How does one fit into this community?

[AndyP2010]

I was taking a bit of a light-hearted dig at myself, but I do get too personally involved with posts sometimes.

However, I also have a fear that often the last word could go to something which is not either the truth or the whole truth. Since there are often many more views than posts in a thread I fear that someone who is new to the faith, or is vulnerable in some way, or is scrupulous, or is suffering could read some posts and be led astray in some way.

This is a temptation that a lot of people fall into and you really are better just walking away. Let me explain why. Think of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins waiting for the bridegroom. The foolish virgins asked to share the lamp oil of the wise virgins because they had run out. Someone explained that the reason the wise virgins refused their request was that the oil was their good works which can’t be shared. In the same way you can’t understand a concept for someone else. Also, two people might have the same understanding but for some reason express it very differently and so end up confusing each other. Only if someone is requesting further information should you try to keep going.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Summorum Pontificum is the document by Benedict XVI that freed up the use of the Extraodinary Form of the Mass, also called the TLM. It is Mass celebrated according the the Missal that was in use prior to 1969 when the Ordinary Form (what we celebrate now) was introduced.

Thanks!

Someome else spoke of the Our Father translated to Klingon…I know I’ve seen it in lolcat. Somewhere.

 

[Denise1957]

You’re misunderstanding me. I don’t mean it that way. Let me try this.

If my brother came to me expressing concern about this, my response would be to tell him that he’s worrying about something that may never happen, because no one has said anything about turning SP around.

Then I would add that even if the pope did do this, which I sincerely doubt will happen, what will worrying do? Popes have the authority to do that.

And again, I would encourage him to put that idea aside, because SP is not being discussed right now.

What he does with my well intended advice is his choice. I’m not controlling anything or anyone.

In your post on this thread regarding SP, you speak in general terms (post # 31). You don’t say anything about Catholics asking you to give them advice about this concern. If I misunderstood, it’s because you did not say that you were referring only to those who sought your advice on the subject at all.

It’s been my experience that those who seek advice on a particular concern would address it to those who share their particular viewpoint, and who would also take them seriously and not dismiss their concerns. I myself am not particularly concerned about SP being overruled, but I have respect for those who do, since I believe that those who have this concern are capable of reasonable deduction.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

In your post on this thread regarding SP, you speak in general terms (post # 31). You don’t say anything about Catholics asking you to give them advice about this concern. If I misunderstood, it’s because you did not say that you were referring only to those who sought your advice on the subject at all.

It’s been my experience that those who seek advice on a particular concern would address it to those who share their particular viewpoint, and who would also take them seriously and not dismiss their concerns. I myself am not particularly concerned about SP being overruled, but I have respect for those who do, since I believe that those who have this concern are capable of reasonable deduction.

I am not sure if anyone is “dismissing” the concern that some have that SP might be overruled. What I hear Brother Jay, and others saying is, in the grand scheme of things, none of us have any power over what will or will not happen, so why get so worked up over it.

Worrying about something that might happen, that I have absolutely no control over, IMHO, is a sure-fire way to destroy my inner peace

 

[coachdennis]

In your post on this thread regarding SP, you speak in general terms (post # 31). You don’t say anything about Catholics asking you to give them advice about this concern. If I misunderstood, it’s because you did not say that you were referring only to those who sought your advice on the subject at all.

It’s been my experience that those who seek advice on a particular concern would address it to those** who share their particular viewpoint, and who would also take them seriously and not dismiss their concerns.**

I myself am not particularly concerned about SP being overruled, but I have respect for those who do, since I believe that those who have this concern are capable of reasonable deduction.

So people never engage with people who do not share their point of view? That’s a real shame, because if two people completely agree on something, one of them is not necessary for the discussion.

Countering a person’s viewpoint or opinion with facts and reality is not dismissing someone’s concern, it is engagement and discussion.

 

[57Bill]

BR. Jay

I don’t know much about SP other than looking at it from the outside. I can’t comment.

Your commentaries are lucid and seem to truly be from your heart and mind through the Holy Spirit. Both your patience and understanding have been tried far too many times from what little I know.

You don’t come across to me as having a personal agenda.

I am coming to better understand why I left the Catholic faith and more importantly I am getting closer to coming back, mainly through your posts and blog. I have face to faces, too with a Deacon and a Priest which help and are in reality where the rubber will meet the road.

