How does the Holy Spirit knock someone out?

[Bruised_Reed]

Thistle, you’ve described your own experience in another thread and someone told you that what you encountered was in no way typical of Charismatic Renewal. I could have told you the same thing a long time ago if you had only shared your experience before that. Yet, you persist in despairing CCM even though you have been told yours was not a good, authentic experience, and in spite of CCM having the approval of the Church.

 

[Bonnie]

Are other movements in the Church available and active at every parish? When I lived in a metro area, I had to visit several parishes or homes for the different groups: Focolare, Legion of Mary, Opus Dei, Third order or lay associations. And just as with all of these and others, like Cursillo, not everyone is called to be in a Charismatic group. I’d be willing to bet most Catholics haven’t even heard of any of these.

I quite agree with the part I bolded. I have a problem with people who think we should all be part of the charismatic group. I’m a Franciscan, but I don’t go around telling people they should be Franciscan. That’s why we have Come & See events, so people can check us out & see if it’s a good fit. We don’t tell anyone they SHOULD be a Franciscan.

But on the other hand, St. Francis has had good press over the years - charismatics, because they belong to many different churches, have not always looked good. Several of us have had bad experiences and it shouldn’t matter if it was in a Protestant church or a Catholic one. Or are Catholic charismatics saying the Holy Spirit is not present in Protestant churches?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I quite agree with the part I bolded. I have a problem with people who think we should all be part of the charismatic group. I’m a Franciscan, but I don’t go around telling people they should be Franciscan. That’s why we have Come & See events, so people can check us out & see if it’s a good fit. We don’t tell anyone they SHOULD be a Franciscan.

But on the other hand, St. Francis has had good press over the years - charismatics, because they belong to many different churches, have not always looked good. Several of us have had bad experiences and it shouldn’t matter if it was in a Protestant church or a Catholic one. Or are Catholic charismatics saying the Holy Spirit is not present in Protestant churches?

That’s like saying the Holy Spirit hasn’t gotten good press. And, thinking about it, it probably hasn’t.
The bolded doesn’t make sense to me, unless I put it into the following context. I’m not going to name the movements but nearly all of them have had issues within local groups. Many people have spoken out about them on CAF and I had my own experiences with certain ones (I didn’t list them.) Unfortunately, there is a human component to all these groups, as well as the Church as a whole. You are coming dangerously close to suggesting that the Church is not guided and protected by the Church because of the actions of a not insignificant number of individuals. Same thing with CCM and other movements.

 

[Bonnie]

You are coming dangerously close to suggesting that the Church is not guided and protected by the Church because of the actions of a not insignificant number of individuals. Same thing with CCM and other movements.

Nope - don’t think so. I am saying I don’t care for the charismatic stuff of any stripe. I also don’t want to be involved with Cursillo, Legion of Mary, Opus Dei, and several other groups, but when asked if I’m interested, I can say no, and no one tries to argue with me. Charismatics often come off as pushy.

I’ve met people who have had bad experiences in the Catholic Church. I apologize on behalf of the Church, but I don’t argue with them or try to convince them they should give the Church another try. That’s between them and God. As it should be with any of the “extras” of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Nope - don’t think so. I am saying I don’t care for the charismatic stuff of any stripe. I also don’t want to be involved with Cursillo, Legion of Mary, Opus Dei, and several other groups, but when asked if I’m interested, I can say no, and no one tries to argue with me. Charismatics often come off as pushy.

Most of the Charismatics that **I **encountered were not pushy so that evens things out because one’s own experience is the only thing that counts, right? The only time I had problems with a croup was the cult-like group that got shut down by the diocese. But I prayed with at least 5 CCM groups, including the cult-y one, but the members of the other groups were humble and didn’t nag me to join and were still warm and friendly even after I bailed on them (the members of a couple of the groups were so much older than me, it felt really awkward.)

Out of curiosity, is the entire group that nags others to join or one or two? Because there always seems to be one or two in any group that are kind of zealous. That you haven’t encountered it with the other groups may only be a matter of time, or you’re just lucky. The Third Order Carmelites near me bugged a friend of mine to join and he leaned toward Carmelite spirituality but found their approach off-putting. It’s the inidividuals, not the movement, that are the problem.

