How evolution undermines Salvation

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Humans are no longer evolving.
Humans are currently evolving resistance to the various forms of malaria, resistance to HIV, resistance to the effects of too rich a diet and many other things. The selection pressures have changed since we were hunter-gatherers, but there are still selection pressures and we are still evolving in response to them.

rossum
 
Its very hard to believe (or even prove) the environment they live in has been reletively constant all this time.
Their environment hasn’t remained constant. Rather, their biological forms are such that radical changes in the environment that might kill off other life forms completely, and/or push evolution in other life forms, don’t affect them as much. In other words they are like a solid boulder that remains on the landscape in a windstorm, while the pebbles and dust are blown around. Their forms are so well suited for survival that there’s nothing to “improve on” through most environmental changes.

Humans occupy a very unique place, evolutionarily speaking, because despite the relative “frailty” of our physical forms, we are able to do things that other animals can’t in order to survive environmental changes. We build different kinds of houses, wear different kinds of clothes, even adapt culturally to our surroundings. The adaptation that takes place physically in other animals takes place non-physically in us, with the notable yet biologically insignificant exception of racial modifications (which actually seem to cause very little alteration in the actual genetic code, as there are groups in Africa that live side by side and look quite similar, yet one of those groups might be much more close to Europeans, genetically, than to their neighbor). Perhaps as a result, humans have a very homogenous genetic code, meaning that the degree of genetic variation within our species is quite small compared to other individual species; the genes of a man from England and those of a Native Australian Aborigine are likely closer than two house-cats.

In short, both humans and crocodiles are able to survive relatively drastic changes. Humans by our mental adaptability, and sharks because of their relatively “rock-solid” forms.
But the fact remains if evolution is correct other Adams and Eves would have been evolving all around him, hence making Adam no longer unique and father of all.
This isn’t a necessary conclusion of evolution at all. The human soul can’t be “evolved”, it must be given by God directly, so there couldn’t be any other Adam and Eve’s “evolving”. From an evolutionary stand point, God could have simply allowed His world, working by His own design and transcendent causality (not requiring direct “efficient causality”, contrary to what Intelligent Design advocates insist) intervention to produce the precise physical form He wanted, and then directly and miraculously provided a new kind of soul to two members of this species. All true humans would have to be descended from these two, but there could be animals prior to them (and perhaps for a time afterwards) that were physically very similar, or even identical. No matter how physically similar these other animals might have been, they remained utterly distinct from true humans in a spiritual sense.

There is no need to appeal to “Intelligent Design”, nor to deny evolutionary theory outright, to come to this conclusion that keeps completely within Catholic orthodoxy and preserves everything required of Salvation theology.

As for a Thomistic treatment of the soul and body, I recommend questions 75, 76, 90, and 91 of the First Part of the Summa. This article on “form” from the Catholic Encyclopedia might prove useful as well. Aquinas builds off of Aristotle’s “The Soul”, so if you can find a good summary of that it might help. Remember, though, that Aquinas’ views are generally dogmatic in themselves, although some of them have been dogmatized.

Peace and God bless!
 
I, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? .
nothing in the theory of evolution says that man evolved from monkeys. this is a legitimate topic of debate, but worthless if we are not debating what the theory actually proposes. Why don’t we restate the argument based on what Darwin actually wrote and begin from there.
 
Humans are currently evolving resistance to the various forms of malaria, resistance to HIV, resistance to the effects of too rich a diet and many other things. The selection pressures have changed since we were hunter-gatherers, but there are still selection pressures and we are still evolving in response to them.

rossum
This is true, just as racial variations continue to occur. I think Strider was refering to speciation, however, which is likely to not occur in the human branch any more.

Peace and God bless!
 
SPECIALIST (NARRATOR)

…I often felt a sort of envy of human beings and that thing they call “spirit.” Human beings had created a million explanations of the meaning of life in art, in poetry, in mathematical formulas. Certainly, human beings must be the key to the meaning of existence, but human beings no longer existed.

So, we began a project that would make it possible to recreate the living body of a person long dead from the DNA in a fragment of bone or mummified skin. We also wondered, would it be possible to retrieve a memory trace in resonance with a recreated body. And do you know what we found? We found… the very fabric of space-time itself appeared to store information about every event which had ever occured in the past.

