How does Original Sin work?

[grannymh]

Axiom 2 is a bit of a puzzle because it directly refers to Adam who is not always accepted as a real person at the dawn of human history.

Axiom 2.
2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human, that is, Adam. Genesis 2: 15-17

My preferred approach is to look at Adam’s human nature. Fictional or real, Adam ended up with a wounded human nature like our own human nature at our conception. We still receive our own personal complete rational spiritual soul which animates our material body (CCC 363-365), but our human nature per se is dented.

Adam’s voluntary Original Sin turned into a disaster for his natural descendants. God apparently did not throw humankind out with the dirty water. John 3: 16-17 Adam and Eve were immediately deprived of their Original State of Holiness. (CCC 399) Their own human nature is wounded. The Catholic description is that Adam and Eve’s human nature is now deprived of Original Holiness and Justice. Human nature is not totally corrupted.

It is the Incarnation, when the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity rescues humankind. God now interacts with each very special individual. The Divine Jesus teaches crowds of people. He cures 10 lepers. The picture of Jesus as the Good Shepherd holding the individual lamb in His arms illustrates the purpose of Jesus on earth. With voluntary Crucifixion, Jesus, assuming human nature, enables each lamb to turn back to the arms of the almighty Creator. “Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace erases Original Sin…” (CCC 405)

“Like a shepherd He feeds His flock; in His arms He gathers the lambs,”
Isaiah 40:11

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Originally Posted by simpleas forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Every human is made in the image and likeness of God, there is a relationship.

Of course you are welcome to your opinions.

My opinion is that I cannot imagine God giving us the capacity to share in His life and then He makes this capacity inoperable for the relationship purpose.

And you are welcome to your own opinions of course also.
Though I suggest that the Church clearly taught explicitly for at lest the last 1000 years that babies are born exactly in the way you deny above.
Though its a bit strange to say that he makes a capacity “inoperable” which sounds somewhat mechanical. If the angels decide not to communicate with me (and I surely have passive capacities for receiving such communication) does that mean tsuch capacities are rendered “inoperable”. It simply means the angels do not wish to make their presence directly known. It would be a pure gift if they did. Why is this “privation” so evil so bad, so unjust? It isn’t.

Its the simple truth of Christianity that fullness of individual life is a gift requiring relationship with others. Yet it is not necessarily painful not to have it especially if the capacity is unknown.

Of course once we have had it and lost it through our own personal fault, then the will burns even in “paradise” as Aquinas would say.

Thank God that God is not limited to the limits of our own imaginations.

BTW was there any reason you didn’t respond to my queries re your “3 axioms”?
Are they just your own personal hypothesis?

 

[grannymh]

BTW was there any reason you didn’t respond to my queries re your “3 axioms”?
Are they just your own personal hypothesis?

The wording of the three axioms is mine.

1. God as Creator exists. Genesis 1: 1
2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human, that is, Adam. Genesis 2: 15-17
3. Every individual human, that is Adam, has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator. Genesis 3: 11-12

If you wish to remove the challenging Scripture quotes, you may certainly do so. That way, it will be easier to spot basic foundational Catholic teachings. 1. is the beginning of the Apostles’ Creed. 2. is from CCC 366. 3. is from CCC 1730.

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The wording of the three axioms is mine.

1. God as Creator exists. Genesis 1: 1
2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human, that is, Adam. Genesis 2: 15-17
3. Every individual human, that is Adam, has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator. Genesis 3: 11-12

If you wish to remove the challenging Scripture quotes, you may certainly do so. That way, it will be easier to spot basic foundational Catholic teachings. 1. is the beginning of the Apostles’ Creed. 2. is from CCC 366. 3. is from CCC 1730.

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Ah, its your own hypothesis then.
I think I prefer the Church’s view, where the reality of evil is a central axiom - one which you have perhaps overlooked.

 

[grannymh]

Ah, its your own hypothesis then.
I think I prefer the Church’s view, where the reality of evil is a central axiom - one which you have perhaps overlooked.