I’ve met people who have had bad experiences in the Catholic Church. I apologize on behalf of the Church, but I don’t argue with them or try to convince them they should give the Church another try. That’s between them and God. As it should be with any of the “extras” of the Catholic Church.
I agree. There is something for everyone in the Church; for every kind of spirituality and temperament.

 

[ccmcmg]

I quite agree with the part I bolded. I have a problem with people who think we should all be part of the charismatic group. I’m a Franciscan, but I don’t go around telling people they should be Franciscan. That’s why we have Come & See events, so people can check us out & see if it’s a good fit. We don’t tell anyone they SHOULD be a Franciscan.

But on the other hand, St. Francis has had good press over the years - charismatics, because they belong to many different churches, have not always looked good. Several of us have had bad experiences and it shouldn’t matter if it was in a Protestant church or a Catholic one. Or are Catholic charismatics saying the Holy Spirit is not present in Protestant churches?

?? We Charismatics belong to one Church: The Catholic Church.

I haven’t had your experiences that were negative. Mine have been very positive, even when I was just ‘visiting’. I don’t tell anyone that they should be ‘Charismatic’ or have a special devotion to the Holy Spirit. I may tell others about my own experience, but have you seen one person in any thread on CAF regarding this, telling anyone that they have to be ‘Charismatic’ or have that relationship? No, I’d almost guarantee you have not. I haven’t even seen that in person, and I’ve been to a lot of parishes and Masses in my life.

Please don’t put words in our mouths. No one said anything about the Holy Spirit being or not being in Protestant churches.

Thankfully, we are not to judge anything based on ‘press’, but on its merits. Franciscan probably has good merits; however, that doesn’t preclude Jesuits or Charismatics or the Legion of Mary from having good merits, too.

We are called to be Catholic. As long as we are only participating in approved groups within the Church, what is the issue? This is my (our) God, Holy Spirit we’re talking about here. I will continue to defend Him and His Church.

You really seem to have something strong against the Charismatics and the devotion to the Holy Spirit. While I appreciate your point of view, your bias against an approved part of the Church is not helpful. Can you at least say that your view is clouded? You have shared why, and I accept that. What is the threat to you with people being devoted to God, the Holy Spirit?

 

[Bonnie]

?? We Charismatics belong to one Church: The Catholic Church.

Even the Protestant charismatics? Most of my experience is with them.

You really seem to have something strong against the Charismatics and the devotion to the Holy Spirit.

Not to the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Charismatic movement was inspired by the Protestant charismatics. And as I said, that’s where most of my experience was. It was fun - what teenager doesn’t like good music & dancing? It was a great emotional outlet. But in the long run I didn’t find it edifying.

The Catholic charismatics I met were somewhat more restrained, but I couldn’t separate it from my Protestant experience. You can do all the shouting, dancing, speaking in tongues, and being slain in the Spirit all you want - but I’ll have nothing to do with it.

 

[ccmcmg]

Even the Protestant charismatics? Most of my experience is with them.

Not to the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Charismatic movement was inspired by the Protestant charismatics. And as I said, that’s where most of my experience was. It was fun - what teenager doesn’t like good music & dancing? It was a great emotional outlet. But in the long run I didn’t find it edifying.

The Catholic charismatics I met were somewhat more restrained, but I couldn’t separate it from my Protestant experience. You can do all the shouting, dancing, speaking in tongues, and being slain in the Spirit all you want - but I’ll have nothing to do with it.

Bonnie,
You don’t have to do anything with it; but why discourage others?

Again, the Charismatic Movement is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Just because others have similar things, or have done similar things, it’s the Holy Spirit that directs each of us.

It’s your choice. I realize that. But don’t stand in the way of others who need to make their own decisions about it, an APPROVED and welcomed part of the Catholic Church.

Btw, I haven’t heard any ‘shouting’ at Mass. And, yes, it’s still Mass, even with us Charismatics/devoted to Holy Spirit Catholics there.

 

[Dorothy]

Bonnie,
You don’t have to do anything with it; but why discourage others?

