, in light of the fact that even the first dogma didn’t appear until the 5th century, and that primarily to counter the Nestorian Heresy, doesn’t this indicate that the Church has changed, but God changes not (Mal 3:6). And you say we are “obliged to believe them as divine revelation.”? I thought revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle. I reject the Marian dogmas because I find no basis for them in Scripture. If the “Sacred Tradition” leads to something that contradicts Sacred Scripture, then I suggest there is something wrong with your “Sacred Tradition”. Nobody has yet explained to me how “Full of Grace” means “Immaculate Conception”, or even what Christological truths they are supposed to protect (I understand the “Mother of God” was to combat the Nestorians, but what about the other 3 dogmas?). The thing is, I believe that since Scripture IS the Word of God (many Catholics agree this is true, though they also include “Sacred Tradition” as God’s word), that I can find out what I need for salvation by digging into it. I find multiple examples of people being saved, but not a single example of ANY of the Marian dogmas. I can stand before God and say, “I followed what was written in Your Book”. Something to think about – what would carry more weight in a court of law, a signed, notarized, written document, or the single testimony of an individual? (If we want a little more clarification, the individual is known to have used forged documents and deceptive means in the past.) We have the Bible (the written, signed and notarized Word of God), vs the “Sacred Traditions” as defined and interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church (which used things like the Donations of Constantine and the False Decretals for it’s own purposes). Again, you’re begging the question in regard to Mary’s sinlessness. The ONLY Scriptural reference I’ve seen for this idea is Luke 1:28, which was the GREETING of the Angel (Hail, Full of Grace). Prove that “Full of Grace” means what your Church REQUIRES it to mean!
(continued…)

 

[Cachonga]

Randy Carson – yes, God can do what He wants. However, anytime He does something out of the “norm” we usually have it mentioned clearly in Scripture. Just to point out a few examples – Isaac’s miraculous birth, the announcement of the birth if Samson, the birth of Samuel and God’s reward to his mother, the forgiving of David for his adultery and murder (both sins required the death penalty), holding the sun still for Joshua, the miraculous birth of John the Baptist, and the miraculous conception and birth of Jesus. Scripture makes it clear why these things happened, but there is no mention in scripture of Mary as anything other than a normal woman (albeit, very blessed). She is a model of humility, faithfulness and virtue, but she was also engaged before the angel came along, and she made a sin offering after the birth of Jesus (and probably many more, according to Mosaic Law). I do not believe that a sinless woman could make a sin offering without sinning in the process. I would also suggest that, since it is our normal condition to be born in sin, then the burden of proof is on you to show that Mary was an exception.

Marian Devotee – “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” (2 Cor 11:14-15) How does a vision of Mary holding her heart pierce with 2 swords and complaining about “sins committed against me” point to Jesus? And where in Scripture do we see a saint who has passed on come back to give a message to anyone? (I bet Joseph Smith could help you answer this one.)

Randy Carson – 1. Jesus shows that the Saints in Heaven are alive. Where does He show they can hear you? 2. This is a true story, not a parable (Jesus used a proper name, Lazarus. It would be similar to someone today saying something like, “There was a certain public official who had gained a high position; and a certain intern named Monica…”) Also notice, the rich man was not calling to Abraham from his life on Earth, but where he was in Hell. Also notice, he was able to Abraham and Lazarus in Paradise. Also, while the rich man interceded for his brothers, where did his brothers ASK him to intercede for them? (And does this mean that people in Hell can intercede for us?) 3. So, when you pray to Mary, she is physically standing next you like Moses and Elijah were standing next to Jesus? What about Saint Joseph? St. Paul? St. Christopher? Are you comparing your prayer to Mary with the transfiguration? And when we examine the parallel in Luke (9:28-32) we see that Moses and Elijah talked to Jesus about his passion. Did Jesus pray to them? Did He ask for their intercession with the Father (keep in mind, the Father spoke at the end of this encounter)? 4. Commanding a dead woman to rise (and having it happen) is a far cry from praying to the dead. Do you pray to Mary like this? What would think of anyone who would attempt to pray to Mary in this fashion? 5. First thing I would like to know – who ARE the 24 elders? If they ARE Saints, shouldn’t we pray to them (it would seem they are the only saints in Heaven that can offer our prayers). I know the idea is that they got the prayers directly from us, but notice, they are holding a harp and a golden bowl. Where did they get the harp? When I look at your 2nd reference (Rev 8:3), it seems clear that, just like the angel was GIVEN the incense, I believe these elders also RECEIVED their bowls full of incense, not directly from us, but from the altar (just like the angel). As far as the sin offering, the Law REQUIRES any woman that gives birth (boy or girl) is to make a sin offering. That’s not my opinion, it’s clearly stated in Scripture. What Mary’s sin was, we don’t know (and we don’t need to know). If a woman dies in childbirth and cannot make the offering is up to God to judge.