One needs to first understand the Goodness of God in order to understand the evil of Original Sin.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

One needs to first understand the Goodness of God in order to understand the evil of Original Sin.

Correct, your axioms contain the God bit but nothing about human deprivations and why they are problematic re the God bit. That is what OS was “invented” to explain.

 

[fhansen]

One needs to first understand the Goodness of God in order to understand the evil of Original Sin.

I think the two go hand in hand. What drove me to seek God seriously was the suspicion that somethin’ wasn’t quite right with the world-including me! And the doctrine of OS was the only thing that made some sense. It postulates that the world is broken, wrong, not as it “should be” in some basic way. It explains why humans aren’t always so comfortable with the truth, why we misrepresent the truth in a myriad of ways. And why, relatedly, pride and self-righteousness play such huge roles here-along with shame. It explains the “anomaly of sin”. It suggests that there was an innocence once had, and now lost.

But in order for this to be true, I also need to have a sense that goodness exists which opposes and contrasts with the evil that I experience. While I also experience general goodness here on earth, I must sense that a higher Good, with a higher standard, exists that I don’t observe in my immediate environs. A firm recognition of and admittance to the existence of evil drives us to find its antidote, the good-or it should do so at least.

Anyway, IMO the first question that we and the OP should ask isn’t, ‘Is Original Sin fair?’ But instead should be, ‘Does Original Sin exist?’ Does the doctrine accurately reflect the reality of the world I live in? Once I acknowledge that something ain’t quite right then I have to look for a way to deal with it. I don’t even have control over my own existence so the question regarding the fairness of OS is one that can be addressed later-right now I just need the truth! That’s the starting point for the OP’s question IMO.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I think the two go hand in hand. What drove me to seek God seriously was the suspicion that somethin’ wasn’t quite right with the world-including me! And the doctrine of OS was the only thing that made some sense. It postulates that the world is broken, wrong, not as it “should be” in some basic way. It explains why humans aren’t always so comfortable with the truth, why we misrepresent the truth in a myriad of ways. And why, relatedly, pride and self-righteousness play such huge roles here. It explains the “anomaly of sin”. It suggests that there was an innocence once had, and now lost.

But in order for this to be true, I also need to have a sense that goodness exists which opposes and contrasts with the evil that I experience. While I also experience general goodness here on earth, I must sense that a higher Good, with a higher standard, exists that I don’t observe in my immediate environs. A firm recognition of and admittance to the existence of evil drives us to find its antidote, the good-or it should do so at least.

Anyway, IMO the first question that we and the OP should ask isn’t, ‘Is Original Sin fair?’ But instead should be, ‘Does Original Sin exist?’ Does the doctrine accurately reflect the reality of the world I live in? Once I acknowledge that something ain’t quite right then I have to look for a way to deal with it. I don’t even have control over my own existence so the question regarding the fairness of OS is one that can be addressed later-right now I just need the truth! That’s the starting point for the OP’s question IMO.

Very well put I think.
I like yourself have always felt there is something deeply missing/wrong with life…that is just a given. How is that explainable for those who also have hope in a God who supposedly made this same world.

The Hebrews took these two realities as pretty much self evident givens.
Yet today most people, if they recognize either, do not take the other seriously…let alone balance the two.
I find that profoundly disturbing.

 

[grannymh]

When we start to look at the Goodness of God in the first three real chapters in Genesis, we find that God created Adam separately from the Animal Kingdom. The common sense key to understanding Original Sin is to remember that because of the dramatic shift of Genesis 1:25 to Genesis 1:27, Adam enjoyed the perfect relationship with his Creator God. This friendship relationship is possible because of

Axiom 2.
God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human, that is, Adam. Genesis 2: 15-17

Axiom 3. Every individual human, that is Adam, has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator. Genesis 3: 11-12

Original Sin, in the singular, shattered Adam’s friendship relationship with God. One result is that Adam’s human nature was deprived of the benefit of his former natural human nature friendship relationship with his Creator.

