How does one fit into this community?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JReducation
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
For me, fitting into this community involves more lurking than posting. Sometimes, I pray quietly for people on the fora, other times, I might post a prayer. I read about issues which interest or concern me.
I appreciate the way you use the fora to educate, and often read your posts. When you are ill, I pray for you-particularly when I trip over a post of yours in a thread I am perusing.
I sense that your contributions to the fora are very helpful to many besides myself and base this upon feedback to many of your posts over time.
Perhaps those who are most strident with you are expressing pains not directly related to your contributions. Based upon what I have read in your postings, you are a pretty safe place to vent. I think of my children when they were younger knowing that even if they misbehaved, they could trust in my love. And, within that safe space, they could begin to rethink their thoughts and actions.
It didn’t make the “That’s it, I’m not going to love you any more!” arguments any easier to absorb. But a safe space filled with love and the pain which accompanies that love is very special.
May God bless you BrotherJR. I know that you have been helpful to me and I pray that God will give you more time to be helpful to all of us. Amen.
 
I don’t know if I should say sorry you feel like a fish out of water, or I’m real happy about it, because I feel both ways. I feel that way everywhere I go, and on CAF it’s no different. Sometimes I feel like I am so far beneath everyone here they must think I have no clue about my own Faith that I love. It’s OK, I am here to learn. But I feel stupid just the same, and like maybe I’m a bother to those in the fora because I don’t express myself as well. I am happy to know that there are others who feel similarly. Maybe you get attacked and I get looked down upon and someone else gets ignored-it’s all the same. Fish out of water. I try to remember that Jesus, too, was a fish out of water, and that He loved other such fishes! I also like this quote from General Patton: "If everyone’s thinking alike, someone isn’t thinking’. May not be one of your heroes, but he’s one of mine, and it helps me to think it’s fine to be different, as long as I’m trying to fulfil the duties God has given me and love Him as much as my small cold heart can!
 
Thank you for your kind words. I’m truly sorry to hear about your friend. Sometimes it pays to have a good friend who goes ahead of us.

I’m a big believer in tradition. But I’m also a believer that tradition is very broad. It includes so many wonderful parts of our faith and our history. Some things we don’t know or have forgotten. One of the most beautiful parts of Catholic tradition is Benedictine charity. I think this is a good place to resuscitate it.

St. Benedict always told his monks and his oblates that they must be hospitable to the stranger, because it was Christ who came calling at the door. He never quibbled with his guests about their faith or lack thereof. Benedict was a stern man with the heart of a poet. His approach was always to invite the other to come and see. When his invitation was accepted, he made every possible effort to explain the faith as patiently and as positively as possible. When his invitation was declined, he was most polite and thanked his listener for the opportunity to serve him.
 
JR tks for being on this site…I don’t think you are weird…I appreciate your comments regarding charity…and Benedict…I too keep my eyes closed during while praying during Holy Mass…I also don’t look at or watch people in line going to receive Communion…they way people dress…they way some of them visit with people in the pew while in line…I believe that there is a great deal to be said for the way thiings used to be…I have been fortunate to have been to Rome a couple of times/St. Peters…and several other churches in Rome…St. John Lateran, St Paul’s outside the walls…and others…what a treat…many of these older churches didn’t have kneelers…and I know that it may have not been always customary to kneel during the consecration…but in North America…I honestly don’t see how there could be no kneelers in Catholic Churches…so…I am weird …I ask honest questions on this site regarding V-2…not in a hurtful…or abraisive manner…just looking for answers…I find myself being drawn to, for lack of a better way of stating it…conservative Catholic sites…unfortunately I don’t not live near FSSP Parishes…so…until I do …I will live with people around me holding hands during the Lords Prayer (seems inocuous I know)…and applauding in church…for WHATEVER reason…people talking outloud before Mass…and talking loud when leaving Mass…the list goes on…I am very unsettled…I usually pray my Rosary during Mass…I am capable of following the Mass and responding…but continue to pray my Rosary except during the prayers of consecration…when I meditate on the Sacrafice…I can’t seem to get anyone to respond to specific questions…I am not a trouble maker…I consider myself devout…a sinner…but I am trying…so I suppose before I am kicked off of this site…I will have to have my questions answered on one of the trad sites…I wish I knew how to get hold of Fr. Mitch Pacwa…Pray for me…
 
One of the reasons why I seem so argumentative on this forum is that I often confront a poster who makes an arguement that is not backed up by evidence or church teaching… even if I kind of agree with the poster.

Having a law degree makes me very sensitive to “proof” and rational argumentation.

And this is deleterious to me.

I often think of quitting CAF - and then “someone is wrong on the internet”😛

http://shots.ikbis.com/image/249104/large/someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1246485981.jpg

And I’m often wrong too - but to be fair (to me :)) - I have changed my POV based on sound arguement.
 
awsiukiewicz

Let me begin with your last point. You can reach Fr. Mitch at EWTN.

Rev. Mitch Pacwa, SJ
EWTN
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210

Or you can call and ask for his direct mailing address: (205) 271-2966

He also has an email addy. If I can find it, I’ll see to it that you get it. I just can’t remember where I saw it.

I’m not sure what your questions are or I’d try to answer some. I don’t know all the answers. As I keep saying, I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. But I have a solid background in theology and strong pastoral and teaching experience. I can also refer you to some good folks.

You bring up some very good points and I like the way that you brought them up, because you’re not whining or fighting. You’re just stating facts. I was thinking similar thoughts this weekend. I attended mass at a parish that was celebrating a memorial mass for Fr. Mycal Judge, OFM a Franciscan Friar who gave his life at the WTC on 9/11. The first body that they carried out. Being Franciscan, the brothers attended.

