How does the Holy Spirit knock someone out?

[Dorothy]

My introduction to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was great! Although I am aware that every spiritual movement in the Church has flaws as we are all not yet perfectly united with Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Many years ago I shared on this forum about my experiences with the renewal. I was introduced to it by a Carmelite priest, who is now deceased, who shared that he was “called off the mountain” so to speak, to be a guide and director to those who were seeking a deeper prayer life, and those in Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and those attracted to Carmelite spirituality.

He came from New Jersey to Long Island once a month to give a Day of Prayer with two conferences
which consisted of the teachings of the Carmelite saints such as St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. Therese, the Little Flower. Other topics included the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit.

After receiving the Eucharist he asked us to remain silent for 15 minutes and allow the Lord to speak to us. He told us when we were allowed to share the charismatic gifts, and after that fifteen minutes of silence, the gifts were quite powerful. There was no jumping around or a lot of noise. What he was showing us is where the renewal should take us on our spiritual journey. It becomes interior and deeply prayerful after much cooperating with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. He also focused on the enormous help we get from Our Blessed Mother.

In my opinion, this priest was called to correct (gently) and guide those in the renewal who were likely to get carried away with the good feelings, and then leave the Sacraments.

I am so thankful for all that he taught me.

Peace and Prayers,

Dorothy…Third Order Lay Carmelite.

I decided to post this again, since it seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

… At NO POINT, does any person have any control over anyone else in the CCM; God does, especially through the Holy Spirit…
This Pentecostal experience you described is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, like the Catholic Charismatic Movement. Do not compare the two…
… I have to wonder why the animosity and attacks on a valid and approved part of the Catholic Church. Is it fear? Lack of information or knowledge? Before someone attacks the CCM, ask yourself that. What is it?

Hmmm, You say that 'at no point does any person have control over anyone else in the CCM"… but see, that’s the point… With the Charismatic movement, it *IS *about people motivating (control) and influencing (control) others- what they think, what they should feel, how they should act… all of that is about control. That is why you go there to those events… to be moved, motivated… to expect something. Its just an underhanded manipulative psychological tactic. It works well because we are all human with normal natural desires and needs. And for a time, that can actually fulfill, but I don’t believe its how The Lord actually wants to fulfill.

Sadly, there are A LOT of people use it to manipulate (they want power over others- something Jesus said a follower of His does not want or display traits that they do), just like the so called preacher boy Bonnie was talking about. And of course that kid/guy is a very dramatic example- one that most people would not give credence to, but all it takes is the right leader of a group using that group’s expectations- of what that group accepts as what to expect. Its that simple. And its not good psychologically to put oneself in that motion or anywhere near it because the leader’s concern is not so much for you, but what he gets from you… that can be fame, money, love, admiration, need to be needed, satisfaction of having followers… It doesn’t have to be anything outright sinister like fooling people for money like in Bonnie’s example of that boy preacher. It can be something as simple as someone being "off’ psychologically. I mean no offense to them by that statement either, but just that it can happen that way. It doesn’t even have to be something seriously ‘off’ psychologically… we all have the propensity for pride.

Also, this is how the Nazis came about… honest, if you don’t believe me, study things like that. People liking what they are being told and becoming enthusiastic about it, what they hear and it spreads as something popular. (This is also how fads are spread-Holy Scripture speaks of things like this as “wind”.) Of course, humans will never be free of other human influence… as I said its normal and natural and even GOOD- Iron sharpens Iron Scripture says. But even Jesus said to be warned of the wolves in sheep’s clothing. Discernment is a gift, but its also a necessity. People wonder how people get sucked into bizarre cults,… and this is exactly the way. Those who study cults know that normal people fall for these schemes.

As far as comparing the Pentecostal place I visited and the CCM… I WILL compare the two because they both were given birth from the same movement. Had the CCM been going on the in the church for years way before the Pentecostal movement took off, then maybe I’d consider it. Do you not even find it a bit odd that the one (the outsider group) influenced the other? Its not part of Catholic tradition. What was wrong with Catholic tradition that you have to put down it and pick up this foreign concept?