Note: This is why the word “deprived” is used.

From CCC 404
“But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

 

[fhansen]

Very well put I think.
I like yourself have always felt there is something deeply missing/wrong with life…that is just a given. How is that explainable for those who also have hope in a God who supposedly made this same world.

The Hebrews took these two realities as pretty much self evident givens.
Yet today most people, if they recognize either, do not take the other seriously…let alone balance the two.
I find that profoundly disturbing.

I think, to take this a bit further, hopefully not stretching it too far, Adam’s exile was part of his reform, or formation, to see it from a slightly different perspective. It was a necessary ingredient in God’s plan of salvation, which was instituted immediately with the protoevangelium as we know. The exile meant that Adam would now come to experience what deprivation-of God to put it simply-really means. Humanity would, from then on, experience, would literally know, evil along, with good, and begin to have reason to seek and choose the good over the evil.

Jesus gives us a basic central New Covenant precept in John 15:5: “Apart from me you can do nothing.” Adam thought otherwise, that he could do quite well, even better, apart from God. By rejecting God’s authority, by believing a lie over the truth, he had separated himself from God, God was no longer his God; he was his own god. And this is the position humanity finds itself in now, born without knowledge of (faith in), let alone hope in, let alone love for, God. We need to come to learn of our limitations, to accept “the requirements of [our] creaturely status”, something Adam didn’t do as the catechism teaches. Presumably he has by now .

 

[fhansen]

When we start to look at the Goodness of God in the first three real chapters in Genesis, we find that God created Adam separately from the Animal Kingdom. The common sense key to understanding Original Sin is to remember that because of the dramatic shift of Genesis 1:25 to Genesis 1:27, Adam enjoyed the perfect relationship with his Creator God. This friendship relationship is possible because of

Axiom 2.
God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human, that is, Adam. Genesis 2: 15-17

Axiom 3. Every individual human, that is Adam, has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator. Genesis 3: 11-12

Original Sin, in the singular, shattered Adam’s friendship relationship with God. One result is that Adam’s human nature was deprived of the benefit of his former natural human nature friendship relationship with his Creator.

Note: This is why the word “deprived” is used.

From CCC 404
“But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

Yes, and we’re here to come to know, by experience, the truth of those teachings, Revelation informing and working together with our experience and reason. Otherwise they easily tend to remain only words.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I think, to take this a bit further, hopefully not stretching it too far, Adam’s exile was part of his reform, or formation, to see it from a slightly different perspective. It was a necessary ingredient in God’s plan of salvation, which was instituted immediately with the protoevangelium as we know. The exile meant that Adam would now come to experience what deprivation-of God to put it simply-really means. Humanity would, from then on, experience, would literally know, evil along, with good, and begin to have reason to seek and choose the good over the evil.

Jesus gives us a basic central New Covenant precept in John 15:5: “Apart from me you can do nothing.” Adam thought otherwise, that he could do quite well, even better, apart from God. By rejecting God’s authority, by believing a lie over the truth, he had separated himself from God, God was no longer his God; he was his own god. And this is the position humanity finds itself in now, born without knowledge of (faith in), let alone hope in, let alone love for, God. We need to come to learn of our limitations, to accept “the requirements of [our] creaturely status”, something Adam didn’t do as the catechism teaches. Presumably he has by now .

This is sound I think. The punishment is in fact the best loving remedy.

 

[grannymh]

The common sense key to understanding Original Sin is to remember that because of the dramatic shift of Genesis 1:25 to Genesis 1:27, Adam enjoyed the perfect relationship with his Creator God.