They have a beautiful tabernacle that just jumps right out at you when you enter the church. You can’t miss this thing, unless you’re Helen Keller. I knelt to pray before mass. In the row in front of me there were two women chatting away as if they were at the supermarket. In the row where I was sitting, there was a younger mom with three kids. They were just playing around. One of the little girls had taken the collection basket that’s always kept near the door until it’s time to use it and she was wearing it as a hat. Her mom just sat there texting. I was getting a little angry.

However, I got through it with a few simple thoughts. First, I remembered that nothing man can do can harm God. I didn’t have to sit there and worry about how this hurts or harms God. The truth is that you can’t hurt God in any way. It’s a figure of speech, not a concrete fact. The cross is a whole other area of theology that does not apply here.

The other thought that kept me going was that my interior silence is more important than what these folks are doing. If I start to talk to myself about these folks, my silence is disrupted. You may know what I mean when I say “talk to myself.” It’s when we sit there and say “Don’t these women realize that they’re in church and doesn’t this mother have control over these children. I wish they would all shut up so I can pray.” If I were to do that, then I’m allowing the weaknesses of those around me to rob me of what I consider my greatest possession, interior silence.

Interior silence is the ability to be in that situation, look at God in the tabernacle and say, “I like to pray Lord, but there is so much happening around me, that I can’t focus too well. So I’ll do the best I can. Please Lord, don’t let there be a war in Syria, etc etc”

I place the distraction before God and let him know of my desire to pray with greater concentration and the fact that I’ll try my best and that’s all that I can offer. I find that when I do this, I feel a great sense of peace. There is such a wonderful sense of joy when we experience our poverty. Not to have the power to control what’s happening is poverty. Not to be able to pray as one would like to, because the distractions are many, is poverty. Poverty can be a virtue or a curse. I can gripe because of what I don’t have: control and quiet or I can rejoice, because I can come to God as a real human being who is powerless even to pray as he wants to pray. I love coming to God when I am most powerless. He just makes me feel like a million dollars. I walk away with the best smile and a light step.

There was more in your post that I can speak to, because I too have experienced it, but I think I’m running out of character space.
 
One of the reasons why I seem so argumentative on this forum is that I often confront a poster who makes an arguement that is not backed up by evidence or church teaching… even if I kind of agree with the poster.

Having a law degree makes me very sensitive to “proof” and rational argumentation.

And this is deleterious to me.

I often think of quitting CAF - and then “someone is wrong on the internet”😛

http://shots.ikbis.com/image/249104/large/someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1246485981.jpg

And I’m often wrong too - but to be fair (to me :)) - I have changed my POV based on sound arguement.
I always teach our novices something that you may find useful. In fact, we were discussing this in last week’s lesson.

I was explaining how we live in a world of “trust and verify”. But this is not evangelical. I was explaining that in the life of faith, the burden of proof is not on the teacher, but on the student. It’s not on the speaker but on the receiver.

This goofy custom that you often find on forums where people want you to give them document, page, parr and art is silly. As we go through life on the journey of faith, we learn many things. We see and hear many things and we record them in our memory banks. Further down the road, we find ourselves sharing what we have gathered along the way. This is how tradition works. It was this way from before the first book of the bible was written to today.

If someone wants to know more about what I say, they can certainly ask me where I got that information. If have the resource handy, it is charitable to share it. If I don’t remember where I picked it up or if it’s something that someone taught me and I never looked it up, then I don’t have a source. However, that does not make my statement unreliable. It is the burden of the one who believes that the statement is unreliable to prove it.

These two novices just received the habit on August 14th. They’re just starting their formal studies. I was trying to establish that we would be teaching them any things, but we cannot spend the time and energy proving everything we say by digging up ancient documents or things that are archived in Assisi, Rome, or some library somewhere and are not readily available. You either trust or you do the leg work for yourself; but don’t impose on the other person. The problem does not belong to the other person. It is not the other person who doubts. It is you. Therefore, since you have the need to satisfy your doubt, you have the responsibility to do the necessary work.

We have taken something from the world of politics “trust and verify” and over generalized it. We’re trying to use it in the world of faith. The world of faith does not operate that way. Theologians don’t get up in a classroom and give references during their lectures. They would never get done. The theology student has to go find the information himself. The preacher does not give footnotes and bibliography when preaching a retreat or mission. He speaks. The person listening takes it, leaves it or does the research for himself. The Fathers of the Church never gave footnotes. They simply taught and wrote what had been handed to them via oral tradition.

In other words, we must be careful not to stifle oral tradition. Oral tradition is part of every culture and the Church is on exception. It’s a beautiful part of culture. It’s much more beautiful when to people interact then when someone slips a document under your nose and says, “Here, read this.” That’s pretty cold. Lawyers do that, not evangelists.
 
awsiukiewicz

Let me begin with your last point. You can reach Fr. Mitch at EWTN.

Rev. Mitch Pacwa, SJ
EWTN
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210

Or you can call and ask for his direct mailing address: (205) 271-2966

He also has an email addy. If I can find it, I’ll see to it that you get it. I just can’t remember where I saw it.

I’m not sure what your questions are or I’d try to answer some. I don’t know all the answers. As I keep saying, I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. But I have a solid background in theology and strong pastoral and teaching experience. I can also refer you to some good folks.

You bring up some very good points and I like the way that you brought them up, because you’re not whining or fighting. You’re just stating facts. I was thinking similar thoughts this weekend. I attended mass at a parish that was celebrating a memorial mass for Fr. Mycal Judge, OFM a Franciscan Friar who gave his life at the WTC on 9/11. The first body that they carried out. Being Franciscan, the brothers attended.

