How does the doctrine of the Trinity help us?

[FightingFat]

St. Thomas begins again from Augustine who saw the image of the Trinity in catching the soul in the act of knowing and loving itself. St. Thomas binds his ideas of the Trinity and of the image tightly around each other and, starting from the perspective of Trinitarian doctrine, he demonstrates how the procession of the Son did not come about from a knowledge derived from creatures; instead God engenders His Word through knowing Himself. In the same way the Spirit does not flow from the love that God bears for creatures, but as the Love God has for Himself, the Love of the Father and the Son for their own goodness. (This idea is recalled in an entirely different context, by the Vatican I constitution Dei Filius). This does not mean that knowledge and love of creatures is absent from the begetting of the Word and the procession of the Holy Spirit; they are part of the Trinitarian processions as these processions are “…the cause and rationale of creation”.

Next, St. Thomas considers his ideas of Trinity and image from the standpoint of human beings. We can see that our interior world and the love we experience are conditioned by the object that specifies them in the human mind the concept of a stone is specifically different from that of a horse, while also the love regarding each of them is specifically different.

St. Thomas combines these two perspectives and is thus able to show that the image of God in human beings begins from knowledge of God and from love of God because this is what makes for the most expressive articulation of the Trinitarian processions. This develops St. Augustine’s theme of the soul’s self knowledge and self love, drawing into it the knowledge and love of God, a theme St. Thomas explained in greater depth in his work De veritate. Here he elucidates how the loving God allows us to be divinised: assimilated or transformed into what we know and love (i.e. God). The image theory of St. Thomas attempts to explain from a human perspective exactly what the theory of the missions showed from a divine one.

I hope this has offered some ideas about how we see God as Unity and Trinity. I especially like St. Athanasius’ ideas and the way he explains the relationship between the Divine Persons. The idea of a Son, eternally begotten, i.e. eternally with His Father is an extraordinarily powerful idea and one that lends itself to much reflection and prayer-- The Father, His eternal Son who was always with Him and the Spirit; the love that binds them together.

You are right to question what the language means here. This has always been one of the main points for reflection; are we talking about una essentia, tres personae, or tres hypostaseis, mia ousia?? As I said at the beginning, I will leave you with some investigation of your own to do! Suffice to say that Augustine’s highest image of the Trinity was remembering–understanding–loving, activities which exist in every operation of the mind.

You would like Augustine Hypatia, Muslims do; he allows you to visualise unity and diversity. For Muslims and Jews, Christians have watered down and qualified God, but Augustine shows how Christians take the She’ma seriously, but the continuation of revelation, the New Testament and the Creed are taken equally seriously without compromising any of them–Muslims need not give up any of God’s unity in embracing Christian understanding of God.

And I still feel the need to ask what I assume is a somewhat silly question from a Christian standpoint: why three? It seems random. Is this a case of “that’s just the way it is”. Is there a reason it is three in particular? If it is a master-metaphor of how community finds its root in God, wouldn’t more be better (assuming you wanted to go that route at all)?

Extremely rational question, and indeed one which I recall asking myself! Why is three the magic number?

Primarily for me, The Father gives the Son and through Him, the Spirit-- you can’t reduce these three activities to one activity. Each person or activity of God is revealed to us through history. The three are evident through the Old Testament, but can only be clearly seen through the lens of the Incarnation; i.e. it is Jesus who reveals the nature of God to us, which is consistant with Christian understanding of Jesus as the Logos, or Word of God.

Another similar question I have pondered is why the Trinity is patriarchal, but did you know that Trinitaes is a feminine noun in Latin?

 

[matahari]

Hi Hypatia, I will try to answer your question about why there are three persons in One God. God is , at heart, a family. Every human being has been created in the image and likeness of God. God wishes to see the image of His Beloved Son in all humanity. Jesus and his mother Mary and foster father Joseph were a little Trinity on earth. It is the plan of God that all mankind who will be saved are to be incorporated into the life of God himself. Thats something to ponder ! AMLucia

 

[always_gr8ful]

So if I understand you – “The Dogma is not simple to comprehend, but it is easy to state and accept as an act of faith” – this just seems to suggest that the doctrine is irrational but you believe it anyway because it is a faith statement about things we can’t comprehend. And, drawing off your very last sentence, that it provides you some grammatical rules about what you can and can’t say, even if it is not clear how they all fit together: e.g., Jesus is God; The Father is God; Jesus is not the Father; God is One.

