How does the Catholic Church know when a saint reaches heaven?

[ajcstr]

The Apostle Paul makes reference to the saints in the churches in his greetings to the churches. Who is he referring to?

Hopefully we are all saints. The population of saints is not limited to who the Church formally recognizes as a saint.

 

[Wannano]

Hopefully we are all saints. The population of saints is not limited to who the Church formally recognizes as a saint.

Exactly.

 

[Della]

Hopefully we are all saints. The population of saints is not limited to who the Church formally recognizes as a saint.

Yes indeed, which is why the Church celebrates the Feast of All Saints every Nov. 2. :yup:

The saints recognized by the Church aren’t necessarily more exalted than unknown saints, of course. Rather, they are merely recognized for their witness to Christ and added to the canon of recognized saints so we can look to them for their prayers and model our lives after their saintly behavior. That’s the purpose of the canon of saints–not to say, as some seem to think, that they are the ONLY saints in heaven or on earth.

 

[ajcstr]

Yes indeed, which is why the Church celebrates the Feast of All Saints every Nov. 2. :yup:

Excellent point !!

 

[Della]

Oops! All Saints is Nov. 1 (after the Vigil of All Saints or “Hallowed Eve” Oct. 31). The Feast of All Souls is on Nov. 2.

 

[Tommy999]

Exactly.

Hi Wannano,
Just wanted to be clear in my mind that your question was answered.

Are you asking if there are more saints in heaven than just those recognized by the Catholic Church? If so, I think the Catholics who responded (like Della) have answered that question.

… Or are you asserting that there should be no distinction in terms of status and honor between those saints that are recognized by the Catholic Church such as St Francis, St Patrick, St Jerome, and us Christians living today here on earth?

Why I ask…
Like me, my wife is a Protestant. However, she thinks that all Christians here on earth and in heaven are the same in the eyes of God and there should be no preferential treatment towards the “saints” recognized by the Catholic Church and those Christians living on earth, who should also be considered saints, as in the reference to Paul’s greeting in the epistles.

I told her that in my view, some people are more holy/godly than others and are closer to Jesus than I am, which is why it is fine and acceptable in my eyes to look up to the saints and learn and gain inspiration from their example, and even seek their intercession in prayer as our heaven prayer partners if we so choose, although I also pray directly to God in Jesus’ name like she does.

 

[Wannano]

Hi Wannano,
Just wanted to be clear in my mind that your question was answered.

Are you asking if there are more saints in heaven than just those recognized by the Catholic Church? If so, I think the Catholics who responded (like Della) have answered that question.

… Or are you asserting that there should be no distinction in terms of status and honor between those saints that are recognized by the Catholic Church such as St Francis, St Patrick, St Jerome, and us Christians living today here on earth?

Why I ask…
Like me, my wife is a Protestant. However, she thinks that all Christians here on earth and in heaven are the same in the eyes of God and there should be no preferential treatment towards the “saints” recognized by the Catholic Church and those Christians living on earth, who should also be considered saints, as in the reference to Paul’s greeting in the epistles.

I told her that in my view, some people are more holy/godly than others and are closer to Jesus than I am, which is why it is fine and acceptable in my eyes to look up to the saints and learn and gain inspiration from their example, and even seek their intercession in prayer as our heaven prayer partners if we so choose, although I also pray directly to God in Jesus’ name like she does.

I see it like your wife. Jesus is the only perfect example and we are called to follow Him. All others would fail us at some point.

 

[Wesrock]

The Apostle Paul makes reference to the saints in the churches in his greetings to the churches. Who is he referring to?

The term has shifted, at least in English. Saint Paul used the term for all those in the Church. Modern use refers to those part of the Church Triumphant (in Heaven). It’s etymology comes from the Latin for"consecrated" and/or “holy.” The Church recognizes that the word is being used in a different sense than the way Saint Paul used it, but the definition is nominal, not an essential change in theology.

 

[Della]

I see it like your wife. Jesus is the only perfect example and we are called to follow Him.

Certainly Jesus is our perfect example, but that doesn’t exclude others from being perfect, thinking of the Virgin Mary and Christ’s command that we “be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.” This is the Good News–that we are able to gain perfection through Christ. The Church has always taught this with the support of Scripture and the constant teaching of the Church. We can become holy if we desire it and cooperate with God’s grace.