Honestly, I don’t think any of my posts should have came across as attacks- not saying that you think I am, but just in case you meant me, I wanted to address it. I have no animosity for people spiritually seeking… and as I speak here, so did I, seek that route. Its there. And to me, if its out there, you can go explore it, look into it, see what its about. There is so much out there to see and wonder about spiritually speaking, I’d never want to attack anyone for seeking God, seeking Christ, seeking TRUTH! (At any level as long as they were seeking what is truly good for all and honestly seeking-everyone has to start somewhere.)

Having said all that, there comes a point where one, after very careful deliberation, study and experience makes a decision about those spiritual experiences and warns others if they find it to be a detriment, or a concern, or at least puts their thoughts down to others as a warning with concern- as I said before Iron sharpening Iron. If anything, what I’ve been saying should be taken as a warning. Be wary, be awake. Know Scripture. Know history. Seek God. After all, that is what Christ said for us to do. “Watch”. Scripture says to stick with tradition that is handed onto us… so where does that holy scriptural order leave this new charismatic movement? Should we negate that instruction if we feel good about something? I’m not so sure.

Just want to note that there is the mystics and the mystical. I don’t find anything wrong with that. I’m not sure if people mix that up with the term “charismatic”… it seems they do and then some. But why give it a new name “charismatic”? New names are for new things as the old already have a name and meaning.

By the way, you can have that same feeling of being on fire for the Lord and do all that is traditional. Lots of people equate that stuff to being ‘stuffy’ or ‘rigid’, but in light of the Holy Spirit, it is not. It is forever new and eternal, and life giving just the same, if not better, in my eyes. One is stable the other is not. One is tried and true, the other is just new.

There are of course my opinions and concerns. I hope that you don’t find them upsetting. But I do hope you take what I said here seriously. It was all said in seriousness and concern.

 

[ccmcmg]

Hmmm, You say that 'at no point does any person have control over anyone else in the CCM"… but see, that’s the point… With the Charismatic movement, it *IS *about people motivating (control) and influencing (control) others- what they think, what they should feel, how they should act… all of that is about control. That is why you go there to those events… to be moved, motivated… to expect something. Its just an underhanded manipulative psychological tactic. It works well because we are all human with normal natural desires and needs. And for a time, that can actually fulfill, but I don’t believe its how The Lord actually wants to fulfill.

Also, this is how the **Nazis **came about… honest, if you don’t believe me, study things like that. People liking what they are being told and becoming enthusiastic about it, what they hear and it spreads as something popular. (This is also how fads are spread-Holy Scripture speaks of things like this as “wind”.) Of course, humans will never be free of other human influence… as I said its normal and natural and even GOOD- Iron sharpens Iron Scripture says. But even Jesus said to be warned of the wolves in sheep’s clothing. Discernment is a gift, but its also a necessity. People wonder how people get sucked into bizarre cults,… ** and this is exactly the way. ** Those who study cults know that normal people fall for these schemes.

By the way, you can have that same feeling of being on fire for the Lord and do all that is traditional. Lots of people equate that stuff to being ‘stuffy’ or ‘rigid’, but in light of the Holy Spirit, it is not. It is forever new and eternal, and life giving just the same, if not better, in my eyes. One is stable the other is not. One is tried and true, the other is just new.

There are of course my opinions and concerns. I hope that you don’t find them upsetting. But I do hope you take what I said here seriously. It was all said in seriousness and concern.

There is a lot to respond to, but I’ll try to narrow it down to a few points. I’m very bothered by a few comments you’ve made, to be honest.

Again, no one is controlling me/you at the Masses or prayer meetings, except the Holy Spirit. I’m pretty good with being controlled by the Holy Spirit… I’m letting go of my earthly ties and accepting Him fully. THAT’S why I go to these events: to meet God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, to enjoin myself to Him even more deeply.

---

I absolutely cannot believe that you compared anything to do with the Charismatics of the Catholic Church with the Nazis, and a cult. I cannot wrap my mind around that at all.***

I have been on fire for the Lord doing the ‘traditional’ things, as well as devoting myself to the Holy Spirit. Not only is it an approved part of the Catholic Church, it’s endorsed by the POPE…Pope Francis being the latest. It isn’t an ‘either/or’. It’s God. It’s the Church. It can be ‘both/and’.