John 17:13-19 reminds me of this post.

One can and many are needed to be here. I think you are needed and also I think you do not brand yourself to fit in here.

 

[po18guy]

Worrying about something that might happen, that I have absolutely no control over, IMHO, is a sure-fire way to destroy my inner peace

Amen! Conspiracy theorists are never at peace. Not even truth will calm such pathological fear.

 

[Avila123]

I realize that some people hate me. You should see my emails and the hate mail I get, because I just can’t bring myself to join in the complaining about the Church, be it local or global

This is sad and worrying. I had thought that I had found a safe place to learn and share the faith as there is nothing locally other than Mass on Sunday (although I pray that this will change one day). Whilst some Threads seem to be passionate, I never imagined that it could spill to abuse. I always thought that if one could not agree, one would apologetically withdraw before things spiraled down too far, for fear of damaging someone’s faith (especially if it was someone curiously surfing the Threads). I thought that one aim in joining the Forum should be to support and build each other up? And thus far, this has been my experience.

I can understand people worrying when changes are made e.g. to mass times, liturgies in the church but to complain about the church seems peculiar, because we are the church, so in reality we are complaining about ourselves. Then again, I am discovering that I am seeing or reading things differently, so tend to miss (or never find) the point.

It was also helpful to learn that I am not the only one who is working on shutting out activities and noise before and during mass.

God bless you.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Sometimes, I feel like a fish out of water on this forum and several others too. I have lived in several countries and about 10 dioceses, I think, not to mention religious houses. None of them have been perfect. Some were so far from perfect that I prayed daily to be taken out of there. I remember one situation where I did ask the superior general to please do something about it or to transfer me. But I never told anyone else how I felt about it, just him. He was the only person who had the power to resolve my problem.

The reason that I feel like a fish out of water is because despite the fact that I have lived and worked in very imperfect situations, some of them downright sinful, I never felt the need or the urge to go public with my concerns. I never felt the need or the urge to express my opinion. Of course I had no feelings about things that other people did over there when I was too busy over here. I can’t be in two places at one time. As I told a lady who asked me if I had noticed the short skirt of the girl in front of me at mass. “No, I’m afraid I didn’t. Because I can’t pray unless I close my eyes. With my eyes closed, I can’t see the girl in front of me. So I either look at the girl and don’t pray or I pray and don’t get to see the girl. I wish I could help you, but I can’t.”

I realize that some people hate me. You should see my emails and the hate mail I get, because I just can’t bring myself to join in the complaining about the Church, be it local or global.

It’s not that I’m blind. It has more to do with something that I learned as a novice and I have never forgotten. “I am what I am before God . . . nothing else.” I know that I’m not the Messiah. I know that I’m not a caretaker. I know that I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. So I limit myself to tackling those things that are within my limited abilities and limited intellect.

I feel that I have to share this here, because I’m getting some PMs and emails from people who think that I’m indifferent, because I don’t complain. But I don’t complain because to complain on these forums is not going to solve anything. Unless Pope Francis or my bishop read these, its just not productive. Whereas, I find teaching very productive. When someone comes in with a mistaken idea or a question. That’s a good use of the time on the forum.

I also understand that bishops and popes have very busy lives. I have worked for several bishops. There is no way that they can handle every problem in a diocese. They have to pick and choose. The bishop’s priorities are not always going to be my priorities. However, I accept that, because we’re too different people. What I see as urgent he does not and the other way around. To get him to see things my way, I would have to change him. It’s not my role in life to change who people are. God puts people in our path to challenge us, to enrich our lives, and at times even to make us do penance. If we try to change those folks, we may find that we’re tampering with God’s plan for us.

Maybe it can be considered complaining. I’m not sure. When I find something that I think it’s sooooo serious that the bishop or a religious superior should get involved, I contact that person. But I never tell anyone what I saw or what I perceive to be a concern, except in broad strokes. I may say that I believe there is a problem with how we prepare children for Confirmation. I won’t say that there is a problem with how the following parishes prepare them for Confirmation and then proceed to make a list. If I have such a list, it goes to the bishop.