All others would fail us at some point.

I think you would agree, though that those in heaven cannot fail us since they have been perfected in love and are in the very presence of God.

 

[JustaSinner]

Certainly Jesus is our perfect example, but that doesn’t exclude others from being perfect, thinking of the Virgin Mary and Christ’s command that we “be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.” This is the Good News–that we are able to gain perfection through Christ. The Church has always taught this with the support of Scripture and the constant teaching of the Church. We can become holy if we desire it and cooperate with God’s grace.

We are all called to holiness (or, “saintliness”). In fact the Scripture makes clear that we cannot inherit heaven if we do not walk in holiness–Hebrews 12:14 “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord”. However, while we may obtain “perfection” in a broader sense (e.g. victory over the dominion of willful sins, etc.), we do not obtain the immaculate perfections of Christ in this life–as the Scriptures teach. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” and Psalm 143:2 “And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous”, etc.)

As Bernard of Clairvaux said–our righteousness in this life is a “filthy rag” and “mere unrighteousness” when viewed strictly apart from the reckoning of Christ’s infinite merits and righteousness:

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. But what can all our righteousness be before God? Shall it not, according to the prophet, be viewed as a filthy rag: and, if it be strictly judged, shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency ? What, then, shall it be concerning sins, when not even our righteousness itself can answer for itself ? Wherefore, vehemently exclaiming with the prophet, Enter not into judgment with thy servant, O Lord, let us, with all humility, flee to mercy; which alone can save our souls" Feast of All Saints Sermon 1

So we must strive to be conformed to the immaculate righteousness of Christ in every respect in this life, knowing that it is ours even now (or reckoned to us now) through the covering of Christ’s immaculate Blood. Further, while the holiness of our thoughts words and deeds is a “filthy rag” in this life compared to God’s awesome holiness–yet we grow closer and closer to Christ’s immaculate righteousness in thought, word and deed as God progressively sanctifies us .

Finally, immaculate righteousness shall be ours in fullness in heaven–when our every thought, word and deed shall be immaculately pure and holy.

 

[Della]

Our righteousness is not the same thing as obtaining the righteousness of Christ–which can be done in this life by cooperating with God’s grace. It is only with and through God’s grace that we can obtain perfection. That is what St. Bernard meant.

 

[JustaSinner]

Our righteousness is not the same thing as obtaining the righteousness of Christ–which can be done in this life by cooperating with God’s grace. It is only with and through God’s grace that we can obtain perfection. That is what St. Bernard meant.

I would have to differ on that point. Bernard of Clairvaux is speaking in this context to believers who have the righteousness of Christ infused into them–but their good works (in thought, word and deed)–are still tainted by the flesh. This can be shown from a number of internal evidences in this sermon as well as many other passages throughout St. Bernard’s works. St. Bernard is simply following the tradition of St. Augustine and others who affirmed that [immaculate] perfection is not obtained in this life.

Augustine writes against the error of the Pelagians who believed that perfection/sinlessness was possible in this life in his work On Man’s Perfection in Righteousness.

Here are just a few examples of Augustine comments on the imperfect infused state of righteousness in all believers in this life–citing to the Lord’s Prayer, Psalm 143:2 (the same passage cited in the prior quote I gave from Bernard of Clairvaux–Psalm 143:2), and several other Scriptures contra the teaching of perfectionism:

And in this prayer [the Lord’s Prayer], unless we choose to be contentious, there is placed before our view a mirror of sufficient brightness in which to behold the life of the righteous, who live by faith, and finish their course, although they are not without sin. Therefore they say, Forgive us, because they have not yet arrived at the end of their course…

For while there remains any remnant of the lust of the flesh, to be kept in check by the rein of continence, God is by no means loved with all one’s soul. For the flesh does not lust without the soul; although it is the flesh which is said to lust, because the soul lusts carnally. In that perfect state * the just man shall live absolutely without any sin, since there will be in his members no law warring against the law of his mind, Romans 7:23 but wholly will he love God, with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his mind Matthew 22:37 which is the first and chief commandment. For why should not such perfection be enjoined on man, although in this life nobody may attain to it?(Chp. 8 (19)) *

