How does one excommunicate a Pope

[holdencaulfield]

I assume that a new Pope must either do it or an Ecumenical Council be called. Can this be done while the heretic Pope is still alive.

 

[Karmastrike]

I don’t know what you mean by that, but I’m pretty sure a pope can’t be.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I don’t know what you mean by that, but I’m pretty sure a pope can’t be.

No, many a Pope has been excommunicated. The prime example is Pope Honorius who was excommunicated for being a heretic. Before the Great Schism this was easy to do because the of the other Patriarchs.

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I believe that the normal process for this would be for the next Pope to excommunicate the Pope before him, or for someone to call an Ecumenical Council before or after the Popes term ends, and to then excommunicate him. That is all I can think of. I’m sure however it is Canon Law somewhere.

 

[LilyM]

No, many a Pope has been excommunicated. The prime example is Pope Honorius who was excommunicated for being a heretic. Before the Great Schism this was easy to do because the of the other Patriarchs.

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I believe that the normal process for this would be for the next Pope to excommunicate the Pope before him, or for someone to call an Ecumenical Council before or after the Popes term ends, and to then excommunicate him. That is all I can think of. I’m sure however it is Canon Law somewhere.

Many? Who are some of the others then? Who declared them heretics? And are you unaware of the heated debate about whether Honorius actually was a heretic? Do a search on him on CAF and you’ll see.

Some calling themselves Pope were condemned as Antipopes (which they were), but that’s different from excommunicating a validly chosen Pontiff.

Besides which - how would you validly choose a new Pope while the current Pope still occupies the seat and before his being declared a heretic or anything? A council would have to be called or spontaneously gather, THEN almost certainly the Council would have to declare the Pope a heretic, as individual bishops don’t enjoy the charism of infallibility for disciplinary actions such as excommunications. THEN depose him and choose a new Pope.

 

[holdencaulfield]

The point is that a Pope can be a heretic. The answer I received on Fish Eaters was that either the Church would wait until the Pope’s death, and then declare him a heretic and anathematize him and declare his teachings heresy. Or an Ecumenical Council could do this before his death perhaps, and definitely after.

 

[AJV]

Sign up for a Google account and set up a blog. Then publish 101 Heresies which show the Pope is excommunicated.

 

[LilyM]

The point is that a Pope can be a heretic. The answer I received on Fish Eaters was that either the Church would wait until the Pope’s death, and then declare him a heretic and anathematize him and declare his teachings heresy. Or an Ecumenical Council could do this before his death perhaps, and definitely after.

The real point is that you stated that ‘many a Pope has been excommunicated’. Which goes well beyond saying a Pope can be a heretic. Goes beyond even saying that many a Pope has been a heretic.

I’d like to see some data to back up your assertion please.

 

[Scott1]

The Pope can not be a heretic… never has been, never will be.

Pope Honorius agreed with Sergius (Patriarch of Constantanople at the time) that the expression “one will” could be used… Sergius carried this one step further: if one will, then one nature… and bang, right back to the heresy of Monophysitism.

Pope Honorius was not defining a dogma of the faith… and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Pope Honorius was not speaking as head of the Church … and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Pope Honorius was not speaking with a clear intention to bind the entire Church… and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Thank God that … YET AGAIN… the Roman position was able to correct YET ANOTHER heresy of Constantanople… and authentic Christology was preserved.

Pope Honorius was declared a heretic by the East AFTER his death as a political move… so I really don’t think this argument holds much water.

Peace.

 

[Tietjen]

The point is that a Pope can be a heretic. The answer I received on Fish Eaters was that either the Church would wait until the Pope’s death, and then declare him a heretic and anathematize him and declare his teachings heresy. Or an Ecumenical Council could do this before his death perhaps, and definitely after.

Not to stray off topic, but the fish eaters site is far and away not the best place to be getting information on the Church. By enlarge they reject Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. God bless.