Am I strange? Am I really as bad a person as a few people say I am? I’m curious. Please be gentle. I’m an old man. :yup:

I have always liked your posts–both in content and tone. I say keep doing what you are doing–it seems reasonable and much more productive and dare I say Christian. From you posts I’ve always thought you were probably a very good person. You are not strange–you may be different but I say you should be glad you are–as Christians we are called to be different. I would not worry about the PM’s or emails. Your approach seems sound to me and it also seems closer to that of the saints I am most familiar with. I would question anyone who would presume to tell you that you are a bad person and I would not lose sleep over it.

I wish you all the best and will pray for you.

The Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Angel_Bradford]

Brother, You are a holy man who has contributed so much to these forums and for anyone to make you feel as you have stated is nothing but the work of the devil.

I hope you continue being the gift from God that you are and know that many more people love you and appreciate what you do.

 

[JustaServant]

BR. Jay

I don’t know much about SP other than looking at it from the outside. I can’t comment.

Your commentaries are lucid and seem to truly be from your heart and mind through the Holy Spirit. Both your patience and understanding have been tried far too many times from what little I know.

You don’t come across to me as having a personal agenda.

I am coming to better understand why I left the Catholic faith and more importantly I am getting closer to coming back, mainly through your posts and blog. I have face to faces, too with a Deacon and a Priest which help and are in reality where the rubber will meet the road.

John 17:13-19 reminds me of this post.

One can and many are needed to be here. I think you are needed and also I think you do not brand yourself to fit in here.

 

[Sirach2]

Dear Brother Jay,

When a group piles on with a vengence, such as with the hate mail you received, it is easy to question, “Am I really THAT bad?” “Are they telling the truth about me?” “What is my next move?” It is especially virulent when it comes in masses all at the same time.

Been there wearing those very shoes recently. Then comes the Holy Spirit to give us comfort and remind us that the “Accuser of the brethren” is none other than the enemy trying to despoil the many good works you have undertaken. Saints have dubbed him the *abomination of desolation. *May Our Blessed Lord send you assurance and comfort and strengthen you interiorly against these insidious attacks.

 

[po18guy]

Dear Brother Jay,

When a group piles on with a vengence, such as with the hate mail you received, it is easy to question, “Am I really THAT bad?” “Are they telling the truth about me?” “What is my next move?” It is especially virulent when it comes in masses all at the same time.

Been there wearing those very shoes recently. Then comes the Holy Spirit to give us comfort and remind us that the “Accuser of the brethren” is none other than the enemy trying to despoil the many good works you have undertaken. Saints have dubbed him the *abomination of desolation. *May Our Blessed Lord send you assurance and comfort and strengthen you interiorly against these insidious attacks.

Brother JR is in excelent company.

John 15:18-19

18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.[a] 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

 

[ProVobis]

Summorum Pontificum is the document by Benedict XVI that freed up the use of the Extraodinary Form of the Mass, also called the TLM. It is Mass celebrated according the the Missal that was in use prior to 1969 when the Ordinary Form (what we celebrate now) was introduced.

More specifically the SP allows any priest to use the 1962 liturgical books for the Mass and sacraments. There was a transition Mass (national language, new communion formula, hymns, etc.) used between 1964 and 1969.

 

[LiseTravis]

Brother JR, you are a blessing to this forum. I hope you are reporting hateful messages to the mods.

 

[JReducation]

Brother JR, you are a blessing to this forum. I hope you are reporting hateful messages to the mods.

Thank you for your kind words. It’s really important that we always remember that we’re blessings to each other, even when we’re pains in the butt. A pain in the butt may be a great opportunity to practice the virtue of patience or to rescue a soul out of Purgatory.

Brother JR is in excelent company.

I have always liked the quote. When I became superior that quote inspired me to choose my motto for my letterhead. “Deus eligit stultus.”

Brother, You are a holy man

No, not really; but thanks for the vote of confidence. I’m a traveler like everyone else. I do believe that the way to heaven is a wide highway with many lanes. We’re not all in the same lane. It’s important to remember that, especially when we discuss issues and topics that are near and dear to our hearts. One can mistakenly believe that because the other person is in a different lane he or she is not headed in the same direction. That’s when spiritual pride kicks in.

I was reading one of these sites. I’m not sure if they’re sedeprivationist or sedevacantist. They’re so close that I can’t tell the difference unless they say, “I’m a _______”. Anyway, I felt so sorry for the writers. Everything was about what they hated in the Church. Every other sentence was some glib comment. They couldn’t see that the pope, bishops and laity whom they were critiquing are simply in different lanes, but headed in the same direction. They couldn’t see them as sojourners.