Before someone questions the words “perfect relationship with his Creator God.” …

The important emphasis is that Adam’s perfect relationship with his Creator leads to joy eternal in the presence of God as the Beatific Vision in heaven after his time in the Garden of Eden. In our language, our perfect relationship with our Creator God is that we remain in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace gives us "a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us – of making us “perfect,” holy and Christlike " (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

Adam’s State of Original Holiness is not in stone. This State is a sincere friendship relationship with God. Adam must live in submission to the Creator God Who is the only one true God. Because of Genesis 1: 27, Adam can freely yield or not. The demand of submission aka obedience is because there cannot be two first equally supreme super-natural beings at the same time. A tie only works in a sporting event and even then, there can be a process for breaking the tie.

Step one in “How does Original Sin Work?” is that Original Sin destroyed Adam’s sincere friendship relationship with his Creator.

 

[Vico]

The common sense key to understanding Original Sin is to remember that because of the dramatic shift of Genesis 1:25 to Genesis 1:27, Adam enjoyed the perfect relationship with his Creator God.

Before someone questions the words “perfect relationship with his Creator God.” …

The important emphasis is that Adam’s perfect relationship with his Creator leads to joy eternal in the presence of God as the Beatific Vision in heaven after his time in the Garden of Eden. In our language, our perfect relationship with our Creator God is that we remain in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace gives us "a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us – of making us “perfect,” holy and Christlike " (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

Adam’s State of Original Holiness is not in stone. This State is a sincere friendship relationship with God. Adam must live in submission to the Creator God Who is the only one true God. Because of Genesis 1: 27, Adam can freely yield or not. The demand of submission aka obedience is because there cannot be two first equally supreme super-natural beings at the same time. A tie only works in a sporting event and even then, there can be a process for breaking the tie.

Step one in “How does Original Sin Work?” is that Original Sin destroyed Adam’s sincere friendship relationship with his Creator.

And from the Catechism we see that this relationship is prayer and requires humility, which was lost in the willful act of original sin.

2558 “Great is the mystery of the faith!” The Church professes this mystery in the Apostles’ Creed (Part One) and celebrates it in the sacramental liturgy (Part Two), so that the life of the faithful may be conformed to Christ in the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father (Part Three). This mystery, then, requires that the faithful believe in it, that they celebrate it, and that they live from it in a vital and personal relationship with the living and true God. This relationship is prayer.

What Is Prayer?

For me, prayer is a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy.1
Prayer as God’s gift

2559 "Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God."2 But when we pray, do we speak from the height of our pride and will, or “out of the depths” of a humble and contrite heart?3 He who humbles himself will be exalted;4 humility is the foundation of prayer, Only when we humbly acknowledge that "we do not know how to pray as we ought,"5 are we ready to receive freely the gift of prayer. "Man is a beggar before God."6​

1 St. ThéRèse of Lisieux, Manuscrits autobiographiques, C 25r.
2 St. John Damascene, Defide orth. 3,24G 94,1089C.
3 Ps 130:1.
4 Cf. Lk 18:9-14.
5 Rom 8:26.
6 St. Augustine, Sermo 56,6,9L 38,381.

 

[grannymh]

In order to understand how Original Sin works, one first has to understand that Adam and Eve are the first two original humans on planet earth.

This means that one has to set aside the Science of Human Evolution which demands that humans evolved as large indiscriminate, random breeding, humanizing populations over centuries. This is the Evolution Model. The Catholic position is that the human species originated as a population of two. This naturally means that Adam and Eve’s human nature in the State of Original Holiness would be transmitted to their descendants.