PJM – I’m guessing your comments were directed more to Leopard than to me, so I’ll just say “Thanks for stopping by”.

Randy Carson – your argument against the brothers and sisters has been addressed already. I believe the CONTEXT clearly shows that James, Joseph, Simon, Judas, and at least 2 daughters were children of Joseph and Mary. I would ask you, other than the teaching of the Catholic Church, is there ANY reason you can put forward to prove that “Adelphoi” CANNOT mean “Brother” and “Adelphe” CANNOT mean “Sister”? King David was chosen by God and anointed by Samuel. Since he was chosen by God, he didn’t have to be the first-born. I have addressed the sin offering/baptism issue already. I will simply point out again that the 2 turtledoves Mary offered constituted a burnt offering and a sin offering. John’s baptism was for repentance (since neither John nor his baptism could remove sin, this doesn’t seem to be a problem). I would also point out that the baptism was a turning point for Jesus (from private to public life).

PJM – You are bringing in a discussion on authority, which is not what this thread is for. While I appreciate what you’re saying (and the spirit in which it is being said), I will not comment on it here (if I start another thread on authority, then I will be more than happy to address this).

AmbroseSJ – I answer you and you claim it’s because I’m looking back through history and taking advantage of what the Church has done already. Tell you what, let’s get back to the topic of this thread – How does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ?

BRB1 – I have already given this answer in previous threads. A quick recap – references to brothers and sisters in Matt and Mark (read the CONTEXT in which these occur!), plus the fact that Mary was engaged to Joseph BEFORE the visit from the angel (at that time most people married for the purpose of raising a family). There is no clear evidence that this did not happen (other than the claims of the Roman Catholic Church).

 

[BRB1]

BRB1 – I have already given this answer in previous threads. A quick recap – references to brothers and sisters in Matt and Mark (read the CONTEXT in which these occur!), plus the fact that Mary was engaged to Joseph BEFORE the visit from the angel (at that time most people married for the purpose of raising a family). There is no clear evidence that this did not happen (other than the claims of the Roman Catholic Church).

Then, I’m surprized no one corrected you earlier on your erroneous beliefs. There is clear scriptural evidence that Mary was virgin… and remained so thereafter.

Firstly James’ mother was also named Mary … but a different Mary. No blood relationship to Christ thru that different Mary.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy Carson – Mary is alive and in HEAVEN. What is her phone #? Do you have a private line to her?

Am I supposed to take this line of reasoning seriously?

I’ve addressed this already…Other than the assurance of the Church, how do you know Mary hears your pray? What feedback do you get from her? And how do you know it’s her and not some demon pretending to be her?

The assurance of the Church is the correct place to start; you have the cart before the horse. But since this is where you wish to begin, so be it.

How do you know that saints in heaven cannot hear us? Scripture tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:9
9However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Additionally, we know that the Bible says:

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

How would anyone in heaven have cause to rejoice if they were unaware of events on earth?

Finally, doesn’t Hebrews tell us that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses? What is this cloud if not the saints and angels in heaven? And if they are witnesses, they they can see and are aware of what we are doing.

Here’s more from the Word of God:

The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture

1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though.

4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)

5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation

“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Back to the Queen Mother – if Mary is the Queen of Heaven, how can she be a member of the Body (or Bride) of Christ?

Why would being queen disqualify her?

I also find it interesting that there is no mention in Scripture of any “Queen of Heaven” (outside of a pagan deity found in Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19, and 44:25). Did Jesus bow to His mother? We don’t have a record of it in Scripture (in fact, Matt 12:46-49 and Mark 3:31-35 show an opportunity to have done just that, but Jesus didn’t), and I seriously doubt the Creator of all things would bow to anything He created.

Ah…you are struggling with the idea that Jesus would honor his mother?

Jesus was a good Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly, and a key component of the Law is known as the Ten Commandments. The first commandment that deals with our relationships with others states, “Honor your Father and Mother.”