I thought, “Where does one begin a dialog with people who have become so hostile?”
who has contributed so much to these forums and for anyone to make you feel as you have stated is nothing but the work of the devil.

I have always liked your posts–both in content and tone. I say keep doing what you are doing–it seems reasonable and much more productive and dare I say Christian. From you posts I’ve always thought you were probably a very good person.

I was a horrible kid. Just ask my siblings. But I think I turned into a rather nice adult and now old man. LOL

You are not strange–you may be different but I say you should be glad you are–as Christians we are called to be different.

I believe that you are right and I also believe that this applies to tradition as well. We should embrace our differences and those of others.

I know that I’m different from other religious. We wear a habit everywhere. If we can’t wear the long tunic, we wear what is called a “work habit”. It’s a short tunic that stops just below the pants pocket, like a long shirt. It’s the same color and fabric as the long habit. It even has a cowl. If that’s not possible, then a grey clerical shirt with a Roman Collar.

We pray the LOTH using the breviary of 1962. One of our brothers is a priest. He knows the EF and likes to celebrate it. I give him permission to do so on most major holy days, except Easter, Franciscan solemnities and Christmas.

The Franciscan solemnities are not in the 1962 missal. You have to take the mass as is and celebrate it as a high mass. But it does not really have the proper readings and prayers, because those feasts are not on the Church calendar or are minor feasts. For us, the Solemnity of the Stigmata, Sep 17 is up there with the Exaltation of the Holy Cross. Because the year that it happened, it fell on the Exaltation of the Holy Cross. The Solemnity of St. Francis is a two day affair that mimics Good Friday and Easter Sunday. It’s not in the missal that way, but it is in the new Roman-Franciscan Missal.

The Seraphic Missal was abolished by Pope Paul VI. It had all of our feasts for the last 800 years in there, but they’re gone. That’s fine with us. Whatever the Holy Father wants to do, we accept. That’s also an 800 year tradition. Some Traditionalists have tried to get us excited about this “injustice” (observe quotation marks). We keep saying, “There is no injustice here. After the Holy Spirit the pope is the next ranking superior of the Franciscan family, then St. Francis and St. Clare.” People have a hard time with this calmness and think that we put our head in the sand or hung up our brains when we came in the door. No we did neither. We’re just different.

 

[JReducation]

This is sad and worrying. I had thought that I had found a safe place to learn and share the faith as there is nothing locally other than Mass on Sunday (although I pray that this will change one day). Whilst some Threads seem to be passionate, I never imagined that it could spill to abuse.

I have found that there are three things about which people get very passionate about and for which they’re willing to kill: politics, religion, and pets. As you become more familiar with the world cyber Catholicism (strange term), you’ll find that the anonymity of the internet allows people to set aside their inhibitions. It has the same effect as too much alcohol.

I always thought that if one could not agree, one would apologetically withdraw before things spiraled down too far, for fear of damaging someone’s faith (especially if it was someone curiously surfing the Threads). I thought that one aim in joining the Forum should be to support and build each other up?

That is certainly the intent of those who own the forums.

It was also helpful to learn that I am not the only one who is working on shutting out activities and noise before and during mass.

Good gravy, no. We lend our one and only priest to the local parish on weekends so we have to go there for mass. That’s fine. We love it. It’s a great parish. The folks range from newborn to 100 yrs old. The church sits 800 and there are 7 packed masses each Sunday. There are always about 150 to go to confession on Saturday and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament three times a week. One morning for the old folks. Older people don’t sleep as much. They like to go early. One late afternoon for adults returning home from work and one evening for Life Teen and their parents. Each of these lasts about 2 hours and there are about 100 people at any one time.

However, because it is such a vibrant parish, it’s also a growing parish. The old church no longer worked. What was going to be the parish hall was outfitted to be a church until the actual church is built. They did a great job. It’s pretty. But it still looks like an auditorium, except for the sanctuary, which is very nice.

I think that combination of large numbers, the building which is not sound proof, because there is no carpeting, and the style of the space, it lends itself to chitter chatter. It’s all harmless, just people asking each other how their liver is doing and sharing about how many kidney stones they passed this week or how lovely their grandchildren are. I’m sure that Jesus gets a good chuckle to see that we reach a certain age when we’re proud to pass more stones than the next guy in the parish.