But why would you want to say those things (at least in such a way that you really mean them) to start with? Why couldn’t Christians say the language about Father and Son was a metaphor…like God sitting on a throne (which both the Bible and Qur’an says, but neither Christians nor Muslims take it literally for the most part…it is poetic or mythic language). And then you avoid the whole confused mess. Right?

Even after being corrected, are you saying Christians say God is One again?

I might be wrong, but normally when someone is corrected, they don’t continue the assumption. Jesus is God because He said He was. He didn’t say “I’m a metaphor.”
He said if you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father. God in the flesh, no other explanation.
Allah has no son. Allah is one.
Sorry, but I sense a lack of sincerity on your part. “Christians say God is One” is perpetuating a lie, imo.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Ultimately, the mystery and doctrine of the Trinity means that the God who created us, who sustains us, who will judge us and give us eternal life is not a totally transcendent God utterly removed from us, rather He is a God of absolute proximity, communicated in flesh, in history, within our human family. He is a God who is present in the spiritual depths of our being and apex of our unfolding history as the source of enlightenment and community.

I really liked that, FightingFat.

Hypatia, the Triune persons of God was only finally revealed when Jesus Christ came to earth and spoke freely of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Interestingly, of all the many names of Allah, “Father” is not one of them. “Father” speaks to us of our relationship with God in that He is our Father and we are His children - not just some far off ruler of the universe.

It is with the second Person - the Son - that was born to earth as the man Jesus Christ. He always spoke of himself as the Son of the Father in absolute and exclusive terms. “No one knows the Son but the Father and no one knows the Father but the Son” (Matthew 11.27). “Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” (John 4.23). He came from the Father into the world, he was to leave it and return to the Father (John 16.28). He now sits at the right hand of God the Father, and yes, I believe that is literal. He can do that and still be One with the Father just as when two are married, they become one flesh (not literal).

The Holy Spirit was sent by the Son from the Father, he proceeds from the Father, and he bears witness to the Son (John 15.26). The Father would send him in the Son’s name and he would bring to remembrance all that the Son had taught his disciples (John 14.26).

All these quotations are from Jesus Christ himself, the great Word of the Father who was in the beginning, was with God, and is God (John 1.1). He is constantly called the Son of God in the Bible, by no less than the Father himself who twice spoke from heaven and declared “This is my beloved Son” (Matthew 4.17, 17.5).

I hope this helps to answer your original question “How does the doctrine of the Trinity help us?”

 

[grandfather]

Another similar question I have pondered is why the Trinity is patriarchal, but did you know that Trinitaes is a feminine noun in Latin?

God is patriarchal in relation to us. The most fundamental essence of our being and all creation is feminine. It is receptivity. We receive our very existance. So Jesus calls Himself the bridegroom. His Church is His bride. He marries, becomes one with her. She is His beloved. In her He deposits the seeds of eternal life, the fecund truths of faith that bring us to eternal life.

This is not directly related to the OPs question, but possibly helpful.

 

[grandfather]

Even after being corrected, are you saying Christians say God is One again?
.

God is one,

three IN one,

three divine persons with one nature.

 

[Verisimilitude]

A man may be a father (to a child), a son (to his father), and an inspiration (to other people). In the same way the Trinity is to humanity. The Old Testament gives indication:

Genesis 18
Birth of Isaac Promised
1Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, …

The Trinitarian doctrine as revealed to humanity and realized by Christ is the greatest of them all since it brings us back to the relationship humanity had before the Fall; knowing God in a fuller way and personally. We are not slaves of God though He is our Master and Creator- we are His children and He inspires us with His Word. Listen to Him.

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, " This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

Mark 7:14
After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, "Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:

Luke 10:16
" The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

Mark 4:24
And He was saying to them, "Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides.

Luke 22:70
And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, " Yes, I am."

John 13:13
"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

 

[WesleyF]

Consider a human being. A human being has some thoughts. If he were to project all those thoughts, he would be able to create a somewhat rough “image” of himself. That image would be distinct from him, but not separate.

God has perfect knowledge about himself. When God projects all his thoughts, the “image” formed is a perfect replica of himself, to the extent that this image becomes a person :newidea: → . So although this person is distinct from God, he is not separable. He is the perfect replica of God, and therefore IS God. This person is called the Word of God. “Word” because he sums up all that God knows about himself and wants to speak about himself.

Now, God loves this person, his Son (as revealed to us) and the Son loves God back. :hug3: But since God IS love, the very exchange of love between the two becomes a third person! :grouphug:

Thus, God is one, but there are 3 persons in God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[WesleyF]

How does Trinity help us?