…the very sons of God even, when compared with themselves as they shall hereafter become in their eternal perfection, are good in such a way that they still remain also evil. Although I should not have dared to say this of them (for who would be so bold as to call them evil who have God for their Father?) unless the Lord had Himself said: If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask Him? Matthew 7:11 Of course, by applying to them the words, your Father, He proved that they were already sons of God; and yet at the same time He did not hesitate to say that they were evil.
…

“Who will boast that he has a pure heart?” is a suitable sequel to the preceding sentence, “whenever a righteous king sits upon the throne.” Proverbs 20:8 For how great soever ever a man’s righteousness may be, he ought to reflect and think, lest there should be found something blameworthy, which has escaped indeed his own notice, when that righteous King shall sit upon His throne, whose cognizance no sins can possibly escape, not even those of which it is said, Who understands his transgressions? When, therefore, the righteous King shall sit upon His throne, . . . who will boast that he has a pure heart? Or who will boldly say that he is pure from sin? Proverbs 20:8-9 Except perhaps those who wish to boast of their own righteousness, and not glory in the mercy of the Judge Himself. (Chp 13 (32, 33))

But our opponent does not tell us how, in accordance with his views, we ought to understand the scripture, For in Your sight shall no man living be justified [Psalm 143:2]. The meaning of these words is plain enough, receiving as it does additional light from the preceding clause: Enter not, says the Psalmist, into judgment with Your servant, for in Your sight shall no man living be justified. It is judgment which he fears, therefore he desires that mercy which triumphs over judgment. James 2:13 For the meaning of the prayer, Enter not into judgment with Your servant, is this: Judge me not according to Yourself, who art without sin; for in Your sight shall no man living be justified. This without doubt is understood as spoken of the present life, while the predicate shall not be justified has reference to that perfect state of righteousness which belongs not to this life.(Chapter 17 (38))

JustaSinner–I’ll try to follow up in a week or so

 

[Della]

Let’s not take the thread off topic. I’ll just say that, of course we can be infused with grace and still be tainted with our own desires, etc. Still, that doesn’t preclude anyone from attaining holiness. I cite St. Therese of Lisieux for a good example of this.

Now, back to the OP’s topic. :tiphat:

 

[PJM]

On a different thread, a Catholic whom I highly respect made the following comment:

"We shouldn’t presume that someone inside the Church is saved either. We do not have a clue who is saved, except maybe when the Church canonizes a saint because that is an official Church declaration that the person is in heaven… “”

Since I didn’t want to risk hijacking that thread in a different direction, I decided to start a new one and ask my question.

My reasoning, known to be quite fallible:
I always presumed that we could “hope” someone is in heaven, we could “feel” they are in heaven, we could “assume” by their faith and how they lived their life that they are in heaven, or we could justify in our minds why we think they made heaven, or we can pray they made it to heaven, but we do not know beyond the shadow of a doubt that anyone is in heaven.

Just curious how the Catholic Church definitively knows that a person reached heaven, to the point they can canonize that person, especially when Purgatory is also a possibility for him or her, according to my limited understanding of Catholicism.

Question:
Does the Holy Spirit give the Pope a word of wisdom, is it voted on by the Council of Bishops or some other Church body, or is there some other process that gives the power to the Catholic Church to discern or otherwise determine that someone has reached heaven to the point that they can make a declaration about it?

If so, I would appreciate it if someone can help explain how that process works to this respectful non-Catholic? Much appreciated, as always.

HERE MY FRIEND IS AN IN-DEPTH EXPLANATION OF THE PROCESS

catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-process-of-becoming-a-saint.html

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks for that, Patrick. It was very helpful, especially with the real life example of St Edith Stein and how the process worked for her.

I also believe there are saints in heaven who have not been recognized by the Church here on earth and who may never be recognized on earth, especially if their deeds are unknown to the Church Militant, but were noticed by God and the Church Triumphant.

Theoretical Example:
A Christian soldier who selflessly gives his life to save an army chaplain and other soldiers In battle, or let’s say he saves a group of children, nuns, or priests in a monastery — only for them to subsequently die later in the day before they are able to tell anyone about what the soldier did.