Being devoted to the Holy Spirit isn’t new; perhaps ‘naming’ it as Charismatic is new, but it isn’t new; read Acts of the Apostles. It IS stable, as stable as any part of the Catholic Church.

I’m actually quite amazed that people feel the way that you do, and others, about this. It seems as natural as any other part of the Spiritual strengths of the Catholic Church. I accept that these are your opinions, but I don’t believe that they are based on reality. I understand that there is a lot of information out there that is incorrect, some of it even dangerous. I don’t take these comments personally; but I do take them as denigrating the Holy Spirit and people’s devotion to Him.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…
On a complete side note, and not related to any quotes above, I have to wonder why the animosity and attacks on a valid and approved part of the Catholic Church. Is it fear? Lack of information or knowledge? Before someone attacks the CCM, ask yourself that. What is it?

I forgot to address this question of yours in my last post, so I wanted to get to it here.

Just because something is approved in the Church does not mean it is safe or “the way” to go. It just means that nothing contrary to the faith has been found with it. It doesn’t mean its safe or 100% God’s way. There have in history been lots of movements within the Church which later were proved to either be heretical, or not beneficial, or at best just something for that time and not for other eras.

Sometimes there are things that are approved via popularity only, but people think that it is actually approved because of the sheer volume of people accepting it. I’m not really sure that the church approved it- I think it acknowledges it though and accepts it. I do believe the church does this because God can work through it and they don’t want to hinder God, as they said they can’t control The Holy Spirit. They work for The Holy Spirit, not the other way around. Maybe you could enlighten me where in the Catechism or elsewhere that acknowledges that the movement is ‘approved’.

Being a member of the church does not mean you are automatically saved or safe or immune to bad things happening within it. (Ask anyone who was sexually molested by a priest or religious.) Popes can be ‘bad’ (inclination towards evil) too. History tells us so. And that is even church approved history too.

 

[ccmcmg]

I forgot to address this question of yours in my last post, so I wanted to get to it here.

Just because something is approved in the Church does not mean it is safe or “the way” to go. It just means that nothing contrary to the faith has been found with it. It doesn’t mean its safe or 100% God’s way. There have in history been lots of movements within the Church which later were proved to either be heretical, or not beneficial, or at best just something for that time and not for other eras.

Sometimes there are things that are approved via popularity only, but people think that it is actually approved because of the sheer volume of people accepting it. I’m not really sure that the church approved it- I think it acknowledges it though and accepts it. I do believe the church does this because God can work through it and they don’t want to hinder God, as they said they can’t control The Holy Spirit. They work for The Holy Spirit, not the other way around. Maybe you could enlighten me where in the Catechism or elsewhere that acknowledges that the movement is ‘approved’.

Being a member of the church does not mean you are automatically saved or safe or immune to bad things happening within it. (Ask anyone who was sexually molested by a priest or religious.) Popes can be ‘bad’ (inclination towards evil) too. History tells us so. And that is even church approved history too.

Please do not continue to compare the Charismatics and the devotion to the Holy Spirit to things like child molestation inside the Church, Nazis, or cults.

Church approval is vital, and many Popes have approved; you can read many quotes here: ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm

And never, anywhere, did I say that being a member of the Church (not even ‘a church’) meant I was automatically saved or ‘safe’. That’s a red herring, here.

God bless you,

 

[AnneElizabeth]

There is a lot to respond to, but I’ll try to narrow it down to a few points. I’m very bothered by a few comments you’ve made, to be honest.

Again, no one is controlling me/you at the Masses or prayer meetings, except the Holy Spirit. I’m pretty good with being controlled by the Holy Spirit… I’m letting go of my earthly ties and accepting Him fully. THAT’S why I go to these events: to meet God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, to enjoin myself to Him even more deeply.