Trinity helps us to understand how God IS love. (1 John 4:8)

God existed before creation. When there was nothing created to love, God still was love? Whom did he love when there was nothing? Can love ever be solitary? Love, by it’s very nature, has to involve more than one entity. So if God IS love, his very being has to involve more than one entity.

Here’s where Trinity helps us. It helps us to understand how God is love. If God is solitary (only one person, not 3 persons in 1), he can’t be love!

 

[WesleyF]

americancatholictruthsociety.com/sheen/11TheBlessedTrinity.mp3

Listen to this wonderful explanation, and you’ll be glad, just like I was!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

A man may be a father (to a child), a son (to his father), and an inspiration (to other people).

If that man dies , he is dead as a father , as a child , as a frined / inspiration etc etc. But Christians beleive when son died , father did not die. Father knows when will be the last day but son or holy Spirit (pbut ) did not know that info. So , I think , this example is not suitable to understand trinity.

 

[FightingFat]

If that man dies , he is dead as a father , as a child , as a frined / inspiration etc etc. But Christians beleive when son died , father did not die. Father knows when will be the last day but son or holy Spirit (pbut ) did not know that info. So , I think , this example is not suitable to understand trinity.

The Eternal Son came to earth and did die, yes, but only in His human nature, not His divine nature.

 

[FightingFat]

A man may be a father (to a child), a son (to his father), and an inspiration (to other people).

I like these human analogies (as I posted earlier some examples of Augustine and Aquinas’ use of them) but strictly speaking, this is modalism.

 

[FightingFat]

If that man dies , he is dead as a father , as a child , as a frined / inspiration etc etc. But Christians beleive when son died , father did not die. Father knows when will be the last day but son or holy Spirit (pbut ) did not know that info. So , I think , this example is not suitable to understand trinity.

God is absolute holiness and absolute justice, right? We know that we sin, right? Still we have been shown that God loves us and wants us to know Him. So imagine if someone said to you that you had to choose two of your four children to live and two to die for the sake of justice, could you do it? Or would you find yourself sacrificing your own life in order that your children did not have to die?

This is why Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary and was made man.

 

[grandfather]

God is absolute holiness and absolute justice, right? We know that we sin, right? Still we have been shown that God loves us and wants us to know Him. So imagine if someone said to you that you had to choose two of your four children to live and two to die for the sake of justice, could you do it? Or would you find yourself sacrificing your own life in order that your children did not have to die?

This is why Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary and was made man.

This is very good. Thanks!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

…would you find yourself sacrificing your own life in order that your children did not have to die?

Yes but death of Jesus (pbuh) did not save anyone from death , not even his own mom escaped it . It proves that
only God is immortal.

Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary

Earlier I read Jesus (pbuh) was incarnate of God . Mother Mary (pbuh) is not God , right ??

 

[Hypatia]

[Augustine] first used the idea of ‘Lover, Beloved and Love’ to describe the Trinity but was aware of the weakness of his own analogy: what happens if the lover and the loved are the same? Nevertheless, he maintains that we should be able to find something out about the Trinity from looking at ourselves (since we are made in the image of God).

I am singling out the quote from FF, but this seems typical of a lot of the responses which focus on the Trinity as an account of God’s love. While the various analogies between the Trinity and a family are, to my ears, frightening, especially when combined with talk about the Son being the offspring of the Father, what I take away from all this is that the Trinity a way for Christians to talk about the desire for unity that is found throughout creation and relate that desire back to God.

It still strikes me as somewhat questionable that this love of God is taken so literally as to suggest some sort of distinction within God. The question mentioned in FF’s quote seems particularly important to keep in mind: how does one understand Love if the “lover and the loved are the same?”. We can become objects to ourselves because there is a sort of reflective gap in our own self-awareness, but it is not clear to me that this type of reflexivity is appropriate to the One.

My best translation, if you will, of “Trinity” so far: Human unity is grounded in the divine One. Thus the love by which community is formed is the very love of God. God-Love is then specified in a peculiar way by Christians as Trinity, which is a master-metaphor for the way human community is an image of God.

This is probably woefully inadequate and Christians may find the language of master-metaphor too weak, but that is what I get from it so far…trying to keep the language somewhat within the bounds of what would be permissible on the basis of the One.

thanks to everyone who has responded.

 

[always_gr8ful]

My best translation, if you will, of “Trinity” so far: Human unity is grounded in the divine One. Thus the love by which community is formed is the very love of God. God-Love is then specified in a peculiar way by Christians as Trinity, which is a master-metaphor for the way human community is an image of God.