They have a beautiful tabernacle that just jumps right out at you when you enter the church. You can’t miss this thing, unless you’re Helen Keller. I knelt to pray before mass. In the row in front of me there were two women chatting away as if they were at the supermarket. In the row where I was sitting, there was a younger mom with three kids. They were just playing around. One of the little girls had taken the collection basket that’s always kept near the door until it’s time to use it and she was wearing it as a hat. Her mom just sat there texting. I was getting a little angry.

However, I got through it with a few simple thoughts. First, I remembered that nothing man can do can harm God. I didn’t have to sit there and worry about how this hurts or harms God. The truth is that you can’t hurt God in any way. It’s a figure of speech, not a concrete fact. The cross is a whole other area of theology that does not apply here.

The other thought that kept me going was that my interior silence is more important than what these folks are doing. If I start to talk to myself about these folks, my silence is disrupted. You may know what I mean when I say “talk to myself.” It’s when we sit there and say “Don’t these women realize that they’re in church and doesn’t this mother have control over these children. I wish they would all shut up so I can pray.” If I were to do that, then I’m allowing the weaknesses of those around me to rob me of what I consider my greatest possession, interior silence.

Interior silence is the ability to be in that situation, look at God in the tabernacle and say, “I like to pray Lord, but there is so much happening around me, that I can’t focus too well. So I’ll do the best I can. Please Lord, don’t let there be a war in Syria, etc etc”

I place the distraction before God and let him know of my desire to pray with greater concentration and the fact that I’ll try my best and that’s all that I can offer. I find that when I do this, I feel a great sense of peace. There is such a wonderful sense of joy when we experience our poverty. Not to have the power to control what’s happening is poverty. Not to be able to pray as one would like to, because the distractions are many, is poverty. Poverty can be a virtue or a curse. I can gripe because of what I don’t have: control and quiet or I can rejoice, because I can come to God as a real human being who is powerless even to pray as he wants to pray. I love coming to God when I am most powerless. He just makes me feel like a million dollars. I walk away with the best smile and a light step.

There was more in your post that I can speak to, because I too have experienced it, but I think I’m running out of character space.
 
Sometimes, I feel like a fish out of water on this forum and several others too. I have lived in several countries and about 10 dioceses, I think, not to mention religious houses. None of them have been perfect. Some were so far from perfect that I prayed daily to be taken out of there. I remember one situation where I did ask the superior general to please do something about it or to transfer me. But I never told anyone else how I felt about it, just him. He was the only person who had the power to resolve my problem.

The reason that I feel like a fish out of water is because despite the fact that I have lived and worked in very imperfect situations, some of them downright sinful, I never felt the need or the urge to go public with my concerns. I never felt the need or the urge to express my opinion. Of course I had no feelings about things that other people did over there when I was too busy over here. I can’t be in two places at one time. As I told a lady who asked me if I had noticed the short skirt of the girl in front of me at mass. “No, I’m afraid I didn’t. Because I can’t pray unless I close my eyes. With my eyes closed, I can’t see the girl in front of me. So I either look at the girl and don’t pray or I pray and don’t get to see the girl. I wish I could help you, but I can’t.” :o

I realize that some people hate me. You should see my emails and the hate mail I get, because I just can’t bring myself to join in the complaining about the Church, be it local or global.

It’s not that I’m blind. It has more to do with something that I learned as a novice and I have never forgotten. “I am what I am before God . . . nothing else.” I know that I’m not the Messiah. I know that I’m not a caretaker. I know that I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. So I limit myself to tackling those things that are within my limited abilities and limited intellect.

I feel that I have to share this here, because I’m getting some PMs and emails from people who think that I’m indifferent, because I don’t complain. But I don’t complain because to complain on these forums is not going to solve anything. Unless Pope Francis or my bishop read these, its just not productive. Whereas, I find teaching very productive. When someone comes in with a mistaken idea or a question. That’s a good use of the time on the forum.

I also understand that bishops and popes have very busy lives. I have worked for several bishops. There is no way that they can handle every problem in a diocese. They have to pick and choose. The bishop’s priorities are not always going to be my priorities. However, I accept that, because we’re too different people. What I see as urgent he does not and the other way around. To get him to see things my way, I would have to change him. It’s not my role in life to change who people are. God puts people in our path to challenge us, to enrich our lives, and at times even to make us do penance. If we try to change those folks, we may find that we’re tampering with God’s plan for us.

Maybe it can be considered complaining. I’m not sure. When I find something that I think it’s sooooo serious that the bishop or a religious superior should get involved, I contact that person. But I never tell anyone what I saw or what I perceive to be a concern, except in broad strokes. I may say that I believe there is a problem with how we prepare children for Confirmation. I won’t say that there is a problem with how the following parishes prepare them for Confirmation and then proceed to make a list. If I have such a list, it goes to the bishop.

Am I strange? Am I really as bad a person as a few people say I am? I’m curious. Please be gentle. I’m an old man. :yup:
Please, Brother, don’t be so hard on yourself. I have always valued your advice and writing, and I think you are pretty wonderful.

Those that disparage you are just envious of your God-given wisdom. Remember how Our Lord was treated, and consider yourself in good company.🙂
 
Brother Jay, you taught me, and very gently, to stop complaining and start praying. You taught me the humility and abject obedience of Saint Francis to his Bishop, in all things but sin. All of this helped (and helps) me to realize that God is in charge of all things and that my opinions are not superior to God’s plan. If God takes 1,000 years to turn His Church around, blessed be God! If He does it overnight, blessed be God!

Our culture is one of hyper-criticism and of a demand for instant results - from the demand for a return to the social decorum of the 1950s to the rapid alleviation of each and every potential ill in the 1.2 billion member Church. And, much of this is demanded without so much as even a casual prayer tossed heavenward. We are truly an unfortunate generation, certainly no better than any which has gone before. Pity the Priests who must deal with our constant bickering and backbiting!

