How evolution undermines Salvation

[Catholic_Dude]

I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else. At this point Jesus taking on human nature simply took on a stage of human evolution not a single once and for all defined human nature. Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique because at each extreme only semi-humans exist, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are. It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual but rather now he is simply the first of the monkey men with future men (and somehow women) evolving around him.

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else. At this point Jesus taking on human nature simply took on a stage of human evolution not a single once and for all defined human nature. Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique because at each extreme only semi-humans exist, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are. It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual but rather now he is simply the first of the monkey men with future men (and somehow women) evolving around him.

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.

Hi,

Good points:thumbsup: I think Ill go have a banana–LOL

 

[trth_skr]

I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else. At this point Jesus taking on human nature simply took on a stage of human evolution not a single once and for all defined human nature. Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique because at each extreme only semi-humans exist, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are. It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual but rather now he is simply the first of the monkey men with future men (and somehow women) evolving around him.

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.

Take a look at this:

Communist East Germany: Youth Indoctrination

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[ribozyme]

I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else.

Good job, you really comprehend evolutionary theory. However, there is a problem with that, evolution cannot go on forever because of the second law of thermodynamics.

 

[PhilVaz]

Dude << I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation. >>

Stop thinking about this and stop realizing that.

When the human race ceases to be in 500,000 A.D., and as in the documentary movie A.I. the Robots have taken over, Jesus will come back a third time as a Robot. Just kidding. God’s image doesn’t have to do with our physical appearance (Catechism CCC 355-357).

“We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the ‘project’ of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.” (Cardinal Ratzinger, In The Beginning…)

1. The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers…

Evolution overmines the faith, not undermines.

Phil P

 

[Rawb]

I would think that the difference is that physical bodies evolve, but the soul doesn’t, and it is our soul which is created in the image of God. Our souls are eternal, so your soul, and my soul, are every bit as ‘evolved’ as Adam’s was/is. Evolution is to do with genes and mutations, the physical, while our soul is spiritual.

Not to create a division between the two in the sense of gnosticism, just suggesting that our temporal physical bodies can evolve, but our soul, which is immortal, wouldn’t.

Does that work?

 

[Durendin]

Not to create a division between the two in the sense of gnosticism, just suggesting that our temporal physical bodies can evolve, but our soul, which is immortal, wouldn’t.

Does that work?

To be honest, I think that’s possibly the most logical way of putting it that I’ve ever heard!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I would think that the difference is that physical bodies evolve, but the soul doesn’t, and it is our soul which is created in the image of God. Our souls are eternal, so your soul, and my soul, are every bit as ‘evolved’ as Adam’s was/is. Evolution is to do with genes and mutations, the physical, while our soul is spiritual.

Not to create a division between the two in the sense of gnosticism, just suggesting that our temporal physical bodies can evolve, but our soul, which is immortal, wouldn’t.

Does that work?

A human is a person comprised of both body and soul, there never was a time when a monkey had a human soul. Our immortal souls were created at the moment of conception, a monkey or semi-human by definition cant have a human soul because they are less than human.

 

[Ghosty]

A human is a person comprised of both body and soul, there never was a time when a monkey had a human soul. Our immortal souls were created at the moment of conception, a monkey or semi-human by definition cant have a human soul because they are less than human.

But the human soul is what MAKES the human body a human body in the first place. There is no such thing as a human body apart from the human soul, so your argument doesn’t hold.

Even if the human body continued to evolve, as it has in the cases of racial differentiation, the substance of humanity does not change. While it takes a body and soul to make a human, it does not follow that this particular kind of DNA and a human soul makes a human being, as every individual already has individual DNA anyway.

Racial changes are relatively minute compared to what would constitute a complete species alteration, but there’s nothing that says that every species must continue to evolve into a new species. In fact, we have living animals on this planet that biologically predate entire classes of animals, and also outlived them, yet have demonstrated no obvious evolution for hundreds of millions of years. Aside from critters like the coelocanth, there are many other “living fossils” like certain sharks and crocodiles. There is no reason to believe that evolution is a constant forward force, and every reason to believe that for many species it simply “stops” when looking at the span of history. Some of these species end up dying out, such as many kinds of dinosaurs, and others persist to this very day and show all indications of continuing to persist indefinately, as in the case of sharks.

There’s no reason why humans couldn’t also fall into this category of never-changing species.

 

[steveandersen]

Catholic Dude

Even YECs will admit that humans have evolved as evidenced by the geographically based adaptations we call “race”

And a strict interpretation of some cladistics would suggest that things never stop being what they were even as they evolve. e.g. birds are still dinosaurs, humans are still chordates, etc

So I don’t see a conflict. As others pointed out it is our souls that were made in God’s image.