---

I absolutely cannot believe that you compared anything to do with the Charismatics of the Catholic Church with the Nazis, and a cult. I cannot wrap my mind around that at all.***

I have been on fire for the Lord doing the ‘traditional’ things, as well as devoting myself to the Holy Spirit. Not only is it an approved part of the Catholic Church, it’s endorsed by the POPE…Pope Francis being the latest. It isn’t an ‘either/or’. It’s God. It’s the Church. It can be ‘both/and’.

Being devoted to the Holy Spirit isn’t new; perhaps ‘naming’ it as Charismatic is new, but it isn’t new; read Acts of the Apostles. It IS stable, as stable as any part of the Catholic Church.

I’m actually quite amazed that people feel the way that you do, and others, about this. It seems as natural as any other part of the Spiritual strengths of the Catholic Church. I accept that these are your opinions, but I don’t believe that they are based on reality. I understand that there is a lot of information out there that is incorrect, some of it even dangerous. I don’t take these comments personally; but I do take them as denigrating the Holy Spirit and people’s devotion to Him.

I’ve heard the Holy Spirit being the comforter, and the guider, the Paraclete(helper), but never a controller. That sounds like possession to me. That does not sound like God.

I’m bowing out of the conversation because its going nowhere fast. I stand beside everything I said.

 

[Mummsie]

Quote:
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

I’ve been to one Charismatic meeting. I saw and heard a lot of faithful believers. It just wasn’t right for me. But I do have a question. How do these experiences “profit for all”?
Not sure I get this one.

CCMCMG
" I don’t take these comments personally; but I do take them as denigrating the Holy Spirit and people’s devotion to Him." This seems just wrong. How can we take a disagreement on Charismatic Renewal and dissenters are accused of denigrating the Holy Spirit?

God Bless You.

 

[CouldBNE1]

Wow. So much controversy over something so few have witnessed.
I went to a healing mass where people rested with the spirit, a few months back. I didn’t participate, but I sat and watched as a total skeptic. No one was pushed over, nor were they slain. It was quiet and reverent… very much UNLIKE any Pentecostal service and slaying I’ve seen. There was no shouting or overt pronouncements that anyone was overcome by the spirit. They were simply touched very lightly and gently by the priest who very quietly prayed. Some went down, others didn’t. It was pretty incredible, really. Who knows? I might even go up next time.

 

[Dorothy]

Wow. So much controversy over something so few have witnessed.
I went to a healing mass where people rested with the spirit, a few months back. I didn’t participate, but I sat and watched as a total skeptic. No one was pushed over, nor were they slain. It was quiet and reverent… very much UNLIKE any Pentecostal service and slaying I’ve seen. There was no shouting or overt pronouncements that anyone was overcome by the spirit. They were simply touched very lightly and gently by the priest who very quietly prayed. Some went down, others didn’t. It was pretty incredible, really. Who knows? I might even go up next time.

Hi CouldBNE,

I agree about Catholic Charismatic Prayer (with advanced participants in that their responses eventually become very interior, and that is what it should come to.

I wrote my experience, but I suppose it made no sense to whoever read it, or maybe they didn’t. I re-posted it hoping someone would see it and read it, and there was still no response.

Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts!

 

[CouldBNE1]

Hi CouldBNE,

I agree about Catholic Charismatic Prayer (with advanced participants in that their responses eventually become very interior, and that is what it should come to.

I wrote my experience, but I suppose it made no sense to whoever read it, or maybe they didn’t. I re-posted it hoping someone would see it and read it, and there was still no response.

Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts!

I read it Dorothy. It seems that our experiences were similar in many respects. Unfortunately, most aren’t open to seeing these possibilities until experiencing them, myself included. Hopefully, people will keep open minds and hearts remaining wholly available to receiving such gifts.

 

[Dorothy]

I read it Dorothy. It seems that our experiences were similar in many respects. Unfortunately, most aren’t open to seeing these possibilities until experiencing them, myself included. Hopefully, people will keep open minds and hearts remaining wholly available to receiving such gifts.

I hope so too!

 

[Black_Knight]

The Holy Spirit doesn’t knock anyone out. It’s a matter of expectations - you expect to be “knocked out,” you will. I spent part of my teen years in such a church and never again will I let a person have that much control over me.

Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, either.

