How easy is it to go to Hell?

[ProdglArchitect]

Non sequitur. You cannot establish how any finite act can result in an infinite consequence. And, it is not relevant whether the act is good or bad. All human acts are, by their very natures, irrespective of the party to whom they are directed, finite. Hence, it is an offense against justice for any finite good or bad to merit any infinite consequence.

It is certainly not a non sequitor. Offenses committed against finite beings merit punishment in relation to the severity of the act. Murder is worse than theft which is worse than lying. Similarly, they merit punishment in relation to nature of the offended party. Killing the leader of a nation will pretty much always be regarded as worse than killing a random passerby, and will be treated with greater severity.

All of these acts are ultimately finite in severity because they are committed against finite beings and have finite repercussions within the world.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that this same principle does not apply as it relates to offenses committed against God. They are committed against someone who’s position relative to our own is infinitely greater, and as such are deserving of an infinitely-greater punishment.

The teaching of the church is most certainly alien to any simple calculus of–you did a good thing so you get an infinitely good reward (unending Heaven). You are saved by the grace of God. You do not earn salvation by your good acts. Right?

I agree that we are saved by the grace of God alone. I am not referencing the gift of salvation, I am referencing the meritorious gain our good acts obtain for us. It is Catholic teaching that just as a damned person is punished according to their sins, so to a saved person is awarded according to their merits. Every good thing I do in God’s name while in a state of salvific grace earns for me a merit and reward in Heaven, and since those merits will be enjoyed forever, they take on the quality of infinity even if the scope of what is received is finite.

I’m out for the day, this has been fun. God bless^^

 

[Magnanimity]

Indeed, it is, and I’ll have to review their writings to read up on it. It is my recollection that many more taught against it than for it, but it’s been a while since I delved into the subject.

Here is a smattering of sources directly relevant to the topic. It’s maintained by an Orthodox clergyman, but he includes several Catholic sources on there.

If the pains of Purgatory are, as they have historically been described by souls experiencing them, comparable in severity to the pains of Hell, then what distinguishes the two states?

It’s a great question, and I certainly don’t know the answer. All of us would do well to keep with a little more humility than St Augustine or David Bentley Hart have managed!

But, I imagine that the truth of the matter would be something close to this: purgatory is like a hospital healing the wounded. Hell, although having some rehabilitative aspects too, is also punitive in nature. From what I’ve read, the Fathers had no problem with seeing Hell as punitive. But, conceiving it as neverending was where we see wide divergence. Most of the East didn’t get there.

 

[stpurl]

iven that the severity of an action is derived in part by the person against whom that action is committed; given that every sin is committed, at least in part, against God; and given that God is infinitely Good; it follows that any sin,

well, here’s your problem. A sin is not a finite act. Nor are our goods finite acts.

Say you have committed 5000 good actions, 1000 neutral actions, and 10 bad actions, 5 of which were mortal sins.

When you commit those bad actions, you either repent in life (in which case the effects of those actions are changed to grace–and GRACE is infinite and continues after death) or you do not repent and the mortal damage you have done to your relationship with God, which continues doing mortal damage through your life and into death where it still continues for infinity–continues to have its killing effect.

Our lives are not, “I committed adultery for 3 months and then stopped”, oh sure, a ‘finite 3 month period’, one and done.

If you committed adultery for 3 months and repented, you have a 3 month period of mortal killing sin which then ‘commutes’ after repentance to a state of grace, and the grace continues on. . .

So when you come before God you aren’t talking about ‘finite sin’ or finite good, you’re infinite ‘coming in’ and you will STAY infinite.

 

[vz71]

If the pains of Purgatory are, as they have historically been described by souls experiencing them, comparable in severity to the pains of Hell, then what distinguishes the two states?

Duration and outcome.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”
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source: What Does the Catholic Church Teach About Purgatory? | Catholic Answers