Again, the Charismatic Movement is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Just because others have similar things, or have done similar things, it’s the Holy Spirit that directs each of us.

It’s your choice. I realize that. But don’t stand in the way of others who need to make their own decisions about it, an APPROVED and welcomed part of the Catholic Church.

Btw, I haven’t heard any ‘shouting’ at Mass. And, yes, it’s still Mass, even with us Charismatics/devoted to Holy Spirit Catholics there.

My introduction to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was great! Although I am aware that every spiritual movement in the Church has flaws as we are all not yet perfectly united with Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Many years ago I shared on this forum about my experiences with the renewal. I was introduced to it by a Carmelite priest, who is now deceased, who shared that he was “called off the mountain” so to speak, to be a guide and director to those who were seeking a deeper prayer life, and those in Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and those attracted to Carmelite spirituality.

He came from New Jersey to Long Island once a month to give a Day of Prayer with two conferences
which consisted of the teachings of the Carmelite saints such as St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. Therese, the Little Flower. Other topics included the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit.

After receiving the Eucharist he asked us to remain silent for 15 minutes and allow the Lord to speak to us. He told us when we were allowed to share the charismatic gifts, and after that fifteen minutes of silence, the gifts were quite powerful. There was no jumping around or a lot of noise. What he was showing us is where the renewal should take us on our spiritual journey. It becomes interior and deeply prayerful after much cooperating with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. He also focused on the enormous help we get from Our Blessed Mother.

In my opinion, this priest was called to correct (gently) and guide those in the renewal who were likely to get carried away with the good feelings, and then leave the Sacraments.

I am so thankful for all that he taught me.

Peace and Prayers,

Dorothy…Third Order Lay Carmelite.

 

[Bonnie]

Bonnie,
You don’t have to do anything with it; but why discourage others?

Because someone asked & I had an opinion. We all have a few of those, don’t we?

 

[ccmcmg]

Because someone asked & I had an opinion. We all have a few of those, don’t we?

Sharing experiences is one thing. Discouraging others and talking badly is another.

 

[Bonnie]

Sharing experiences is one thing. Discouraging others and talking badly is another.

That’s a matter in interpretation, don’t you think? I could never encourage someone to go to a church - Catholic or Protestant - that practices the pentecostal/charismatic stuff. I’m convinced it it purely human, not a result of being “filled” with the Holy Spirit.

As I said somewhere above, witnessing a pentecostal/charismatic service can turn some people off from Christianity altogether, while others enjoy it.

There was a fad in pentecostal churches in the late '60s about “healing” those who had one leg a bit longer than the other. The idea was that unequal leg length caused health problems. The “sufferer” would sit in a chair with both legs stretched out in front. One leg was always shorter than the other (try it for yourself). Preacher would pray over the person (with all of us chiming in), he would give a shove to the bottoms of the feet and lo and behold! The legs were now the same length. It took me a while to figure out that no one was being “healed,” that, in fact, there was nothing to be healed of.

It’s hard to get these pictures like this out of my mind. Maybe when I’m gaga from old age (I’m getting there - some say I’m already there ), I’ll again find enjoyment in letting myself go. In the meantime, I’ll try to protect my dignity.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

That’s a matter in interpretation, don’t you think? I could never encourage someone to go to a church - Catholic or Protestant - that practices the pentecostal/charismatic stuff. I’m convinced it it purely human, not a result of being “filled” with the Holy Spirit.

As I said somewhere above, witnessing a pentecostal/charismatic service can turn some people off from Christianity altogether, while others enjoy it.

There was a fad in pentecostal churches in the late '60s about “healing” those who had one leg a bit longer than the other. The idea was that unequal leg length caused health problems. The “sufferer” would sit in a chair with both legs stretched out in front. One leg was always shorter than the other (try it for yourself). Preacher would pray over the person (with all of us chiming in), he would give a shove to the bottoms of the feet and lo and behold! The legs were now the same length. It took me a while to figure out that no one was being “healed,” that, in fact, there was nothing to be healed of.

It’s hard to get these pictures like this out of my mind. Maybe when I’m gaga from old age (I’m getting there - some say I’m already there ), I’ll again find enjoyment in letting myself go. In the meantime, I’ll try to protect my dignity.

