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ProdglArchitect
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I appreciate the sermon, and I mostly agree with it; but I have to ask, was this written by the priest of a schismatic sect? He seems to have a profound hatred of VII…
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Fauken
Guest
Most likely. I did a little digging and the website of the guy who posted the video also had quotes from one of the Dimond brothers, who are sedevacantists.
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CatholicSooner
Guest
Easier than a camel going through the eye of a needle
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TotusTuusForever
Guest
I think you both are correct. The issue is that sin hasn’t been defined. To the best of my knowledge, grave material sin that is done without full knowledge is not mortal. However, grave material sin done With full knowledge is mortal and needs repentance lest one loses their place in heaven.
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Here on earth, we are infinitely closer to God’s love than those in hell.
Once in hell, there is no hope, no love possible, no friendship, nothing.
I do not believe anyone entering into hell will become anything more than hateful. That is all they have left.
Of course not. No one chooses suffering.
Suffering is just a consequence of their choice of self over God.
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IsaiahSpirit
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Thank you for your Grace led answers which contain wisdom from JESUS Beloved Savior. Note: Dr. David Anders who is full blown Catholic, who stared ‘Called to Cummunion,’ thank the Catholic Church in a book for being instrumental in saving his marriage; says he used non Catholic writings at times that agree with Catholic teaching to make a point. Peace.
" One problem with universalism is that it imposes human judgment upon God, saying that logically he cannot be perfect love while punishing sinners in hell. However, God himself warns against attributing human standards to him:
" One problem with universalism is that it imposes human judgment upon God, saying that logically he cannot be perfect love while punishing sinners in hell. However, God himself warns against attributing human standards to him:
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ProdglArchitect
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Well, that doesn’t make him wrong, though I do hope it’s not quite as bad as he makes it out to be… Still, looking at the world today, and the number of “Catholics” who teach against what the Church teaches…ProdglArchitect:
Most likely. I did a little digging and the website of the guy who posted the video also had quotes from one of the Dimond brothers, who are sedevacantists.
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Magnanimity
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Sure. They abound on the internet. If you ever get around to reading Von Balthasar’s Dare We Hope, he notes that the most prominent fathers of Vatican 2 all rejected the A/T vision of Hell and were open to the salvation of all, to include Cardinals Danielou, Kasper and De Lubac, as well as Karl Rahner.
As for the Fathers, first, check here. Also, worth your reading would be here and here.
Maybe you’re right. Then again, maybe not. Not only is God the pure act of Existence itself (ipsum esse) but He is also Goodness itself. He is, ultimately, the Goodness toward which our acts and ourselves are oriented–the Source and End of the good. So if Goodness itself is what ever sustains me in existence, I’m not sure how I can cease to be related to the Good.
But also, and this is kind of a gross ramification of Thomism, on the A/T view, God literally holds in existence all those in Hell so that they may continue to be tormented and suffer unendingly. There is nothing in the being of God that would necessitate that He do this. But, He will anyway. There is nothing in contingent being that necessitates its continued existence (no way to move from contingency to necessity). So, God would be continuously choosing to uphold all those being tormented and suffering in this unending state. As I said before, such a reality is an affront to conscience.
As much as I love St Thomas Aquinas, he never gave the necessary argument establishing how (magically) any series of finite acts could entail an infinite punishment. Aquinas gave arguments about the dignity of the one you’re offending (to offend a king is worse than a peasant), then he makes the leap to God. But, as I’ve argued ad nauseam here in CAF, just as my good acts do not magically become infinite in nature because they are directed toward God, so too my bad acts do not become infinite in nature because they are directed toward God. The “justice” of eternal-Hell is the imposing of the sentence on me, the offender, not on God.