 

[Irish_Saints]

Not to stray off topic, but the fish eaters site is far and away not the best place to be getting information on the Church. By enlarge

they reject Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. God bless.*

Not to be the grammar police but…the phrase is actually rendered as “by and large.” According to Answers.com, the term has the following etymology:

*This expression originated in 17th-century seamanship, where it referred to sailing into the wind and then off it, which made it easier to steer. By the early 1700s the term had been broadened to mean “in one direction and another,” whence its present meaning of “in general.”
*

 

[Tietjen]

Not to be the grammar police but…the phrase is actually rendered as “by and large.” According to Answers.com, the term has the following etymology:

This expression originated in 17th-century seamanship, where it referred to sailing into the wind and then off it, which made it easier to steer. By the early 1700s the term had been broadened to mean “in one direction and another,” whence its present meaning of "in general."

LOL, thank you Irish. I’ll try to remember that.

 

[jj2011]

I assume that a new Pope must either do it or an Ecumenical Council be called. Can this be done while the heretic Pope is still alive.

No living pope has been shown here to have been validly excommunicated; Dioscorus tried it, but he was the one who wound up being anathematized, and this was in fact one of the reasons given by the Roman legates who did it.

Many theologians, especially before Vatican I, thought that a pope could become a heretic, but from what I can see it’s all theory. A living pope cannot be deposed or excommunicated.

 

[ProVobis]

The real point is that you stated that ‘many a Pope has been excommunicated’.

It’s good to know the word “many” has some meaning after all.

I would think, though, the only way possible to excommunicate a Pope would be to appoint another Pope and then have the second Pope excommunicate the first. I don’t think you can excommunicate a dead person unless you change Canon Law.

 

[ProVobis]

Not to stray off topic, but the fish eaters site is far and away not the best place to be getting information on the Church. By enlarge they reject Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. God bless.

So the only good places to be getting information is to seek sites where every document of Vatican II is accepted literally AND the Novus Ordo Mass is accepted without any criticisms? Good luck in trying to find one of those since the two appear to be in contradiction. Maybe that’s not the best word to use here but I can’t think of a better one at this moment.

As far as excommunications of Popes go, I can’t think of better attempts to excommunicate a Pope than those that indicted Pius XII.

 

[Milliardo]

A Pope can certainly be excommunicated and deposed by a Synod/Council if ever there’s a need to do so.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Interesting question!

 

[Tietjen]

So the only good places to be getting information is to seek sites where every document of Vatican II is accepted literally AND the Novus Ordo Mass is accepted without any criticisms? Good luck in trying to find one of those since the two appear to be in contradiction. Maybe that’s not the best word to use here but I can’t think of a better one at this moment.

No, you can of course seek information from lots of sources that oppose Church teaching, but perhaps if you want to know what the Church actually says about a specific matter it would be more beneficial to get your info from those sources that accept the authority of the Church. For those that refuse to accept the Church’s authority, likewise refuse to accept the authority of Christ Himself, who gave His authority to the Church. God bless.

 

[MrS]

It’s good to know the word “many” has some meaning after all.

I

many also has some meaning before all, and separate from all…

sorry…guess the early morning braincells (all 3 of them) were focused on the pro multis thing…

 

[EasterJoy]

It would seem that if the Pope broke the seal of confession, he would be excommunitcated, correct? There are things one might do that would lead to this, rather than beliefs one might hold. So the mechanism for doing it must exist.

Also, a Pope might publicly and stubbornly hold to beliefs which are heretical, scandalizing the faithful to the extent that excommunication would be unavoidable, and yet never teach these heresies as truths ex cathedra, and so never violate the doctrine of infalliblity.

God forbid such a thing ever happen.

 

[bilop]

No living pope has been shown here to have been validly excommunicated; Dioscorus tried it, but he was the one who wound up being anathematized, and this was in fact one of the reasons given by the Roman legates who did it.

Many theologians, especially before Vatican I, thought that a pope could become a heretic, but from what I can see it’s all theory. A living pope cannot be deposed or excommunicated.

I’m pretty sure you could depose a Pope in extreme cases.

What if a Pope decided to convert to Islam, and said he was going to destroy St. Peter’s, all the Churches in Rome, and all the art in the Vatican because they were idolatrous?

I’m pretty sure the Curia would have the Swiss Guard arrest him, and convene the College of Cardinals, or an Ecumenical Council, and elect a new Pope. They might have him declared mentally incompetent or something to save face, but they’d act.

God Bless