(What’s the old joke? This is Adam. He was made in God’s image. God is actually much better looking; He just had a bad mirror.)

Good job, you really comprehend evolutionary theory. However, there is a problem with that, evolution cannot go on forever because of the second law of thermodynamics.

You’ve lost me on that one.

 

[VociMike]

Good job, you really comprehend evolutionary theory. However, there is a problem with that, evolution cannot go on forever because of the second law of thermodynamics.

Not forever, but what is to prevent humanity from evolving as far from current homo sapiens as we are from a marsupial?

 

[Darrel]

I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else. At this point Jesus taking on human nature simply took on a stage of human evolution not a single once and for all defined human nature. Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique because at each extreme only semi-humans exist, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are. It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual but rather now he is simply the first of the monkey men with future men (and somehow women) evolving around him.

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.

Science needs to stick with developing medical break throughs and new forms of technology. When it comes to the larger questions of the universe it is generaly just to arrogant to admit that is doesnt know squat. I was reading about the so called “multi-verse” recently. People should just call science fiction, science fiction.

-D

 

[Darrel]

Man has de-evolved from immortal to mortal. This is why we are a thousand times smarter then anything else on the planet.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

-D

 

[Orionthehunter]

I am one who is really not very concerned whether or not God used evolution or not in His mechanism of creation. Whether He did or not doesn’t change two facts: All that exists was created by God ex nihilio (out of nothing) and that we are made in His image.

Keep in mind that it is not our physical characteristics that are made in God’s image but our spiritual characteristics. No matter how much future “evolving” happens between now and the 2nd coming, our eternal spiritual characteristics remain the same and still in God’s image.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else. At this point Jesus taking on human nature simply took on a stage of human evolution not a single once and for all defined human nature. Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique because at each extreme only semi-humans exist, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are. It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual but rather now he is simply the first of the monkey men with future men (and somehow women) evolving around him.

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.

A chimpanzee has no concept of moral behaviour. Chimpanzees not infrequently kill rival members of their group, and this is not murder, it is simply the way these animals behave when they vie for dominance.

Humans also kill each other, and not so very infrequently, but the action is almost always accompanied by a wave of accusations, justifications, counter-accusations, denails and so forth. Humans do have a concept of moral behaviour.

Now our understanding of evolution is that there probably wouldn’t be a sharp transition from amoral to moral behaviour, becasue the brain, like the body, evolves in tiny steps. However we don’t know that for sure, it may have been that the first moral action released something, allowing humans to become qualitatively different from apes. The argument from steady transition is based on an unproven assumption.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Catholic Dude

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.

How do we know we are going to evolve into something else? And **if **we do, how do we know we will not still have to account to almighty God for whatever else we might become?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

But the human soul is what MAKES the human body a human body in the first place. There is no such thing as a human body apart from the human soul, so your argument doesn’t hold.

No such thing apart from the soul…what about death? It shows there is a separation of body and soul and the body is clearly human. Either we are agreeing on this or else what your saying is that the only thing different between a monkey body and a human body is the soul? I dont believe monkeys ever had a human soul.

Even if the human body continued to evolve, as it has in the cases of racial differentiation, the substance of humanity does not change. While it takes a body and soul to make a human, it does not follow that this particular kind of DNA and a human soul makes a human being, as every individual already has individual DNA anyway.

Different combinations of dna is what makes each body unique, however its still human dna, not monkey.

Racial changes are relatively minute compared to what would constitute a complete species alteration, but there’s nothing that says that every species must continue to evolve into a new species. In fact, we have living animals on this planet that biologically predate entire classes of animals, and also outlived them, yet have demonstrated no obvious evolution for hundreds of millions of years. Aside from critters like the coelocanth, there are many other “living fossils” like certain sharks and crocodiles. There is no reason to believe that evolution is a constant forward force, and every reason to believe that for many species it simply “stops” when looking at the span of history. Some of these species end up dying out, such as many kinds of dinosaurs, and others persist to this very day and show all indications of continuing to persist indefinately, as in the case of sharks.

The “stop” is totally unexplainable. To stop either means extinction or perfection, however perfection isnt in the evolution handbook. It brings to mind the protestant term “semper reformanda”, always reforming, I tell them just keep reforming and one day you might get it right, they on the otherhand see their current status as perfected without realizing the conflict with the concept of semper reformanda.

As for the claim some things havnt evoloved for hundreds of millions of years, such information goes against evolution because it shows there is no evolution taking place.

There’s no reason why humans couldn’t also fall into this category of never-changing species.