So, it’s just annoying. But I figure that I can put up with annoying. You won’t believe the number of souls that I’ve liberated from Purgatory. :yup:

Amen! Conspiracy theorists are never at peace. Not even truth will calm such pathological fear.

Of course not. They’re always hypervigilant.

 

[ProVobis]

The Seraphic Missal was abolished by Pope Paul VI. It had all of our feasts for the last 800 years in there, but they’re gone. That’s fine with us. Whatever the Holy Father wants to do, we accept. That’s also an 800 year tradition.

BrJR, you could have told us. We could have gathered a petition and have Agatha Christie sign it.

 

[JReducation]

BrJR, you could have told us. We could have gathered a petition and have Agatha Christie sign it.

Absolutely not. Franciscans do not allow petitions on our behalf. Look at the mess that radical Traditionalists have created for the Franciscans of the Immaculate, to the point that the friars are now upset with the radical Traditionalists and have put out a public statement that can be summarized in on acronym. MYOB.

Besides, I really would prefer to have someone like Tolstoy sign my petitions. I like his work better the Christie.

 

[severus68]

Sometimes, I feel like a fish out of water on this forum and several others too. I have lived in several countries and about 10 dioceses, I think, not to mention religious houses. None of them have been perfect. Some were so far from perfect that I prayed daily to be taken out of there. I remember one situation where I did ask the superior general to please do something about it or to transfer me. But I never told anyone else how I felt about it, just him. He was the only person who had the power to resolve my problem.

The reason that I feel like a fish out of water is because despite the fact that I have lived and worked in very imperfect situations, some of them downright sinful, I never felt the need or the urge to go public with my concerns. I never felt the need or the urge to express my opinion. Of course I had no feelings about things that other people did over there when I was too busy over here. I can’t be in two places at one time. As I told a lady who asked me if I had noticed the short skirt of the girl in front of me at mass. “No, I’m afraid I didn’t. Because I can’t pray unless I close my eyes. With my eyes closed, I can’t see the girl in front of me. So I either look at the girl and don’t pray or I pray and don’t get to see the girl. I wish I could help you, but I can’t.”

I realize that some people hate me. You should see my emails and the hate mail I get, because I just can’t bring myself to join in the complaining about the Church, be it local or global.

It’s not that I’m blind. It has more to do with something that I learned as a novice and I have never forgotten. “I am what I am before God . . . nothing else.” I know that I’m not the Messiah. I know that I’m not a caretaker. I know that I’m not the sharpest needle in the sewing basket. So I limit myself to tackling those things that are within my limited abilities and limited intellect.

I feel that I have to share this here, because I’m getting some PMs and emails from people who think that I’m indifferent, because I don’t complain. But I don’t complain because to complain on these forums is not going to solve anything. Unless Pope Francis or my bishop read these, its just not productive. Whereas, I find teaching very productive. When someone comes in with a mistaken idea or a question. That’s a good use of the time on the forum.

I also understand that bishops and popes have very busy lives. I have worked for several bishops. There is no way that they can handle every problem in a diocese. They have to pick and choose. The bishop’s priorities are not always going to be my priorities. However, I accept that, because we’re too different people. What I see as urgent he does not and the other way around. To get him to see things my way, I would have to change him. It’s not my role in life to change who people are. God puts people in our path to challenge us, to enrich our lives, and at times even to make us do penance. If we try to change those folks, we may find that we’re tampering with God’s plan for us.

Maybe it can be considered complaining. I’m not sure. When I find something that I think it’s sooooo serious that the bishop or a religious superior should get involved, I contact that person. But I never tell anyone what I saw or what I perceive to be a concern, except in broad strokes. I may say that I believe there is a problem with how we prepare children for Confirmation. I won’t say that there is a problem with how the following parishes prepare them for Confirmation and then proceed to make a list. If I have such a list, it goes to the bishop.

Am I strange? Am I really as bad a person as a few people say I am? I’m curious. Please be gentle. I’m an old man. :yup:

Dear Brother JR,

I have learnt a lot from your posts. You post with such charity and your life consists of such good work that I can only imagine that those who send you hate mail and send you negative PMs must be unhappy people, frustrated with their inability to control matters.

People forget that Christ taught love - love for God and love for others. Some focus only on the rules which mean nothing without the love that Christ taught. You have that love in abundance. God bless you and give you strength.

You are in my prayers Brother.