But the experiment… was a failure. For those who were resurrected only lived through a single day of renewed life. When the resurrectees fell asleep on the night of their first new day, they died, again. As soon as they became unconscious, their very existence faded away into darkness.

Sorry I keep thinking about that movie. 🙂

Phil P
 
OP, I believe you misread the story of Adam and Eve. I dont think it was ever to bbe taken literally but allegorically.

Why even the name Adam translated means mankind. Adam was only a figure representing all of mankind.😉
 
OP, I believe you misread the story of Adam and Eve. I dont think it was ever to bbe taken literally but allegorically.

Why even the name Adam translated means mankind. Adam was only a figure representing all of mankind.😉
Maybe the fact that Adam translated means “mankind” is because Adam was honored by having his name designated to represent mankind, he being the father of mankind.

Israel was named after Jacob.

What came first the Hebrew language or Adam?

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.

There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else. At this point Jesus taking on human nature simply took on a stage of human evolution not a single once and for all defined human nature. Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique because at each extreme only semi-humans exist, for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image? Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are. It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual but rather now he is simply the first of the monkey men with future men (and somehow women) evolving around him.

As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.
Human beings don’t grow, change, or evolve! Come on! That would mean that the Church’s teaching on what’s “natural” or not could change. And, as all Catholics know, the Church never changes. How do we know that the Church never changes? Because God never changes. How do we know that human beings never change? Because human beings are made in the image of God. How do we know that human beings are made in the image of God? Because human beings don’t change - just like God.

It’s so simple. You’re just thinking about it too hard.
 
OP, I believe you misread the story of Adam and Eve. I dont think it was ever to bbe taken literally but allegorically.
The story of Adam and Eve might be allegorical, but the fact that one male and one female existed, commited original sin, are the parents of the entire human race is not one of those optional beliefs. Modern research into genetic ancestry has only tended to agree with this fact anyway, so I really don’t see what the point in arguing about this in the first place is.

Now, as for the original post:
I have been thinking about this and realized that evolution undermines God’s plan of salvation.
Wrong. Sorry, but no, it doesn’t. It can’t.
Working both back in time and in to the future evolution means man isnt unique…
Man has a spiritual soul. Animals don’t. Man is still just as unique as he ever was.
for example where was the line drawn between monkey and man, and at what point was that individual created in God’s image?
The moment at which God infused a rational/spiritual soul into Adam.
Monkeys are not created in God’s image, only full humans are.
Yes. Because monkeys don’t have spiritual souls. They aren’t persons.
It also undermines the fact Adam was a unique individual…
Again, no. Adam recieved a spiritual soul, which other animals do not have.
As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.
No, because even if man did evolve into something else (take an example such as X-Men if you wish), then that event still would have had to fall under the realm of Divine Providence. Such men, while genetically different, would still be rational persons, descended from Adam, with spiritual souls that are capable of knowing and loving God.

Being made in “the image of God” means being a person, which results from the unique spiritual soul being infused by God.

Evolution is a fact. It happened. Everyone on this thread needs to pick up and read a copy of FINDING DARWIN’S GOD BY KENNETH MILLER. Links provided in my signature below.
 