The free choice disobedience of Adam had results. The major result is that Adam and Eve immediately lost the grace of Original Holiness (CCC 399) This loss wounded their human nature so that human nature would be transmitted by propagation as being deprived of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace.(CCC 404-406)

The difficult thing is that many, not all, people consider that Original Sin works as God’s unjust punishment. This argument can last for hours. Yes, Adam was punished, but not by God, rather Adam’s own actions punished himself and his spouse Eve. Adam knew the rules, Genesis 2: 15-17, and the punishment connected to disobedience. Still, he chose himself against God by going against the requirements of his human status and “therefore against his own good.” (CCC 398)

Original Sin works by the hands of the first real human person, Adam.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by grannymh

The free choice disobedience of Adam had results. The major result is that Adam and Eve immediately lost the grace of Original Holiness (CCC 399) This loss wounded their human nature so that human nature would be transmitted by propagation as being deprived of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace.(CCC 404-406)

I have difficulty understand how State of Sanctifying Grace is described as the state Adam and Eve were in before sin aka Original Holiness.
To me it is not.
Not all of the gifts are restored via Baptism, for example, we die, we suffer from illness etc.

The difficult thing is that many, not all, people consider that Original Sin works as God’s unjust punishment. This argument can last for hours. Yes, Adam was punished, but not by God, rather Adam’s own actions punished himself and his spouse Eve. Adam knew the rules, Genesis 2: 15-17, and the punishment connected to disobedience. Still, he chose himself against God by going against the requirements of his human status and “therefore against his own good.” (CCC 398)

It is clear from the account in Genesis that the first couple choose to eat from the tree they had been told they should not eat from. for they would die (spiritually and bodily) Yet God does punish them with :

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

 

[grannymh]

I have difficulty understand how State of Sanctifying Grace is described as the state Adam and Eve were in before sin aka Original Holiness.
To me it is not.

In both the State of Original Holiness and the State of Sanctifying Grace, there is our sharing in God’s life. (Genesis 1: 27 & CCC 356) When I think about Original Sin, it gives me a bit of comfort knowing that “Adam had received Original Holiness and Justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.” (CCC 404)

 

[simpleas]

In both the State of Original Holiness and the State of Sanctifying Grace, there is our sharing in God’s life. (Genesis 1: 27 & CCC 356) When I think about Original Sin, it gives me a bit of comfort knowing that “Adam had received Original Holiness and Justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.” (CCC 404)

I must be looking at it differently from you.

 

[Vico]

In order to understand how Original Sin works, one first has to understand that Adam and Eve are the first two original humans on planet earth.

This means that one has to set aside the Science of Human Evolution which demands that humans evolved as large indiscriminate, random breeding, humanizing populations over centuries. This is the Evolution Model. The Catholic position is that the human species originated as a population of two. This naturally means that Adam and Eve’s human nature in the State of Original Holiness would be transmitted to their descendants.

The free choice disobedience of Adam had results. The major result is that Adam and Eve immediately lost the grace of Original Holiness (CCC 399) This loss wounded their human nature so that human nature would be transmitted by propagation as being deprived of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace.(CCC 404-406)

The difficult thing is that many, not all, people consider that Original Sin works as God’s unjust punishment. This argument can last for hours. Yes, Adam was punished, but not by God, rather Adam’s own actions punished himself and his spouse Eve. Adam knew the rules, Genesis 2: 15-17, and the punishment connected to disobedience. Still, he chose himself against God by going against the requirements of his human status and “therefore against his own good.” (CCC 398)

Original Sin works by the hands of the first real human person, Adam.

Don’t forget is it both original holiness and justice that was received and lost.

 

[grannymh]

Don’t forget is it both original holiness and justice that was received and lost.

Thank you.

I often use Original Holiness because many, not all, readers have a hard time understanding Adam’s human nature as it is. For example, there is plenty of misunderstanding about the Preternatural Gifts, the freedom from concupiscence, and mastery of self. Then there is the “dumb Adam” approach to forbidden organic fruit.

Maybe I am wrong, but I keep hoping that if readers learn that Original Holiness is the State of Sanctifying Grace, they will understand the *deprived *State of Sanctifying Grace which is not the same as the State of Mortal Sin.

If we can understand the importance of Original Holiness, then hopefully we could understand the original friendship relationship between Divinity and Humanity and subsequently the Full Divinity of Jesus Christ.

How does Original Sin work?

We will never find the true answer until we learn, understand, and accept the first three sacred chapters of Genesis.