 

[Della]

Thanks for that, Patrick. It was very helpful, especially with the real life example of St Edith Stein and how the process worked for her.

I also believe there are saints in heaven who have not been recognized by the Church here on earth and who may never be recognized on earth, especially if their deeds are unknown to the Church Militant, but were noticed by God and the Church Triumphant.

Theoretical Example:
A Christian soldier who selflessly gives his life to save an army chaplain and other soldiers In battle, or let’s say he saves a group of children, nuns, or priests in a monastery — only for them to subsequently die later in the day before they are able to tell anyone about what the soldier did.

The saints the Church chooses to honor showed heroic sanctity, all right, but that could be as simple as living with an unbelieving spouse who constantly picks on you for your faith. As you say, it’s what God sees in our hearts, as well as our actions that matter.

At the beginning of Mass we ask God’s forgiveness “for what we have done and what we have failed to do.” Just doing what we are supposed to do, especially in the teeth of oppression, even if, or perhaps especially if, it doesn’t require dying is just as important as doing something outwardly heroic, and can be infinitely harder. It takes more virtue to love when we aren’t loved than to wait for an opportunity to make some grand gesture, yes?

 

[Tommy999]

The saints the Church chooses to honor showed heroic sanctity, all right, but that could be as simple as living with an unbelieving spouse who constantly picks on you for your faith. As you say, it’s what God sees in our hearts, as well as our actions that matter.

At the beginning of Mass we ask God’s forgiveness “for what we have done and what we have failed to do.” Just doing what we are supposed to do, especially in the teeth of oppression, even if, or perhaps especially if, it doesn’t require dying is just as important as doing something outwardly heroic, and can be infinitely harder. It takes more virtue to love when we aren’t loved than to wait for an opportunity to make some grand gesture, yes?

Hi Della, and thanks for the reply. Yes, I would agree that for most of us, our focus should be on “doing what we are supposed to do” in terms of the small things, because those small things surely add up over time.

My only point in my previous post was to try to illustrate how the Church here on earth may not be aware of all the saints that God regards as saints in heaven. However, I have no qualms with how the Catholic determines if someone is a saint and I think it is a logical and methodical process that makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[PJM]

Thanks for that, Patrick. It was very helpful, especially with the real life example of St Edith Stein and how the process worked for her.

I also believe there are saints in heaven who have not been recognized by the Church here on earth and who may never be recognized on earth, especially if their deeds are unknown to the Church Militant, but were noticed by God and the Church Triumphant.

Theoretical Example:
A Christian soldier who selflessly gives his life to save an army chaplain and other soldiers In battle, or let’s say he saves a group of children, nuns, or priests in a monastery — only for them to subsequently die later in the day before they are able to tell anyone about what the soldier did.

Thank you, the VAST and SUPER-MAJORITY of “saints” [small “s”] are formally unrecognized which is precisely WHY the RCC celebrates “all saints Day” to commemorate them.

 

[Della]

Hi Della, and thanks for the reply. Yes, I would agree that for most of us, our focus should be on “doing what we are supposed to do” in terms of the small things, because those small things surely add up over time.

My only point in my previous post was to try to illustrate how the Church here on earth may not be aware of all the saints that God regards as saints in heaven. However, I have no qualms with how the Catholic determines if someone is a saint and I think it is a logical and methodical process that makes a lot of sense to me.

Yes, this is exactly it. It’s really a very natural thing, if people care to think about it. After all, how many times have people said that they could sense a deceased loved one “looking down on” them or “helping” them or “approving of” something they’ve done? We are immortal beings who want that connection to those who have passed away, because they are still alive, not dead like a chopped down tree. Jesus talked about it when he was discussing the resurrection of the dead with the Sadducees, who disputed this teaching. Jesus said quite plainly that the dead are alive not dead. The Church recognizes this and celebrates it through All Saints Day, but also by elevating some to the canon of saints for veneration, and as models for all of us. :yup: They don’t come between us and God they intercede for us. I think it’s a beautiful teaching–one that ought to give us hope in the glory that will come to all the faithful.