The solution to everything must begin with prayer, but that does not seem to fit into our time table. Well, we can be certain that it fits into God’s time table. 7 billion souls and how many does He hear from on a daily basis? So, at your urging, I pray more and complain less.

Thanks be to God and to His servant, Brother JR.

p.s. You are experiencing the cost of holiness in a world which is perishing for a lack of holiness.
 
Here are some thoughts that I’ve had as I can’t sleep very well these days. I don’t want to chase the vocal minority off the Internet, not that I can anyway. No one owns the Internet. There are very vocal voices to the far right and to the far left and then there are a few (very few) along the continuum between the two ends.

I truly believe that both ends need to remain in the dialogue, because both have something to offer. I just wish that they would offer it with a little more patience, less anger, and a sense of humor. One danger of extremes is the risk of taking oneself so seriously that one forgets to laugh at human foibles. Even though one is speaking about serious matters: abortion, same sex marriage, liturgy, ecumenism, you name it; there is room to laugh at ourselves in all of this. Laughter is the best antidote for arguments. When people laugh, they can’t argue. Humor also helps us calm down.

Having said this, when I started this thread, I thought there have to be others like me around here. I can’t be the only one in the world. That would be scary to say the least. There have to be others who love tradition, but do not like labels. I would never call myself a Traditionalist, not because I don’t love and appreciate tradition, because I don’t like labels. One of the first things we did when we separated from the larger Franciscan community to form our little community was to recover an ancient Franciscan tradition that goes back to 1209. Everyone is called Brother, ordained or not. Father is only the superior as long as he superior. When his term is over, he becomes Brother again. And even the superior signs himself “Brother”. His spiritual sons call him “Father” as did the first generation of Franciscans with St. Francis. That’s just a simple example of my love for tradition and my discomfort with labels.

I also thought that I can’t be the only person who loves tradition, but feels miserable when he’s in the middle of a group of others who love tradition, but they spend too much time complaining about things that they can’t change to people who can’t do anything about it. After a while, my head starts to hurt, because I’m hearing a replay of the same song for the 30th time this month. There must be others who experience the same misery and who would love to be able to say that they love tradition, but could care less about the things they can’t change or that they love tradition, but they are not in the mood to do battle with anyone who does not love tradition.

There have to be others who love tradition and do not live in fear of the pope overruling SP. They simply accept that as part of tradition as well. Popes can do these kinds of things. We would hope that a pope does not do it, but if he does it, we will accept it as part of our papal tradition. Popes have made some rather interesting changes in Church policies, disciplines and laws over the centuries. So revoking SP would just be part of that long list of things that popes have done over the centuries that have raised some eyebrows, but have not brought down the Church. Until the pope revokes SP, if that’s in the plans, why worry about it? It may never happen. To worry about what may never happen is a waste of God’s time and destroys our interior silence. When we don’t have interior silence, we can’t hear the voice of God.

It would be great to hear from those who love tradition, but are uncomfortable in this circle, because they don’t speak the same way and don’t feel the need to worry about many of these things or complain about them, unless it’s to the person who can do something to fix what is allegedly broken. It would be great to hear from those who love tradition, but may feel that the only way one can speak about tradition on a traditional forum is if one wants to debate. If one just wants to grow in the spiritual life or wants to become more educated in the faith, one can’t rely on the traditional forum, because it never fails that one person says A and the other comes in and calls him a Modernist or one person says B and the other comes in and calls him a “Rad Trad”. Why not just let people say what they have in mind and accept their contribution as a gift to the group?

I remember when I was in the world. I would always get ties for Christmas and birthdays. Most of them were ties that I would never buy for myself. They were plain ugly or they were green and I hate green. That’s a whole other story and a very funny one too. Nonetheless, I always appreciated the kindness of the other person who wanted to give me something that they felt represented them. The same thing is true in a dialogue. I don’t always agree with what the other person says, but I truly appreciate what he contributes, because he wants to give me a piece of himself.
 
Here are some thoughts that I’ve had as I can’t sleep very well these days. I don’t want to chase the vocal minority off the Internet, not that I can anyway. No one owns the Internet. There are very vocal voices to the far right and to the far left and then there are a few (very few) along the continuum between the two ends.

I truly believe that both ends need to remain in the dialogue, because both have something to offer. I just wish that they would offer it with a little more patience, less anger, and a sense of humor. One danger of extremes is the risk of taking oneself so seriously that one forgets to laugh at human foibles. Even though one is speaking about serious matters: abortion, same sex marriage, liturgy, ecumenism, you name it; there is room to laugh at ourselves in all of this. Laughter is the best antidote for arguments. When people laugh, they can’t argue. Humor also helps us calm down.

Having said this, when I started this thread, I thought there have to be others like me around here. I can’t be the only one in the world. That would be scary to say the least. There have to be others who love tradition, but do not like labels. I would never call myself a Traditionalist, not because I don’t love and appreciate tradition, because I don’t like labels. One of the first things we did when we separated from the larger Franciscan community to form our little community was to recover an ancient Franciscan tradition that goes back to 1209. Everyone is called Brother, ordained or not. Father is only the superior as long as he superior. When his term is over, he becomes Brother again. And even the superior signs himself “Brother”. His spiritual sons call him “Father” as did the first generation of Franciscans with St. Francis. That’s just a simple example of my love for tradition and my discomfort with labels.

I also thought that I can’t be the only person who loves tradition, but feels miserable when he’s in the middle of a group of others who love tradition, but they spend too much time complaining about things that they can’t change to people who can’t do anything about it. After a while, my head starts to hurt, because I’m hearing a replay of the same song for the 30th time this month. There must be others who experience the same misery and who would love to be able to say that they love tradition, but could care less about the things they can’t change or that they love tradition, but they are not in the mood to do battle with anyone who does not love tradition.