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IsaiahSpirit
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One of the saddest things on earth which GOD allows in GOD’s Perfect Providence is false prophets, wolves in sheep’s clothing, white washed tombs full of all manner of corruption, tares among the wheat, written out of The Lamb’s Book of Life; who have no Peace from JESUS; but use honey speech emotionally charged serving their prestige rhetoric and actions to appear to be Godly. Jesus The Christ said they would be among us. And it would get worse at various times in history; with a world wide epidemic of it in the final last days.
Grace always gives an overall journey to turn toward GOD, learn to not justify sin, and overcome the world by The Strength of JESUS.
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” - Daniel 12:2-4
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" At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:1-14
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(note: please! do not give an overly materialistic earthly riches interpretation to this. someone of modest means can give into materialism. And, yes, we are each in the image and likeness of GOD, so whatever state of knowledge someone may be in - GOD, by The Merits of JESUS Christ, provides Grace, to stay on the journey toward GOD, or refuse Grace. Lack of knowledge must be invincible, GOD treats everyone with Perfect Impartial Equity. I’ve seen quotes that seem to claim that lack of knowledge gives a ‘free lunch’ and that they can’t reject GOD. Anyone can refuse to seek Grace, or accept seeking Grace. God is the source of all Grace in Perfect Justice and Mercy.) cont…
Grace always gives an overall journey to turn toward GOD, learn to not justify sin, and overcome the world by The Strength of JESUS.
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” - Daniel 12:2-4
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" At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:1-14
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(note: please! do not give an overly materialistic earthly riches interpretation to this. someone of modest means can give into materialism. And, yes, we are each in the image and likeness of GOD, so whatever state of knowledge someone may be in - GOD, by The Merits of JESUS Christ, provides Grace, to stay on the journey toward GOD, or refuse Grace. Lack of knowledge must be invincible, GOD treats everyone with Perfect Impartial Equity. I’ve seen quotes that seem to claim that lack of knowledge gives a ‘free lunch’ and that they can’t reject GOD. Anyone can refuse to seek Grace, or accept seeking Grace. God is the source of all Grace in Perfect Justice and Mercy.) cont…
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IsaiahSpirit
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" I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!
You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” - Revelation 3:15-22
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" Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:11-14
" And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My [child]." - Revelation 21:5-7
You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” - Revelation 3:15-22
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" Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:11-14
" And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My [child]." - Revelation 21:5-7
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IsaiahSpirit
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" But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And convince some, who doubt; save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen" - Jude 17-25
Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen" - Jude 17-25
catholic03
Well-known member
I mean that for those of us who
But I think if you do the things above then it’s pretty hard to commit a mortal sin. I feel physically sick at the possibility of mortal sin and it isn’t healthy for me to worry about sin too much. I just trust in Jesus.
- do our best to follow Church teaching and are not to our knowledge in mortal sin.
- do not struggle with mortal sins.
But I think if you do the things above then it’s pretty hard to commit a mortal sin. I feel physically sick at the possibility of mortal sin and it isn’t healthy for me to worry about sin too much. I just trust in Jesus.
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ProdglArchitect
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I’m reading the first article, and I already have issues with their interpretation of Paul’s intention in Romans. They say that their cited passages indicate that Paul believed in salvaiton of all people. These passages clearly say that Christ died for all, but that is not the same thing as saying that all will be saved. I will grant them Eph 1:10, but that is literally the only cited passages that reads as endorsing universalism.
Also, the lack of the use of the word Hell is about as spurious a claim as you can make. Jesus never used the word Trinity, but that doesn’t mean He never intended the Trinity in his teaching.
He then, in his section on Clement of Alexandria, adds “(in Hades)” to the quotation. This is disingenuous, as that does not appear in the original writing, which is clearly discussing God’s work in a person’s life, and the repentance and conversion they can undergo while still alive. Given that that is already about a dozen problems with his claims (with the number of overtly-overreaching interpretations of Paul’s writings), and that this represents a willful misrepresentation of Clement’s writings, I see no reason to continue debunking his work, as it is clear he is not interesting in accurately representing the historical evidence.