I finally got the time to get up to date on this thread.
God’s image doesn’t have to do with our physical appearance (Catechism CCC 355-357).
But the human person, body and soul is unique. The “body” if evolved was simpy a phase in the evolution.
Also, I read those paragraphs and came up with a new question, “male and female He created them”…how does evolution explain male and female?
“We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. … To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.” (Cardinal Ratzinger, In The Beginning…)
Overall I thought this was a good article, I accept evolution exists to a degree but to what extent does it go? The article didnt explain.
Evolution overmines the faith, not undermines.
Here are some important quotes I saw:29. The central dogmas of the Christian faith imply that the body is an intrinsic part of the human person and thus participates in his being created in the image of God. … Finally, that the body belongs essentially to the human person is inherent to the doctrine of the resurrection of the body at the end of time, which implies that man exists in eternity as a complete physical and spiritual person.
  1. These biblical, doctrinal and philosophical indications converge in the affirmation that human bodiliness participates in the imago Dei. If the soul, created in God’s image, forms matter to constitute the human body, then the human person as a whole is the bearer of the divine image in a spiritual as well as a bodily dimension.
    According to evolution the human was conceived in a sub-human. The body at that point is merely a cardboard box housing a soul.
  2. According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the “Big Bang” and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Im not sure how “dogmatic” this document is but stuff like this is pure conjecture and popular opionon (neither are grounds for official teaching).Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism.
    Not really. For example take the elements on the periodic table, all object are made up of these elements but that doesnt mean they derive from a single element. Infact it is most improbable to say everything evolved out of a single organism because it defies the notion that matter cant be created from nothing.Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.
    I agree, there is truth to evolution (eg “diversificaiton”) but there are also limits which science must make clear what is theory and what is fact. Its good that this document admits there is much controversy here.While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens.
    Im pretty sure Genesis describes Eden being in or near Messopotamia and mentions the Tigris and Euphrates, not the Nile or other African rivers.With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
    So are factors such as consciousness a result of God’s Image or a development in sub image creatures? Id like to see how evolution explains that one.
 
Their environment hasn’t remained constant. Rather, their biological forms are such that radical changes in the environment that might kill off other life forms completely, and/or push evolution in other life forms, don’t affect them as much. In other words they are like a solid boulder that remains on the landscape in a windstorm, while the pebbles and dust are blown around. Their forms are so well suited for survival that there’s nothing to “improve on” through most environmental changes.
While I agree with this to an extent I see no evidence it can occur over such a long timespan. Your describing a top of the food chain type creature, however for somereason when the lower ends of the food chain disappear or are altered somehow the top doesnt need to change? Also in regards to factors such as temperature, I know of no creature that can live in any of the spans of temperatures in the ocean.
Humans occupy a very unique place, evolutionarily speaking, because despite the relative “frailty” of our physical forms, we are able to do things that other animals can’t in order to survive environmental changes. We build different kinds of houses, wear different kinds of clothes, even adapt culturally to our surroundings. …
I agree, humans are so unique that there is literally nothing in nature to compare them. One thing that is interesting is that we have not only the ability to create life (ie evolution a la carte) in a lab but even destroy the planet. Im not sure how evolution provides for such intelligence.
In short, both humans and crocodiles are able to survive relatively drastic changes. Humans by our mental adaptability, and sharks because of their relatively “rock-solid” forms.
That actually brings to mind a very interesting point, humans are so superior we can at will make animals go extinct (eg hunting and pollution). In my mind there is no comparison to the superiority of humans over animals, a superiority that evolution alone cant account for.
This isn’t a necessary conclusion of evolution at all. The human soul can’t be “evolved”, it must be given by God directly, so there couldn’t be any other Adam and Eve’s “evolving”. From an evolutionary stand point, God could have simply allowed His world, working by His own design and transcendent causality (not requiring direct “efficient causality”, contrary to what Intelligent Design advocates insist) intervention to produce the precise physical form He wanted, and then directly and miraculously provided a new kind of soul to two members of this species. All true humans would have to be descended from these two, but there could be animals prior to them (and perhaps for a time afterwards) that were physically very similar, or even identical. No matter how physically similar these other animals might have been, they remained utterly distinct from true humans in a spiritual sense.
Thats a discontinuity that science cant explain if God has to step in and stop the evolution. More over how do you explain a human person was conceived in a sub-human?
There is no need to appeal to “Intelligent Design”, nor to deny evolutionary theory outright, to come to this conclusion that keeps completely within Catholic orthodoxy and preserves everything required of Salvation theology.
Thats just it though, at this point theology/philosphy steps in and science is either left without an explanation or its explanation is ignored.
The mainstream scientists who push for evolution (as scientifically provable at all stages) would never allow your conclusions.
As for a Thomistic treatment of the soul and body, I recommend questions 75, 76, 90, and 91 of the First Part of the Summa. This article on “form” from the Catholic Encyclopedia might prove useful as well. Aquinas builds off of Aristotle’s “The Soul”, so if you can find a good summary of that it might help. Remember, though, that Aquinas’ views are generally dogmatic in themselves, although some of them have been dogmatized.
Those are pretty long pages, I will have to read them tomorrow.
nothing in the theory of evolution says that man evolved from monkeys. this is a legitimate topic of debate, but worthless if we are not debating what the theory actually proposes. Why don’t we restate the argument based on what Darwin actually wrote and begin from there.
All I have ever heard is that we evolved from apes or further developed sub-humans. What did he actually write in regards to man, Im interested to know. As far as I could tell the document I read above condemned an openly atheistic position called “neo-Darwinism” where God doesnt have a place in the equation at all.
 