There have to be others who love tradition and do not live in fear of the pope overruling SP. They simply accept that as part of tradition as well. Popes can do these kinds of things. We would hope that a pope does not do it, but if he does it, we will accept it as part of our papal tradition. Popes have made some rather interesting changes in Church policies, disciplines and laws over the centuries. So revoking SP would just be part of that long list of things that popes have done over the centuries that have raised some eyebrows, but have not brought down the Church. Until the pope revokes SP, if that’s in the plans, why worry about it? It may never happen. To worry about what may never happen is a waste of God’s time and destroys our interior silence. When we don’t have interior silence, we can’t hear the voice of God.

It would be great to hear from those who love tradition, but are uncomfortable in this circle, because they don’t speak the same way and don’t feel the need to worry about many of these things or complain about them, unless it’s to the person who can do something to fix what is allegedly broken. It would be great to hear from those who love tradition, but may feel that the only way one can speak about tradition on a traditional forum is if one wants to debate. If one just wants to grow in the spiritual life or wants to become more educated in the faith, one can’t rely on the traditional forum, because it never fails that one person says A and the other comes in and calls him a Modernist or one person says B and the other comes in and calls him a “Rad Trad”. Why not just let people say what they have in mind and accept their contribution as a gift to the group?

I remember when I was in the world. I would always get ties for Christmas and birthdays. Most of them were ties that I would never buy for myself. They were plain ugly or they were green and I hate green. That’s a whole other story and a very funny one too. Nonetheless, I always appreciated the kindness of the other person who wanted to give me something that they felt represented them. The same thing is true in a dialogue. I don’t always agree with what the other person says, but I truly appreciate what he contributes, because he wants to give me a piece of himself.
Hi Brother Jay, I can identify with much of what you have posted. I try to avoid contentious threads, for the most part. But sometimes, I just can’t help myself.

When people are entrenched in their mindset, there is no way they are going to even consider what those of a different mindset have to say.

I, too have been told that some will be glad when my whole generation is dead and buried. (I’m going to live to at least 120 just to spite them)! I have been told I don’t belong on a certain subforum. and on and on. I am traditional in every way, except I love the OF. Therefore I certainly can’t be a Traditionalist.

English speaks to my heart and Latin speaks to my head. At my age, my heart works better than my head:D So to maintain my peace, I try to keep my mouth shut.

I am so glad that you are still able to carry on this internet ministry. I am sure you are helping many. I hope you keep posting for many, many years.
 
I also thought that I can’t be the only person who loves tradition, but feels miserable when he’s in the middle of a group of others who love tradition, but they spend too much time complaining about things that they can’t change to people who can’t do anything about it. After a while, my head starts to hurt, because I’m hearing a replay of the same song for the 30th time this month. There must be others who experience the same misery and who would love to be able to say that they love tradition, but could care less about the things they can’t change or that they love tradition, but they are not in the mood to do battle with anyone who does not love tradition.

There have to be others who love tradition and do not live in fear of the pope overruling SP. They simply accept that as part of tradition as well. Popes can do these kinds of things. We would hope that a pope does not do it, but if he does it, we will accept it as part of our papal tradition. Popes have made some rather interesting changes in Church policies, disciplines and laws over the centuries. So revoking SP would just be part of that long list of things that popes have done over the centuries that have raised some eyebrows, but have not brought down the Church. Until the pope revokes SP, if that’s in the plans, why worry about it? It may never happen. To worry about what may never happen is a waste of God’s time and destroys our interior silence. When we don’t have interior silence, we can’t hear the voice of God.

It would be great to hear from those who love tradition, but are uncomfortable in this circle, because they don’t speak the same way and don’t feel the need to worry about many of these things or complain about them, unless it’s to the person who can do something to fix what is allegedly broken. It would be great to hear from those who love tradition, but may feel that the only way one can speak about tradition on a traditional forum is if one wants to debate. If one just wants to grow in the spiritual life or wants to become more educated in the faith, one can’t rely on the traditional forum, because it never fails that one person says A and the other comes in and calls him a Modernist or one person says B and the other comes in and calls him a “Rad Trad”. Why not just let people say what they have in mind and accept their contribution as a gift to the group?
I love tradition and I am OK with taking on the label of “traditionalist” because I want to let people know that I love tradition. But I am really upset by the constant complaining and negativity that is common on trad forums. Especially when it is directed at the Pope. I am also really upset by the sense of division that I notice so often here, where threads keep turning into battles between traditionalists and those who are not. These are often not intellectual debates, but rather personal and acrimonious arguments.

There is so much more to tradition than complaining and fighting and yet those things seem to dominate when it comes to online discussion. If you have some ideas about how to change this, Brother, then I am ready to try them.

BTW, today’s Gospel also had something relevant to the subject of hate mail. Also in Luke 6:
27 'But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly.
The sort of people who send hate mail or post insults and slander are people who need our prayers. When people write hateful things to or about me, I always try to pray for God to bless them.
 
At my age, my heart works better than my head:D So to maintain my peace, I try to keep my mouth shut.
Loved this sentence. :yup: That’s me to a Tee
I love tradition and I am OK with taking on the label of “traditionalist” because I want to let people know that I love tradition. But I am really upset by the constant complaining and negativity that is common on trad forums. Especially when it is directed at the Pope. I am also really upset by the sense of division that I notice so often here, where threads keep turning into battles between traditionalists and those who are not. These are often not intellectual debates, but rather personal and acrimonious arguments.

There is so much more to tradition than complaining and fighting and yet those things seem to dominate when it comes to online discussion. If you have some ideas about how to change this, Brother, then I am ready to try them.
I agree with this. We’re not going to get rid of arguments and fights altogether. As Plato puts it, man is meant for the polis. He is political by nature.