From my understanding having been taught from scholars like Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Mitch Pacwa,
Fr. Spitzer : both the tendency in the human will must be purified, plus the effect of one’s forgiven sins.
This makes sense. For example Jesus Beloved Christ, told us to leave our gift at the altar, and reconcile with our brethren, then go back to the altar. Of course, this is rarely literal in time unless someone had an imminent need for safety or well being of others to leave Church and reconcile.
But Jesus Christ doesn’t only reconcile individuals to himself, but the whole family of GOD who are destined for Heaven. We are responsible for our actions.
During the 10 Days of Awe from Rosh HaShannah to Yom Kippur, as Brother Robert Fishmen,
a Jewish man who came into the Catholic Church taught on EWTN, each day for the Commandments,
one by one, someone would meditate on relationship with GOD and one another, even ancestors.
(Of course, ancestors without necromancy, but even ‘Grave site,’ talking with them as friends.)
_
Of course, when someone refuses Grace, " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46 they accepted an inner disposition which is enmity with GOD, and by their own free will always opposed to GOD, they can’t be reconciled. The sometimes have a ‘form of godliness,’ but authentic Godliness is repugnant to them since they are narcissistic, self serving seducers, like Lucifer, The Devil and his angels, Satan, and so forth. They also have their own
‘good cop’ ‘bad cop’ mentality, which is why demonic possession doesn’t always manifest as ‘monsters.’
_
Peace of Jesus Christ, as we know surpasses all human fallible understanding. It seems to me, that the confusion that comes to the forefront since Christ, is from human being leaning upon their own understanding, so that doubt, worry, & fear detract from The Holy Spirit urging to ask, seek, and knock for reliable witnesses like The Apostles, and what The Holy Spirit bound by The Keys given to Peter.
Have a blessed evening.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Duration and outcome.

I am aware of the Catholic distinctions. That question was directed at a person who was claiming that the souls in Hell would eventually be saved. That would, effectively, remove any distinction between Hell and Purgatory.

 

[Vico]

I doubt any Catholic wants to go to Hell lol

Yet many admit to confessing mortal sin.

Catechism (Sins against the first commandment includes presumption):

2092 There are two kinds of presumption . Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

 

[Latin]

Thank you Magnanimity for your suggestion of the readings.

THE POSITION THAT GOD AT THE END WILL SAVES EVERYONE IS NOT NEW.

The Universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
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I believe Universal Salvation is not new for Pope Francis either because he is the one who replaced Cardinal Gerhard Müller who was the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith until 02/07/2017, with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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In my opinion:
If Pope Francis would oppose Universal Salvation, he would not replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author).
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EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.”
David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, a Jesuit theologian who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has been a professor of theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome since 1984.
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He was also a professor at the Comillas University in Madrid, and from 1992 to 1997 he was a member of the International Theological Commission.
Since 2004 he has been the general secretary of that commission. His works have greatly contributed to contemporary theological debates.
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Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.

“Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).

The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other.

Yet by dying, he gave us life that is the life of his resurrection.

Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God.”
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God bless

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Indeed it is not new at all. Apokotastasis is a heresy. No one can change that. Not even a pope.

It was, as you likely know, condemned in 543 at the Council of Constantinople.

 

[Latin]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).

God’s will is immutable, what He wills that will be done, which is the salavatoin of the entire human race.

We all should believe what we are praying for!!!
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God bless

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Yet apokotostasis is still anathematized.

 

[Latin]

I believe for God ALL THINGS A POSSIBLE even to save the entire human race, CCC 1058.

God bless

 

[Magnanimity]

It was, as you likely know, condemned in 543 at the Council of Constantinople.

Contemporary scholarship does not support this belief. The Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils edited by Norman Tanner notes that, “Our edition does not include the text of the anathemas against Origen since recent studies have shown that these anathemas cannot be attributed to this council,” (pp. 105-106). Those anathemas are from the emperor Justinian. It may be true that the council fathers would have incorporated his anathemas into their corpus. But maybe not—we will never know. But in any event, they do not carry the weight of conciliar pronouncements.

 

[Magnanimity]

A sin is not a finite act. Nor are our goods finite acts.

In this case, it’s an either-or. There is no tertium quid. To claim that there is no limit to the ramifications of your actions is not rational. The only reasonable belief regarding human actions is to acknowledge their intrinsic finitude (even when considering the long term consequences of those acts). To claim otherwise would seem to engage one in fantastical exaggeration. There is no magical way that I can see to move from finitude to infinity.

 

[sudy]

[1735]Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

 

[Magnanimity]

It is Catholic teaching that just as a damned person is punished according to their sins, so to a saved person is awarded according to their merits

That is very true. Christ clearly taught no equality in Heaven. “The first will be last…” But this is not enough to move us from finitude to infinity. Since we will not all be equal in Heaven, this rather points out the finitude of the blessed state. That is, there is a limit. Some saints will exceed your state of blessedness, for example. Therefore, inherently finite.

They are committed against someone who’s position relative to our own is infinitely greater, and as such are deserving of an infinitely-greater punishment.

These comparisons cannot hold. This is deist type reasoning, as if God is the capstone along the Great Chain of Being. Like if we just keep sliding up the scale of honor among living beings eventually we get to God. As if, He’s the biggest guy in the sky or something—the one we’re most supposed to show honor.