Your describing a top of the food chain type creature, however for somereason when the lower ends of the food chain disappear or are altered somehow the top doesnt need to change? Also in regards to factors such as temperature, I know of no creature that can live in any of the spans of temperatures in the ocean.
I don’t understand the last part of your statement about ocean temperatures.

As for the food chain, that’s an outmoded idea that really doesn’t have much place in evolutionary science. Some creatures are very locked in to what they can eat, so that if there is a disturbance in the environment that kills off their food, they will die. Other creatures can, and will, eat just about anything; sharks, humans, and crocodiles fall into this category. As long as there is animal matter to consume (or just plant matter in the case of humans), these guys will survive.
That actually brings to mind a very interesting point, humans are so superior we can at will make animals go extinct (eg hunting and pollution). In my mind there is no comparison to the superiority of humans over animals, a superiority that evolution alone cant account for.
Right, there is no solid evolutionary account of the development of a rational mind, especially if the rational mind is immaterial as I believe it must be even philosophically (of course I believe through Faith that the rational soul is immaterial and created directly by God). It is the rational soul that gives this intellectual capacity to humans, not merely the biological matter in between our ears.
Thats a discontinuity that science cant explain if God has to step in and stop the evolution. More over how do you explain a human person was conceived in a sub-human?
God wouldn’t have to step in and stop evolution. These non-immortal human animals could have reached an equilibrium like the shark and crocodile. On the other hand, evolution could have ceased due to the infusion of the immaterial rational soul and the capacity to change the environment that comes with it. Either way God didn’t have to “stop” evolution by any direct intervention, it could have “stopped” due to secondary factors such as the infusion of the soul, or it could have “stopped” beforehand due to the animal-humans reaching a point where they would no longer need to change much to adapt to their environment.
Thats just it though, at this point theology/philosphy steps in and science is either left without an explanation or its explanation is ignored.
The mainstream scientists who push for evolution (as scientifically provable at all stages) would never allow your conclusions.
Of course. I never advocate a “pure empiricle science” without the influence of at least philosophy. That’s a relatively new idea, post-dating Darwin’s work in popularity, and one that is increasingly untenable. Evolution as an idea doesn’t have to utilized only by those who would ignore the reality of philosophical questions.

Peace and God bless!
 
I would think that the difference is that physical bodies evolve, but the soul doesn’t, and it is our soul which is created in the image of God. Our souls are eternal, so your soul, and my soul, are every bit as ‘evolved’ as Adam’s was/is. Evolution is to do with genes and mutations, the physical, while our soul is spiritual.

Not to create a division between the two in the sense of gnosticism, just suggesting that our temporal physical bodies can evolve, but our soul, which is immortal, wouldn’t.

Does that work?
Nope. Because you are creating a division where one does not exist. You are a soul with a body (gnostic) you are a soul and a body. One is not more you than the other. That is what makes death so awful, the seperation of what was never meant to be divided. Macro-evolution does undermine the dignity of those who are made, in the image of God. And respectfully, you just proved it. To embrace evolution we must deny the uniqueness of how God created us.
 
Wrong. Sorry, but no, it doesn’t. It can’t.

Man has a spiritual soul. Animals don’t. Man is still just as unique as he ever was.

The moment at which God infused a rational/spiritual soul into Adam.

Yes. Because monkeys don’t have spiritual souls. They aren’t persons.