Are you saying that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are fake? So what was Paul talking about when he wrote the following?

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

[Bonnie]

Are you saying that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are fake? So what was Paul talking about when he wrote the following?

No - I’m saying that much of what passes for the work of the Holy Spirit is not. People are fooled, mistaken, or, in some extreme cases like Marjoe Gortner, lying.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t know about anybody else but if I am being leaned into, as has happened to me before, I am definitely going to resist with my body; I am not going to be pushed over and call it the Holy Spirit.

But that’s beside the point, as I would not go again to a venue in which that kind of “slaying” is expected. I find no spiritual benefit to becoming unconscious, if in fact that happens.

YMMV, of course. I’m not saying what anybody else should do or not.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I don’t know about anybody else but if I am being leaned into, as has happened to me before, I am definitely going to resist with my body; I am not going to be pushed over and call it the Holy Spirit.

But that’s beside the point, as I would not go again to a venue in which that kind of “slaying” is expected. I find no spiritual benefit to becoming unconscious, if in fact that happens.

YMMV, of course. I’m not saying what anybody else should do or not.

ICXC NIKA

One is not unconscious. I was fully aware of things going on around me. I was also aware of healing going on within me and that was what I was most aware of.

 

[Bonnie]

I find no spiritual benefit to becoming unconscious, if in fact that happens.

In my time at the Pentecostal church, I was “slain in the spirit” more than once. When I had health problems later & fainted rather often, I found there was no difference. A faint is a faint.

The only time I had what might be called a spiritual experience while not completely conscious was awful - and not in a good way. Some years later I read about the physical reasons for near death experiences and no longer considered it spiritual.

 

[ccmcmg]

Summary:

The Holy Spirit doesn’t knock anyone out. It’s a matter of expectations - you expect to be “knocked out,” you will. I spent part of my teen years in such a church and never again will I let a person have that much control over me.

Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, either.

Really? You sound like you are the definitive source of what does and doesn’t have to do with the Holy Spirit. Please explain to me how it doesn’t have to do with the Holy Spirit, when it’s quoted in the Bible as it does.

What isn’t right with that picture is that being “slain in the spirit” is all about emotion, while the Eucharist simply is; think of God referring to Himself as “I AM,” a simple statement of fact.

When people at a church are acting like sports fans or as if they’re at a rave (are those still being done?), they are simply caught up in the emotion of others, not having a spiritual experience.

The Eucharist and Jesus Christ are the center of the sacrifice of ANY Mass, even one attended by Charismatics. Why categorize it otherwise?

And are they acting like they’re cheering their favorite sports team or at a dance? If so, my reply stands. Years ago I went to a couple of Catholic Charismatic meetings & they were quite sedate, unlike the Protestant church services I used to attend.

So, you’re saying that Catholic Charismatics aren’t like the Pentecostal services you attended, but you still choose to lump them together in your disdain for them.

If the Catholic Charismatic Movement (is that what the M stands for?) were a **normal **part of the Catholic experience, then it would be present in all parishes and we would all be doing it. It’s a very small subset of the Catholic Church.

So, are you calling it ABNORMAL? Anything that doesn’t happen in every parish at every Mass is abnormal? We don’t use any Latin in our Mass at my regular parish; does that make it abnormal, or the ones that do, abnormal? ‘Abnormal’ as you use it sounds like ‘wrong’.

I quite agree with the part I bolded. I have a problem with people who think we should all be part of the charismatic group. I’m a Franciscan, but I don’t go around telling people they should be Franciscan. That’s why we have Come & See events, so people can check us out & see if it’s a good fit. We don’t tell anyone they SHOULD be a Franciscan.

But on the other hand, St. Francis has had good press over the years - charismatics, because they belong to many different churches, have not always looked good. Several of us have had bad experiences and it shouldn’t matter if it was in a Protestant church or a Catholic one. Or are Catholic charismatics saying the Holy Spirit is not present in Protestant churches?