The question is how to get people to engage in learning rather than fighting. Take the liturgy. It would be awesome to see threads where instead of comparing the greatness of the EF and the weakness of the OF, one would look at both and learn what each part is about, where it came from, what was the intent when it was incorporated into the liturgy.

I did this with last year’s novices and I may do it again with this year’s class, if I have the energy, because it is labor intensive. We took the Ordinary Form and we went through the parts and the prayers. We went into Church history and different traditions and we were able to connect dots. For example, Blessed Sacrament chapels are not a new thing. They come to us from the Benedictine tradition. Whereas in the EF form the tabernacle at the center of the main altar is important. Yet, the tabernacle on the main altar comes to us from the Franciscan tradition. Both are very Catholic and both come from old and venerable schools. To understand the value of both, one may have to look a little at how these schools got into this pattern and how it spread.

Like this, we went through other parts of the mass. For example the EF has prayers at the foot of the altar, the OF does not. Then we learned that the prayers at the foot of the altar are a later development that comes along around the 16th century. For those dioceses and religious orders that did not have it, it became optional to use them and for newer parishes and religious communities it became the norm, because those were the norms in the rubrics for the Tridentine form. We took the example how among Franciscans some friar priests used them and some did not all the way until Vatican II, because we were one of those religious families that was much older than Trent and were exempt from using them, if we chose not to do so. Then the superiors simply left it up to the friars to choose. Eventually, it became very common, because the younger friars were born seeing them in their home parishes. When they came to the order, they came with this tradition of prayers at the foot of the altar, but the door was open for those who wanted to start the mass with the penitential right as we have in the OF.

We also looked at how the prayers of the foot of the altar take their root in ancient Jewish cult that was probably practiced by Jesus himself. As the high priest entered the temple, there were prayers to be said as he went through different chambers until he reached the Holy of Holies. “I will go to the altar of God” is part of a psalm that reflects the way that they prayed at the time. They began their reflection before reaching the altar. So it’s a beautiful tradition that speaks to the holiness and the sanctuary where the sacrifice will be offered. But those who did not have the prayers, such as the older religious orders, were just as aware of the sacredness of the sanctuary and man’s unworthiness to approach God’s altar, hence the penitential rite.

Like this, there are other things that people don’t know about tradition that would be good to learn. I have a Dominican friend who says that he cringes when he hears people say that Our Lady gave St. Dominic the rosary. He makes me laugh because he says, "Everyone believes this story except Dominicans. We know the truth, but we’re not telling. " 😃 He means that they’re not going to argue, because it’s not important. The legend adds nothing to the rosary.

However, the tradition of the rosary has a very beautiful history and the power of the rosary is stunning. From the early days when the rosary didn’t look like what we know today to this day, God has done some amazing things in the life of those who pray the rosary. Just look at the turn around in the Syrian situation after the vigils this past Saturday. The two elements at those vigils were the rosary and the Eucharist. Throughout history we see the power and glory of God when those elements are combined. There is a reason for every part of the rosary. Even the Luminous Mysteries have a proper place in this tradition, because the tradition is fluid not rigid. Those kinds of threads are wonderful as long as people are open to Q & A, rather than coming to the table with their minds made up that they are going to show another person what is right, rather than coming to learn and teach.

I guess this is the change that we need. We need to shift from triumphalism to simply learning and teaching. It’s not going to kill anyone to listen. If one cannot wrap his head around what another is saying, no one has to do so. Just leave it and move along.
 
shift from triumphalism to simply learning and teaching
I assume triumphalism is a seemingly excessive emphasis on liturgy, correct? If that is the case, then I argue that an aesthetically pleasing liturgy (ala’ the ICRSP) and learning/teaching are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, some priests out there make a conscious effort to teach through the liturgy, tying the daily readings, catechism, and evangelization all back to the sacrifice that happens at the altar.

I think that though there is a huge bitter pill that many self-identifying trads have swallowed (including myself at times), one should not view this as in and of itself characteristic of traditionalist’s ideology or spiritual outlook. Many of us still attend the OF mass on a weekly+ basis. Many DO attempt to learn about the various orders, traditions, etc. in the Church. What gives us the dour manner is the situation we feel we are in.

We.Feel.Alone.

When I was a 21 year old college student, I was excited-nay, ecstatic to learn about the differences between a brother, and a monk, a friar, or a priest and a deacon, that the mass is a sacrifice, that I belong to the latin rite, that the church is more than the latin rite… you get my drift. All of this knowledge is mind-boggling. THE CHURCH IS GLORIOUS AND EPIC!! I discovered this all between semesters of school one summer. I traveled 100+ miles every other weekend and explored dozes of Catholic Churches in the nearest metropolitan area-Benedictine, Jesuit, Franciscan, Maronite, Byzantine, Diocesan EF, the Institute, etc… It was all so beautiful!

After my summer of falling in love with the church and the sacrifice of the mass, the beauty of the Divine Office, and growing in love with my then-girlfriend (now Fiancee) I returned home for a new semester, with a new pastor and a fresh round with our Uni’s Newman center. It was the 150th anniversary of my parish’s founding that year, and the bulletin was alight with all of this rhetoric on our long-lasting community, ancestors, etc.

I thought, “Hey! I love the EF mass! It’s our parishes 150th anniversary. I wonder if to celebrate, we could show our roots and have a one-off EF mass in commemoration?” It seemed like a good idea. I talked about it with some others. Some students seemed interested, but the Newman center leader and the sister who worked in youth outreach both came to me with a look of puzzlement. I was brought into an office, and asked if I was trying to create friction by bringing a 1962 missal with me to the Newman center when praying alone. I said of course not, that I was drawn to the old mass, but that was it. I was genuinely confused by the reaction I got from them. It was almost hostile, like I was someone on some fringe for just loving the church’s past. But I brushed it aside.