Again, no. Adam recieved a spiritual soul, which other animals do not have.
Of this just undermines theology this idea creates a type of new gnosticism and this idea that man was later infused with a soul is simply a brand new “doctrine” to try and haronize what really cannot be. Man was created by God, as man not from the animal kingdom that flies in the face of the fact scripture emphasizes, the unique creation of man entirely seperate from the animals. Not just his soul since we are not just souls. This demeans the human body and makes it mere souls infused meat. A completely unbiblical, unpatristic and un-catholic idea. Physically and spiritually we are sperated form creation from the animal. We are and always have been of a different “kind”. Man came into existence as a unique species. You cannot be a unique species if you are really just and ensouled super-monkey. It does not work theologically.

Intellectual honesty demands we make a choice, go along with the conclusions of this theory’s proponents in the scientific community and become atheist or deists at best or trust revelation, keep the faith in it’s integrity and recognize that “science” is missing something and that the data is incomplete in a major way. If you are going to buy what they are selling rather then being selective about it by trying to Christianize something that is un-Christian in it’s conclusions, as seen by the new theology built around evolution, then by all means buy it completely or treat it with the scepticism you would any other atheistic theory. If I were to ever see a slam dunk for evolution (yes I have read everything TalkOrigins etc. has to offer - not impressed, way too much sophistry and presumption) I would be forced to no longer be a Christian. As it is I am not worried that that will ever happen.

So to repeat, those created in God’s image are not merely ensouled super monkeys.

Peace,

Mel
 
Originally posted by Catholic Dude: There is nothing about evolution that says after man comes around evolution must stop, rather man must keep evolving as should everything else … As for the future, what happens when man evolves into something else? They are no longer created in God’s image nor are they under the salvation plan.
I’m being lazy this evening and haven’t read any other responses. This is just my two cents:

I believe that Evolution can stop and that Man has stopped evolving.

I believe in GUIDED EVOLUTION, that there is no such thing as chance, that every creature has a purpose in God’s plan. Even the Dinos had a purpose, though I cannot say what it was for certain. Maybe God was just messing around. Who knows.

As far as Man goes, I believe Adam and Eve were the first Homo Sapiens, the first creatures made in the image and likeness of God. I believe the evolution of Man stops with Homo Sapiens because God wants it to. Man is God’s masterpiece.

Evolution doesn’t undermine Salvation if seen in this light.

Perhaps we should use another term in place of “Evolution” because this term implies Creation growing and changing outside a Creative influence. Perhaps a better term might be — Creavolution? Or Renovationism?** Divine Remodelling**? I dunno. LOL!!! Anyone else?

God Bless!
 
you don’t think that a rational mind has an evolutinary advantage?

:confused:
I don’t think a rational mind can be accounted for physically, therefore evolution doesn’t come into play. While a rational mind certainly provides an advantage for survival, without it being physically based it’s outside the bounds of evolutionary factors.

Peace and God bless!
 
I don’t think a rational mind can be accounted for physically, therefore evolution doesn’t come into play. While a rational mind certainly provides an advantage for survival, without it being physically based it’s outside the bounds of evolutionary factors.

Peace and God bless!
:confused:

I’m not sure what you are saying.

Physical damage to the brain affects rationality
This is clearly an indication that a rational mind can (in part at least) be accounted for physically.
 
:confused:

I’m not sure what you are saying.

Physical damage to the brain affects rationality
This is clearly an indication that a rational mind can (in part at least) be accounted for physically.
That an immaterial soul works through a body doesn’t mean that it is ultimately material. All that indicates is that the immaterial soul operates through physical mediums, and even requires them for certain operations, just like a carpenter requires a hammer to fully actualize his carpentry skills, but the hammer is not the cause of the carpenter. A faulty hammer, or a lack of one, will inhibit the carpenter’s use of skills, but it doesn’t take them away.

Peace and God bless!
 
That an immaterial soul works through a body doesn’t mean that it is ultimately material. All that indicates is that the immaterial soul operates through physical mediums, and even requires them for certain operations, just like a carpenter requires a hammer to fully actualize his carpentry skills, but the hammer is not the cause of the carpenter. A faulty hammer, or a lack of one, will inhibit the carpenter’s use of skills, but it doesn’t take them away.

Peace and God bless!
I’m uncomfortable with the notion of the body as merely a tool for the soul.

My understanding is that we are creatures of both body and soul and that they are equal parts of the whole.
 
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