Now here, you’re going by ‘feelings’, yet you say that Charismatics are by ‘feeling’, when that’s not quite true. As I mentioned before, we all (Catholics) belong to ONE CHURCH…the Catholic Church. We don’t go to different churches. Different parishes, but then again, I don’t think all the millions of Catholics could fit in one building or parish, could they? I haven’t seen anyone say that we all should be the same or have the same devotion. (cont.)

 

[ccmcmg]

(cont.)

Nope - don’t think so. I am saying I don’t care for the charismatic stuff of any stripe. I also don’t want to be involved with Cursillo, Legion of Mary, Opus Dei, and several other groups, but when asked if I’m interested, I can say no, and no one tries to argue with me. Charismatics often come off as pushy.

I’ve met people who have had bad experiences in the Catholic Church. I apologize on behalf of the Church, but I don’t argue with them or try to convince them they should give the Church another try. That’s between them and God. As it should be with any of the “extras” of the Catholic Church.

I don’t think of these as ‘extras’, but enhancements. They aren’t necessary, but they certainly are welcomed. I’ll take all the so-called extras I can do; I don’t want to be someone who attends Mass for an hour on Sunday and then be done with it. I’ve never seen anyone ‘argue’ anyone into becoming Catholic, or into the Legion of Mary, or Devoted to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, or Franciscan, or Charismatics. For the record, I’ve had more people of another devotion in the Faith try to argue me, or guilt me, or whatever, into their group, but never Charismatic. But I’m not going to paint all of them with the same brush.

**Even the Protestant charismatics? Most of my experience is with them. **

The Catholic charismatics I met were somewhat more restrained, but I couldn’t separate it from my Protestant experience. You can do all the shouting, dancing, speaking in tongues, and being slain in the Spirit all you want - but I’ll have nothing to do with it.

That’s your choice; why are you trying to convince others not to participate? Again, opinion is one thing; discouragement is another.

That’s a matter in interpretation, don’t you think? I could never encourage someone to go to a church - Catholic or Protestant - that practices the pentecostal/charismatic stuff. I’m convinced it it purely human, not a result of being “filled” with the Holy Spirit.

As I said somewhere above, witnessing a pentecostal/charismatic service can turn some people off from Christianity altogether, while others enjoy it.

It’s hard to get these pictures like this out of my mind. Maybe when I’m gaga from old age (I’m getting there - some say I’m already there ), I’ll again find enjoyment in letting myself go. In the meantime, I’ll try to protect my dignity.

It isn’t ‘stuff’. It’s the Catholic Church, Bonnie. It’s God. It’s the Holy Spirit. Accept it or not, that’s a fact. As for turning people off, goodness, even a baby crying in the back can turn someone off of going to Mass. Or no seat cushions. Or a priest with a heavy accent.

No - I’m saying that much of what passes for the work of the Holy Spirit is not. People are fooled, mistaken, or, in some extreme cases like Marjoe Gortner, lying.

Was Marjoe Gortner Catholic? Nope. Was he human? Yep. We are all sinners; we all make mistakes. There are going to be people in EVERY group of people (however you choose to divide them) that aren’t doing it for the best reasons. We’ve seen that in every religious order, every race, every income level, every everything!

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Yes, one bad apple can affect the whole bunch, but we should also be intelligent adults and realize that it’s one person (or two, or 100) out of thousands of people who are doing good.

MUCH of what ‘passes’ (your word) for the Holy Spirit is…the Holy Spirit!

These above quotes are what I’m seeing as discouragement. Tell us how and why you didn’t like it, but don’t dissuade others from making their own decisions and seeing for themselves.

I’ve seen many Charismatics (Catholics with a special devotion to the Holy Spirit) on CAF, and no one has told anyone that they have to do the same. Yet, I see others who aren’t, telling people to stay away from it…an approved part of the Catholic Church, supported by the Pope and the Vatican. It’s part of the Catholic Faith, whether others like it or not. All are invited to participate; no one is required or forced to do so.

At the least, I would ask that people reference their experiences with the Catholic Charismatics, and not draw non-Catholic experiences into it. That’s really only fair. I’m defending my God, the Holy Spirit, my Church, and my Faith by responding to comments like these. And if I’m ‘defending’…

 

[Bonnie]

Christina -

I’ve already replied to most of these questions. I’m done with subject. Have a nice day.