I eventually arranged to speak with my pastor, wanting to find out if it would be possible to offer the old mass for the 150th anniversary. That was the real big shock for me. Again, I was 21 at the time. I was excited about the faith, I had met people at different parishes in the state, in their own different traditions who loved the faith, and who loved the church. I felt the same way, and I wanted to share this with my home parish, just once.

I sat with my pastor and began my proposal. After mentioning the “Extraordinary Form” he cut me off. I was told, “Well that’s nice that you like that, but no one here would. It would be a waste of resources.” I asked how he knew that-I used myself as an example, citing that I had no knowledge of the old mass until I stumbled upon it and fell in love. I said that while I was only one case, that-all things being equal-if someone who has not been exposed to the faith in the traditional manner reacts even half as strongly as I and begins coming to mass weekly and learning about the faith, would it not be worth it? I pulled out a list of signatures from 50 families in a 75 mile radius who expressed a desire to help coordinate a once-off TLM at our parish, showing that I was not alone in having such a desire. This is where things took a turn for the worst.

Once I pulled out the list of signatures, things got cold real quick. I cannot remember his exact phrasing, but I remember a word I had not really understood before… “Lefebvrists”. I was off guard-I repeated the phrase back to him, confused. He said, "This is the mass of the lefebvrists, a bunch of schismatics who reject the holocaust. They are not part of the church. " By the end of the meeting, I had been told that I was better to drive 120 miles one way each sunday, across diocesan lines to go to mass in the EF (ICRSP), that my tithes and those of 50+ families who wanted to attend that form of the mass in our diocese did not matter-we should leave and go somewhere else.

I was heartbroken. I felt cheated-betrayed. I had attended this church since my birth…it was my hometown, and now I felt as if I was no longer welcome. As the months went by, the parish moved in a different direction liturgically than I was. It became difficult to watch certain changes be made, as I read council documents, and attended mass in different locations. I still attended most Sundays in my hometown, but would travel once a month or so to an EF or certain OF masses (or E.C. Divine Liturgies). The enormity of differences I was able to discern between certain OF’s, EF’s, DL’s, and the liturgies in my own diocese tugged at my heart. Coupled with conversations with other young catholics, I discovered that the general understanding and passion for the faith was just not there in the newman center. It was a fraternal club…not a place to grow in holiness. Religious relativism ran the center, with non-catholics being encouraged to partake in the eucharist. Students linked arms and skipped in circles during the recessional. And they all loved it. And I was told I was not welcome. Now at 23, I am alone in the Ozarks.
 
Sometimes, I feel like a fish out of water on this forum and several others too. I have lived in several countries and about 10 dioceses, I think, not to mention religious houses. None of them have been perfect. Some were so far from perfect that I prayed daily to be taken out of there. I remember one situation where I did ask the superior general to please do something about it or to transfer me. But I never told anyone else how I felt about it, just him. He was the only person who had the power to resolve my problem.

The reason that I feel like a fish out of water is because despite the fact that I have lived and worked in very imperfect situations, some of them downright sinful, I never felt the need or the urge to go public with my concerns. I never felt the need or the urge to express my opinion. Of course I had no feelings about things that other people did over there when I was too busy over here. I can’t be in two places at one time. As I told a lady who asked me if I had noticed the short skirt of the girl in front of me at mass. “No, I’m afraid I didn’t. Because I can’t pray unless I close my eyes. With my eyes closed, I can’t see the girl in front of me. So I either look at the girl and don’t pray or I pray and don’t get to see the girl. I wish I could help you, but I can’t.” :o

I realize that some people hate me. You should see my emails and the hate mail I get, because I just can’t bring myself to join in the complaining about the Church, be it local or global.

It’s not that I’m blind. It has more to do with something that I learned as a novice and I have never forgotten. “I am what I am before God . . . nothing else.” I know that I’m not the Messiah. I know that I’m not a caretaker. I know that I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. So I limit myself to tackling those things that are within my limited abilities and limited intellect.

I feel that I have to share this here, because I’m getting some PMs and emails from people who think that I’m indifferent, because I don’t complain. But I don’t complain because to complain on these forums is not going to solve anything. Unless Pope Francis or my bishop read these, its just not productive. Whereas, I find teaching very productive. When someone comes in with a mistaken idea or a question. That’s a good use of the time on the forum.

I also understand that bishops and popes have very busy lives. I have worked for several bishops. There is no way that they can handle every problem in a diocese. They have to pick and choose. The bishop’s priorities are not always going to be my priorities. However, I accept that, because we’re too different people. What I see as urgent he does not and the other way around. To get him to see things my way, I would have to change him. It’s not my role in life to change who people are. God puts people in our path to challenge us, to enrich our lives, and at times even to make us do penance. If we try to change those folks, we may find that we’re tampering with God’s plan for us.

Maybe it can be considered complaining. I’m not sure. When I find something that I think it’s sooooo serious that the bishop or a religious superior should get involved, I contact that person. But I never tell anyone what I saw or what I perceive to be a concern, except in broad strokes. I may say that I believe there is a problem with how we prepare children for Confirmation. I won’t say that there is a problem with how the following parishes prepare them for Confirmation and then proceed to make a list. If I have such a list, it goes to the bishop.

Am I strange? Am I really as bad a person as a few people say I am? I’m curious. Please be gentle. I’m an old man. :yup:
You are a wise and gentle soul, Brother. I have learned much - both information and great wisdom/perspective - from your posts.

Your presence on this forum is truly a gift to all its readers. I am extremely surprised that you get nasty messages. And for what it’s worth, I wholeheartedly believe that there is just such a silent majority as you describe.