If the Quran said that Allah had a son, and this son was Allah and equal to Allah, and the son was a go-between (so to speak) between you and Allah, and much was said about Allah’s perfect son, would you not believe the plain statements of the son in the Quran and call the son a metaphor for something else? Or would you try to wrap your mind around the significance of the Son?

 

[FightingFat]

Yes but death of Jesus (pbuh) did not save anyone from death , not even his own mom escaped it . It proves that
only God is immortal.

Well, many people believe Mary was assumed into Heaven, so, maybe --maybe not. It any case, physical death is not the focus of Salvation, it’s what happens afterwards that matters most!

Earlier I read Jesus (pbuh) was incarnate of God . Mother Mary (pbuh) is not God , right ??

Just a little linguistic problem you’re having there Muslin Woman-- Jesus is God Incarnate (which means made flesh/ possessing human form) he was made Incarnate of the Virgin Mary, that is, she was the one who bore Him. He is God who took on human flesh and the human flesh He took on was Mary’s.

 

[FightingFat]

I am singling out the quote from FF, but this seems typical of a lot of the responses which focus on the Trinity as an account of God’s love. While the various analogies between the Trinity and a family are, to my ears, frightening, especially when combined with talk about the Son being the offspring of the Father, what I take away from all this is that the Trinity a way for Christians to talk about the desire for unity that is found throughout creation and relate that desire back to God.

It still strikes me as somewhat questionable that this love of God is taken so literally as to suggest some sort of distinction within God. The question mentioned in FF’s quote seems particularly important to keep in mind: how does one understand Love if the “lover and the loved are the same?”. We can become objects to ourselves because there is a sort of reflective gap in our own self-awareness, but it is not clear to me that this type of reflexivity is appropriate to the One.

My best translation, if you will, of “Trinity” so far: Human unity is grounded in the divine One. Thus the love by which community is formed is the very love of God. God-Love is then specified in a peculiar way by Christians as Trinity, which is a master-metaphor for the way human community is an image of God.

This is probably woefully inadequate and Christians may find the language of master-metaphor too weak, but that is what I get from it so far…trying to keep the language somewhat within the bounds of what would be permissible on the basis of the One.

Hypatia, this is not correct. Please do not run off with Augustine’s flawed analogy and ignore everything else I have said; God is three persons, one substance. One God, three separate persons. Saint Athanasius is the person who has helped me most to understand Trinity-- God can never be without His Word, any more than the light can cease to shine or the river source to flow. Hence the Son must exist eternally alongside the Father. The explanation of this is that His generation is an eternal process; “just as the Father is always good by nature, so He is by nature always generative”. It is entirely correct to call Him the Father’s eternal offspring, for the Father’s being was never incomplete, needing an essential feature to be added to it; nor is the Son’s generation like a man’s from his parent, involving His coming into existence after the Father. Rather He is God’s offspring, and since God is eternal and He belongs to God as Son, He exists from all eternity. It is characteristic of men, because of the imperfection of their nature, to beget in time; but God’s offspring is eternal, His nature always being perfect. The key issue for Athanasius is salvation. God must be made man in Jesus so that we might become God. The λόγος who appeared in Jesus must therefore be eternal. Only if the Father and the Son are co-eternal can Jesus, in whom the λόγος is present, give us eternal life. Athanasius has the Son as the Father’s image; He is the stream and the Father the source, He the brightness and the Father the light. Thus because of the Son’s complete likeness to the Father, because of His belonging to the Father’s substance; anyone who has seen Christ sees the Father. We can now see how Athanasius redirects theology to the unity of God, because it is a very short step from this position to oneness (ένότης), even identity (ταύτότης), of being. Athanasius fully embraces this and his favourite analogy for the Son’s divinity is that the Father’s divinity is the light and the Son is its brightness. The Father and the Son are distinguishable as two, yet are one and the same substance, they:

“…are one in the intimate union of Their nature and the identity of Their Godhead…Thus they are one, and Their Godhead is one, so that whatever is predicated of the Son is predicated of the Father.”

Athanasius’s thought then holds two dimensions in tension together; the unique indivisible Monad of the Godhead and the Scriptural revelation which demands a real duality:

“The Son as offspring is other than the Father, He is identical with Him as God.”

I really would recommend you read up on the early councils of the Church and how the Church Fathers thought through these problems, you will be shocked to find Islam in there around the first century (the Docetic heresy). I have an essay that runs through the main points in about 4,500 words if you want, I’ll email it to you!