But it isnt science to arbitrarily put humans into such a category, your data only gives evidence that certain things havnt evolved over the hundred million years and humans are not part of it, infact evolution claims human evolution was active over that timespan giving no scientific grounds to say it stopped recently.

 

[Strider]

I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else. At this point Jesus taking on human nature simply took on a stage of human evolution not a single once and for all defined human nature. Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique because at each extreme only semi-humans exist, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are. It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual but rather now he is simply the first of the monkey men with future men (and somehow women) evolving around him.

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.

I’m sorry, but this entire post displays a shocking (for 2006) ignorance of evolution.
Humans are no longer evolving. There is no pressure to evolve in any particular direction; there are WAAAAY too many of us, and the line between monkey and man was drawn long before monkey or man existed.
When God allowed Adam to be born from some very closely related species (Neanderthal?), he breathed a human soul into him and THAT was Adam, the first human.
"Image and Likeness;’ refers to our abilities to reason, love, etc. Evolution, CORRECTLY understood, does not violate ANY dogma or doctrine of the Church.
Truth cannot contradict truth. Where science is true, there can be no conflict.

 

[Ghosty]

No such thing apart from the soul…what about death? It shows there is a separation of body and soul and the body is clearly human. Either we are agreeing on this or else what your saying is that the only thing different between a monkey body and a human body is the soul? I dont believe monkeys ever had a human soul.

Strictly speaking, a “human body” is not human, but a corpse. It is human accidently, in that it shares accidental traits like DNA, but it is not at all substantially human. The soul is the substantial form of the body; when the soul departs, a literal transubstantiation occurs. This is basic Scholastic theology covered in the Summa Theologica.

There are accidental differences between a human corpse and a monkey corpse, but the their substantial forms are neither human nor monkey.

As for the claim some things havnt evoloved for hundreds of millions of years, such information goes against evolution because it shows there is no evolution taking place.

You don’t seem to understand evolutionary theory, else you wouldn’t make such a basic mistake. Without evolutionary “pressures”, there is no need for change in certain species. Crocodilians and various sharks have found a niche in the environment that is relatively unaffected by the various environmental changes that the Earth has undergone, and therefore have no pressure to further adapt. Evolution is not merely some random mutation that is constantly occuring, it is a process in which mutation occurs and survives when it is well-suited to the environmental factors.

Since humans can not only control environmental factors, but also create new ones specifically suited to our needs, there is little reason to believe that we would undergo any appreciable evolution beyond racial.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Humans are no longer evolving. There is no pressure to evolve in any particular direction; there are WAAAAY too many of us, and the line between monkey and man was drawn long before monkey or man existed.

How can there be no pressure to evolve, we are faced with threats every day from pollution to disease to war to basic issues like failing eyesight?
I see no relation to this and how many people there are, if anything it would go to prove who really is more fit for survival should a major global disaster hit, or better yet the need to evolve should over-population conditions get out of hand.

When God allowed Adam to be born from some very closely related species (Neanderthal?), he breathed a human soul into him and THAT was Adam, the first human.

But the fact remains if evolution is correct other Adams and Eves would have been evolving all around him, hence making Adam no longer unique and father of all.

Strictly speaking, a “human body” is not human, but a corpse. It is human accidently, in that it shares accidental traits like DNA, but it is not at all substantially human. The soul is the substantial form of the body; when the soul departs, a literal transubstantiation occurs. This is basic Scholastic theology covered in the Summa Theologica.

I would be interested to read more about this, (if I can handle the level of reading). Also what does St Thomas have to say about creation, especially of man?

You don’t seem to understand evolutionary theory, else you wouldn’t make such a basic mistake. Without evolutionary “pressures”, there is no need for change in certain species. Crocodilians and various sharks have found a niche in the environment that is relatively unaffected by the various environmental changes that the Earth has undergone, and therefore have no pressure to further adapt.

I guess I dont know what you mean by “pressures”. What happens when water temperature changes, sea food becomes scarce, water pollution, game hunting (leading to extinction)? Its very hard to believe (or even prove) the environment they live in has been reletively constant all this time.

Evolution is not merely some random mutation that is constantly occuring, it is a process in which mutation occurs and survives when it is well-suited to the environmental factors.

And I question the likelyhood of such an evironment remaining constant allowing the human to never need to evolve, that pretty much presupposes the environmental factors will not change. The reality is the environment is always changing because everything is interrelated at some degree or another.

Since humans can not only control environmental factors, but also create new ones specifically suited to our needs, there is little reason to believe that we would undergo any appreciable evolution beyond racial.

But our environment is anything but constant, we are faced with threats every day. We cant get rid of every disease or threat. On top of that through secular glasses there is such a thing as a superior (more advanced) race and it isnt uncommon for one race to attack another even causing extinction or mass migration.