No, God is not one being among many. He is being itself. Existence is proper to God alone. Everything else exists by an “improper share” in the divine Existence. This is the unanimous testimony of the brightest minds of the church (Pseudo-Dionysius, Nyssa, Aquinas…) To reason as you have reasoned entails that God is one being among many, instead of what He actually is—the originating and sustaining cause of the entire created order.

It does seem true that if you offend the prince, this goes beyond offending the servant. So the consequences should be more severe. But this reasoning keeps our feet still firmly planted in the undeniable reality of the finitude of our actions. The acts always remain finite.

There is no magical wand to wave to turn one’s finite act with finite consequences into an infinite act with infinite consequences. The finite offender and his finite acts are that which is being punished. I do not somehow bring God’s infinity into myself when I offend Him. It is metaphysically quite impossible, as much as you and Aquinas might like to think otherwise. In the Middle Ages, Aquinas felt compelled to defend eternal-Hell. So he gets a something of a pass. We today, living in the wake of the Ressourcement, are running out of excuses.

 

[nearlycatholic]

Peter posed the question if the righteous scarcely be saved then what of the ungodly? We, all of us, have the propensity to disregard God and live as if He’s just not real. So, I would have to think it’s easier to be lost. BUT and here’s the greatest thing, God who is rich in mercy loves us so much that He pursues us and once He has us if we work in concert with His will He allows us to be in on His work of bringing people to Him. That is an exciting prospect.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Therefore, inherently finite

Finite in type, infinite in duration, same as the pains of Hell.

his is deist type reasoning, as if God is the capstone along the Great Chain of Being.

God is the uncaused cause; as the source of all being, and being itself. There can be nothing greater than God. You are misinterpreting my intention if you think I am treating God like another creation, I am not.

To reason as you have reasoned entails that God is one being among many, instead of what He actually is—the originating and sustaining cause of the entire created order.

My position certainly does not entail such reasoning. In fact, it precludes such reasoning, as I attribute the infinite quality to God. He is being itself, I agree completely, and as being itself, as the source of all that IS He has the greatest possible “standing” as it were. He holds the highest “position” possible, and is due the greatest possible reverence, devotion, and fealty. That is precisely why any offense against Him is so grave as to warrant a commensurate punishment.

I think we are at an impasse here. You believe that finite actions cannot warrant infinite repercussion, I believe that they can. Nothing of what you’ve reasoned out precludes that possibility. You assert that finite actions cannot take on an infinite quality when committed to/against God, but that assertion is not born out by any of your logic.

You speak of bringing God’s infinity into yourself, as if that is the only way an action could take on a quality of the infinite. That is ridiculous. When I offend the president, I do not take any of his presidency into myself, yet, due to his quality as president, the offense takes on the magnitude appropriate to whom it offends. Just the same, when we offend God we do not take any of God’s attributes into ourselves, yet, due to God’s quality as God, the offense takes on the magnitude appropriate to Him whom we have offended. Given that God’s goodness is infinite in magnitude, any offense against that good is necessarily infinite.

There’s really not a lot more either of us can say, it seems unlikely that we’ll convince each other. I’ve enjoyed the debate though. Trust me, I’d be happy if everyone gets to go to Heaven eventually, I just don’t think that’s born out by scripture or the teaching authority of the Church.

 

[Magnanimity]

I understand why you’re reasoning the way you are. It’s subtle and nuanced, and I appreciate that fact. But, the testimony of Catholic and Orthodox history is that there is no shortage of great minds that have rejected the A/T vision of Hell as deeply problematic.

I appreciate the exchange. Believe me, I’m long past trying to convince anyone of anything. I think that the most we can ever hope to do is to give voice to those POV’s that we think need voicing here on CAF. This issue of Hell, like many others, is not nearly so cut and dry as many Catholics want to believe. I merely wish to articulate the multitude of problems with believing in eternal conscious torment. (Believe me, you and I here have barely scratched the surface of the doctrine’s deep internal issues.)

Have a good day, and peace be with you!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But, the testimony of Catholic and Orthodox history is that there is no shortage of great minds that have rejected the A/T vision of Hell as deeply problematic.

Yes, but there’s also no shortage of great minds that have rejected universal salvation. You cannot use the number of people who ascribe to a belief as proof for your position without allowing the same metric to be used as proof for my position. (Either way, such argument is logical fallacy, as the number of believers has no impact on the validity of a position.)

Have a good day, and peace be with you!

Same to you. ^^