May God bless you in all your endeavors, Brother.
 
I assume triumphalism is a seemingly excessive emphasis on liturgy, correct?
Not at all. Triumphalism would be a person who comes in and says, “My liturgy is better than your liturgy, because it’s [insert whatever].”

Is there an excessive emphasis on liturgy? There can be. If one measures the faith of other people by the liturgy that they prefer, then that would be an example of excessive emphasis. If one defines Catholicism solely by the form of the mass, that’s excessive. The form of the mass is part of a tapestry that forms Catholicism.

There are other forms of excessive emphasis on liturgy in the opposite direction, meaning to the left of center. If one feels that one has to doctor up the liturgy for whatever reasons, that’s excessive. The liturgy speaks for itself. It does not need to be doctored up. It needs to be understood. I truly believe that those who doctor it up either don’t understand it or believe that others are too dumb to understand the liturgy, so it’s better to doctor it for them than to explain it.

As I said in my post above. In our novitiate we teach the OF and the EF, but not as conflicting. We show where each of them comes from and how the different prayers and parts of each form connect to very specific dots in Catholic tradition. When our novices are at an OF mass and they hear the simple prayers at the offertory, they are not thinking “how lacking in theology”. On the contrary, they are thinking, “this means this” or “this is a reference to that”. Their mind and heart is drawn to the foundation of the prayers. When they attend a mass in the Extraordinary Form, they understand each part and why the priest does prayers at the foot of the altar or why the priest prays the canon in silence. They even understand that neither the Ordinary Form nor the Extraordinary form are part of our Franciscan tradition. That we have our own tradition, but have been left free to use our tradition or use the general Roman Missal. They have a feeling of liturgy being bigger that just what is happening in front of them. It is all about Christ and his Church.

This mindset leaves no room for triumphalism, because regardless of the form of the mass, the person does not become obsessed with in favor of one and against the other. That’s triumphalism and it happens on the left and right of center. It’s the mistaken feeling that one has the better part.

As I like to say, “Triumphalism is the conviction that I am always Mary and never Martha.”

That’s from me, not from some wise person.
 
I assume triumphalism is a seemingly excessive emphasis on liturgy, correct? If that is the case, then I argue that an aesthetically pleasing liturgy (ala’ the ICRSP) and learning/teaching are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, some priests out there make a conscious effort to teach through the liturgy, tying the daily readings, catechism, and evangelization all back to the sacrifice that happens at the altar.

I think that though there is a huge bitter pill that many self-identifying trads have swallowed (including myself at times), one should not view this as in and of itself characteristic of traditionalist’s ideology or spiritual outlook. Many of us still attend the OF mass on a weekly+ basis. Many DO attempt to learn about the various orders, traditions, etc. in the Church. What gives us the dour manner is the situation we feel we are in.

We.Feel.Alone.
I snipped the heart-breaking story even though I think it is really important. I just want to save space. I like Brother’s idea to shift our emphasis from fighting to learning, but I think that a solution that involves just the head is not enough. I think that we need to fully engage our hearts as well. We need to learn more than information about Church history, we need to learn to have empathy for each other.

Pretty much all of us here are broken and hurting in some way. We bring our feelings of being alone, rejected, betrayed, despised, etc. to our discussions. This is why the debates keep going off the rails as they do. We need to learn how to understand each other. We need to ask what the person we are disagreeing with feels and why he feels that way.

I can tell you what this place feels like to a lot of trads. It feels like a trap. We are attracted by the name since it is common for traditionalists to refer to ourselves as traditional Catholics. We expect to find like-minded people here. Instead we find a lot of people who come across as hostile to tradition and traditionalists. And these people gang up on us, bait us, shut down our discussions and get us banned.

I am not saying that this is what happens here, just that it is common for traditionalists to perceive it this way. I see the complaints that are made elsewhere and this is a recurring theme. Obviously people who perceive their experience like this are going to have a lot of negative feelings that interfere with their ability to participate productively in discussions.

I am reasonably sure that the people arguing with us trads are coming with their own negative perceptions and feelings. I suspect that is more important for me to listen to them and learn about this than to learn fascinating tidbits about the development of liturgy. (Although I suppose I could learn both.) Maybe we all need to come up with some sort of personal mission statement. Here is mine:

My real name is Jayne. I am a traditionalist. I am not here to fight with people. I accept the authority of the Pope and I accept those in union with him as my fellow Catholics. I am OK with people disagreeing with my personal opinions as long as you follow Church teaching. I am willing to listen to you and I will do my best to understand you. I am willing to accept criticism and to be self-critical. I refuse to treat this forum as a battle between an “us” and a “them”.
 
Thanks for your posts on here Brother JR. I have experienced similar attitudes on here, other boards and in some dealings with some members of the Pius X society. I can see where you are coming from and much of what you say and do is rooted in your Franciscan ideals. Since I am a Franciscan I can understand where you are coming from and I personally dealt with some of the fights in my own mind during my discernment process.

After my return to the Church I was a very “by the book” type and expected everything to always be that way and got upset when it wasn’t. It was only through time, exposure to Church Fathers, St. Francis and St. Clare that I realized how silly I was being, putting tradition (lower case tradition), my perception of the rules and other things above prayer. Yes if someone is violating serious rules they need to be charitably brought back inline and stuff like that, but I realized I should not be worrying about that during Mass. It was just a distraction.

The more I learned about St. Francis, his humility and perfect obedience, the more I realized it wasn’t about what others were doing, it was about what I was doing during Mass.

Pax et bonum,
Jim OFS
 
I’ve never really fit in anywhere in my life, I guess I’m used to it. I doubt if I fit in here very well. I’m just a round peg in a world with square holes I guess!
Me, too, lol. Maybe somewhere there are three of us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top