As a dutiful Jewish son who obeyed the law perfectly, Jesus fulfilled this commandment by honoring His Mother. The Hebrew word for “honor” actually means “glorify”. So, Jesus bestows glory on his mother, Mary.

At the annunciation, the angel of the Lord called Mary “full of grace”. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God declares that “from now on all generations will call [Mary] blessed”. Consequently, we honor Jesus’ mother in our own generation.

The Catholic Church was not the first to honor and glorify Mary - Jesus was. We simply obey the word of God which calls us to “be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly beloved children.” (Ephesians 5:1)

I stand corrected on the exact dates for these dogmas. Still, in light of the fact that even the first dogma didn’t appear until the 5th century, and that primarily to counter the Nestorian Heresy, doesn’t this indicate that the Church has changed, but God changes not (Mal 3:6).

Doctrine has not changed; it has matured or developed. Are you not the same person who nursed at your mother’s breast years ago? Have you developed since then?

And you say we are “obliged to believe them as divine revelation.”? I thought revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

And this remains true since the Marian dogmas were not “invented” later out of whole cloth but were developed or understood from what had already been revealed.

I reject the Marian dogmas because I find no basis for them in Scripture. If the “Sacred Tradition” leads to something that contradicts Sacred Scripture, then I suggest there is something wrong with your “Sacred Tradition”.

I reject the idea that everything is to be found exclusively in scripture because scripture itself does not tell me that this is so. However, since the Word of God is to be found in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, then we would expect to find no contradictions, and indeed, there are none. There are only your misunderstandings that you believe are contradictions.

Off to mass…more later, perhaps.

 

[Cachonga]

BRB1 – so you’re saying that, while there are more people named Mary (the mother of Jesus), there is only 1 person named James? Or just because a woman named Mary has a son named James, that no other Mary can have a son by that same name? Your argument ignores the CONTEXT of the scriptures in question.

Randy Carson – am I supposed to seriously believe that you can communicate with someone in Heaven (other than God)? What does 1 Cor 2:9 have to do with saints in heaven hearing us? Sounds to me like Paul is describing the place God is preparing for us. As far as Luke 15:7, let’s look at the whole parable – Luke 15:3-10 says, “And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.” Notice in the first part that it’s the shepherd that finds the sheep, brings it back, and calls his friends to rejoice with him. In the second part, the woman that finds the coin is the one who calls in the friends and neighbors to rejoice with her. We know that Jesus is the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14), and that He came “to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:10). Would you agree with me that Jesus would know when someone repents? As the Good Shepherd (as in the parable), would call his friends and neighbors to rejoice with Him. As a result, you have your great rejoicing in Heaven over one sinner being saved. Heb 12:1 says, “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” Would you agree that the saints in Heaven are witnesses to God’s goodness and mercy? We have their example of life and faith, so let us try and live up to the witness by all these others that have gone before. Don’t forget, this chapter comes right after Heb 11 (the “faith” chapter. The next part of your reply has already been responded to above (maybe you didn’t have a chance to see it before resubmitting it here).

Randy Carson – how can someone be the Queen Mother AND the Bride? More importantly, where do we see a Queen of Heaven, and how is it used? I don’t have a problem with Jesus honoring His mother. I do have a problem with people assuming that Jesus Christ, as God, would treat Mary the way a human (like Solomon) would treat his mother. I would also point to the example Jesus gives us (Matt 12:46-49 and Mark 3:31-35). Jesus honored Mary, but with proper honor. I would suggest that if the requirements for salvation have changed, then doctrine has changed. For example – 200 years ago, a Catholic could deny the Immaculate Conception and Bodily Assumption and still be in good standing with the Church. Today, any Catholic that denies these 2 dogmas will find themselves under the anathema of the Church. I would say this would affect salvation (if it’s true). Acts 16:30-31 says, “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” (I recommend reading the whole chapter, and the book, and the testament, and the Bible). What would Paul say today? (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the perpetual virginity of Mary, and Mary’s Immaculate Conception, and her Bodily Assumption, etc… and thou shalt be saved.) Seems strange that Paul would not mention these “revelations” when telling the Philippian jailer how to be saved. If a doctrine is not found in Scripture, how can it be proven to be from God? If it cannot be supported by Scripture, how can it be considered as binding on the conscience of men? And if it contradicts Scripture, how can it be considered anything other than a “tradition of men”?