Scripturally that is not true Bonnie…however, the NT does tell us to test the spirits and 1st Corinthians 12-14 gets into that pretty specifically. Just keep that in mind.

I don’t recall reading about any time during early or later periods of Christian history that this was something noted among the believers. Its something that seems to be new and started not with Catholics but with some Pentecostals.

It should be noted, that in Scripture, the only ones falling down backwards or being knocked down were the soldiers that came to take Christ away to be tried and crucified. I don’t know if that means anything, but I find it curious and a sign that people should seek discernment in this area.

This is a really good point and one that people should keep in mind whether they are charismatic or not so much.

I just don’t find anything in Scripture, or in Church teaching, to link the Spirit to loss of consciousness. Full stop, as far as I am concerned.

ICXC NIKA.

Fully agree with you.

Slain in the Spirit? Baptized in the Spirit? These are terms foreign to Catholic theology. Also, why is there an emphasis on having a specific relationship with the Spirit without any reference to the Trinity? During Mass, we say Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Spirit. We don’t reverence One person at the exclusion of the others. My concern with the charismatic movement is that it seems to depart from liturgical worship. Why can’t Christians experience a relationship with God within the context of liturgy? Also, it worries me that one particular group of Catholics prefers to worship in one way and another group in another way.That seems to indicate a splintering of unity to me. We should all worship in one way so as not to exclude our brothers and sisters.

 The genesis of the Charismatic Catholic movement began when some professors at Dusquene University read one of Dave Wilkinson's books. I also read one of his books on the end times and he credits the Charismatic movement for bringing Catholics to Christ despite their Roman Catholicism. He treats the two as mutually opposes and prophesies that Rome will persecute Charismatic Catholics one day. From the get go, it seems obvious that the Protestant proponents of the Charismatic movement in Catholicism are anti-Catholic. How is it appropriate to use their theological terminology and make it ours when such terminology is rooted in an anti-catholic tradition?

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for charisms but only as they have been understood through the lenses of Tradition.

Another excellent point. I was AoG and know well the books you are talking about since Wilkerson was AoG. I also agree that we need to be very careful to avoid the n-C errors, no matter how warm and fuzzy their proponents are.

Nope - don’t think so. I am saying I don’t care for the charismatic stuff of any stripe…Charismatics often come off as pushy.

Sadly that is pretty much my own position even though I have had much experience with all this from my days in the AoG. My own experiences with the Holy Spirit are still quite mystical and even amazing, but do not fit the Charismatic mold.

Sharing experiences is one thing. Discouraging others and talking badly is another.

Well…this gets pretty simple really.

Based on the discussion thus far…particularly the points about lack of scriptural support for and absence from church history of this “slain in the spirit” occurrence, do you accept it as a valid manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Bonnie]

Scripturally that is not true Bonnie…

Gee - I just can’t stay away.

Who in the Bible was “knocked out,” made unconscious, by God? The only example I can think of that comes close is St. Paul, but Scripture doesn’t say he was unconscious. Tho one could infer that by his visit to Heaven (which Heaven? I don’t remember & I haven’t had enough coffee yet for energy to look it up ).

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Wow. So much controversy over something so few have witnessed.
I went to a healing mass where people rested with the spirit, a few months back. I didn’t participate, but I sat and watched as a total skeptic. No one was pushed over, nor were they slain. It was quiet and reverent… very much UNLIKE any Pentecostal service and slaying I’ve seen. There was no shouting or overt pronouncements that anyone was overcome by the spirit. They were simply touched very lightly and gently by the priest who very quietly prayed. Some went down, others didn’t. It was pretty incredible, really. Who knows? I might even go up next time.

Just for the record, read what I wrote here… I HAVE witnessed it… or something, -whatever it is- and I have my humble opinion on it here in this thread. You can’t say that the reason why there is so much controversy is because its something people have no knowledge of or haven’t’ witnessed it… because that is not true. There are A LOT of us who have, and even were a part of the movement, and backed out of it due to increasing concerns over it. That doesn’t’ make us dissenters or people who have turned their backs on the Holy Spirit. It makes us “BEREANS”… something Holy Scripture, encourages, applauds.