Considering that this article is written by a man who, in another article, attempts to claim that the bible says nothing about homosexuality, ad that therefore such acts should not be condemned by the Church, forgive me if I think his opinion on any theological topic is laughable at best. (In that article, he uses the same blatantly-spurious lack of specific wording to claim that the concept is not being referenced. This is beyond disingenuous, and is downright deceitful.)
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ProdglArchitect
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Yes, he did. He did so quite clearly. I’ve already outlined it, but I’ll do so again.
On offense derives at least a portion of its severity from the person against whom the offense is committed. It is a greater offense for me to strike my wife than for me to strike a stranger because I have a greater obligation *not to strike my wife than to not strike a stranger. This is due to the nature of the relationship between my wife and me. Similarly, it is a great offense to insult the Pope than to insult a priest, bishop, or layman.
In the same manner, any offense committed against God is of a greater severity than an offense committed against any created being because He is our creator, our sustainer, and our salvation.
Given that the severity of an action is derived in part by the person against whom that action is committed; given that every sin is committed, at least in part, against God; and given that God is infinitely Good; it follows that any sin, being committed against a being that is of infinite goodness and standing would merit a punishment that is likewise infinite in order to satisfy the injustice.
Hence, every sin, no matter how small, being committed against our infinitely good creator, is deserving of infinite punishment purely based on whom the offense is committed against.
You claim you have argued against this, but you haven’t. You have stated that it is wrong and given a faulty counter-example. Our goods do, if we make it to Heaven, merit infinite reward (as the duration of Heaven is infinite), so your premise is faulty. Just as a damned soul is denied the merit of any good action, so a saved soul is forgiven the punishment due for our sins.
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Magnanimity
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Sure, please feel free to stop whenever you’re ready. The only portion of that blogpost that I considered “on point” to what you asked was the following:
That you take issue with that author’s theological interpretation of anything isn’t relevant to me. I wasn’t presenting his blogpost as something I support. You wanted citations for the Fathers. There is your citation. It’s a matter of public record what the early Fathers thought about Hell. There are no secrets in these regards. You can continue this research on your own, if you wish. Or not, the historical record is what it is, irrespective of your knowledge of it.
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ProdglArchitect
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Indeed, it is, and I’ll have to review their writings to read up on it. It is my recollection that many more taught against it than for it, but it’s been a while since I delved into the subject.
Trust me, the thought of not being damned for eternity is a comforting one, I would be quite happy to be proven wrong on this one because I want everyone to be saved and am quite concerned for my own salvation. Unfortunately, I simply cannot reconcile that notion with the warnings Christ gave, nor with the greater testimony of the saints I’ve read, and the testament of damned souls. If there is no difference between Hell and Purgatory, then what is the purpose of Purgatory? If the pains of Purgatory are, as they have historically been described by souls experiencing them, comparable in severity to the pains of Hell, then what distinguishes the two states?
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Magnanimity
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Granted.
Granted.
Non sequitur. You cannot establish how any finite act can result in an infinite consequence. And, it is not relevant whether the act is good or bad. All human acts are, by their very natures, irrespective of the party to whom they are directed, finite. Hence, it is an offense against justice for any finite good or bad to merit any infinite consequence.
The teaching of the church is most certainly alien to any simple calculus of–you did a good thing so you get an infinitely good reward (unending Heaven). You are saved by the grace of God. You do not earn salvation by your good acts. Right?
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Matthew25
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Suffice it to say nobody on here really knows. Love God with everything in you and love your neighbor as yourself. Trust in the mercy of God. Jesus said that he desires mercy not sacrifice. St. Augustine said “love God and do what you will”. Meaning that in loving God you will know what is right to do. And when you don’t, ask for forgiveness. You are not forgiven by a priest. It is God who does the forgiving. Trust that!
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q54332
Guest
I doubt any Catholic wants to go to Hell lol
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