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Orogeny
Guest
Well, since it isn’t and no one is suggesting that it should be, what is your point?
No more than chemistry is man’s invention. You don’t seem to think much of God’s ability.
You don’t understand the science of evolution or marketing.
Could you please find a quote from anyone on this forum that claims the dignity of the human person comes from science?
Peace
Tim
O
Orogeny
Guest
Hmm. I didn’t think you believed in giving references to textbooks.
But since you are asking Barbarian for a citation to a textbook, please do him courtesy of giving a citation of a biology textbook that says there is no God or that God isn’t involved in evolution.
Again, you show that you don’t even understand what science does. What part of science, any science, addresses divine providence? How is that tested? How is it falsified? Divine providence is not part of science.
I’m sorry, Ed. I don’t believe you follow science at all. I think you read forums on the internet and follow any YEC argument out there. You haven’t shown any evidence of even understanding basic science. Of any kind.
You do seem to be good at writing fiction about science, though.
Peace
Tim
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wildleafblower
Guest
The Barbarian said in message 232, (1) “As you see, scientists applaud Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul for saying that science is not, and should not be, about the supernatural.”(1)
Barbarian, neither our current Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul II said as you have stated that ‘science is not, and should not be, about the supernatural’.
This is what has been noted regarding the supernatural.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE “I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”
CHAPTER TWO GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
Article 2 THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
IN BRIEF
96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory.
97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.
98 “The Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes” (DV 8 # 1).
99 Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation.
100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PN.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PN.HTM
I have a supernatural faith in God and love Jesus!
And know that evolution is a fact not because of my faith in God but science is truth and my faith is supernatural.
Barbarian, neither our current Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul II said as you have stated that ‘science is not, and should not be, about the supernatural’.
This is what has been noted regarding the supernatural.Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE “I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”
CHAPTER TWO GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
Article 2 THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
IN BRIEF
96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory.
97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.
98 “The Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes” (DV 8 # 1).
99 Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation.
100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PN.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PN.HTM
I have a supernatural faith in God and love Jesus!
And know that evolution is a fact not because of my faith in God but science is truth and my faith is supernatural.
E
edwest2
Guest
“science is truth”? Would that more people would direct themselves to the truths revealed by God. Science is men groping in the dark for answers to questions. They try to discover what God already knows. The writings of men of science are not sacred or holy or above the word of God. They are men’s best guesses of what is going on around them.
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the light. Science, in this case, is being exploited for propaganda purposes. Science is truth? “He’s as honest as the day is long.”? That’s a slogan.
God bless,
Ed
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the light. Science, in this case, is being exploited for propaganda purposes. Science is truth? “He’s as honest as the day is long.”? That’s a slogan.
God bless,
Ed
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davidv
Guest
Who said it was. True science searches for truth, though not “the Truth” (aka Jesus).
What if some truths are revealed through the sciences?
If only God know it, how will it be of any use to us?
Who said they are sacred or holy or above God? Particularly in regard to the Church’s constant teaching of the proper use of science.
How does using something incorrectly make the that something unacceptable. Just be because someone uses a kitchen knife to kill someone, does that mean I cannot have one in my kitchen to slice onions?
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edwest2
Guest
David,
I suggest you google the term culture war. When some Hutus and Tutsis in Africa massacred one another, they were egged on by radio broadcasts calling one of the tribes cockroaches. In Vietnam, psychological warfare soldiers set up a radio station and published a newspaper. In the United States, based on Darwin’s teaching, the Supreme Court was convinced to pass a law that led to the forced sterilization of imbeciles and those deemed unworthy to allow into the gene pool.
Evolutionary theory is being used to “explain” religion, behavior and other socio-cultural phenomena. Man is reduced to a bag of chemicals and is called as natural as salt crystals. You are an animal, nothing more. You have value, perhaps, as a potential source of spare parts or genetic material. As a bag of chemicals, your worth is measured only by your lifetime earnings potential, and your time spent as a laborer or soldier.
The point is, your identity is wrapped up in this. Science is not some little gleaming cube of knowledge that someone uses to solve a military or industrial problem, it is inherently atheistic, and therefore, it is a tool for social manipulation as well.
You may disagree with that, but that is the problem. In the meantime, thousands of scientists went to work today, unhindered by any comments made here.
God bless,
Ed
I suggest you google the term culture war. When some Hutus and Tutsis in Africa massacred one another, they were egged on by radio broadcasts calling one of the tribes cockroaches. In Vietnam, psychological warfare soldiers set up a radio station and published a newspaper. In the United States, based on Darwin’s teaching, the Supreme Court was convinced to pass a law that led to the forced sterilization of imbeciles and those deemed unworthy to allow into the gene pool.
Evolutionary theory is being used to “explain” religion, behavior and other socio-cultural phenomena. Man is reduced to a bag of chemicals and is called as natural as salt crystals. You are an animal, nothing more. You have value, perhaps, as a potential source of spare parts or genetic material. As a bag of chemicals, your worth is measured only by your lifetime earnings potential, and your time spent as a laborer or soldier.
The point is, your identity is wrapped up in this. Science is not some little gleaming cube of knowledge that someone uses to solve a military or industrial problem, it is inherently atheistic, and therefore, it is a tool for social manipulation as well.
You may disagree with that, but that is the problem. In the meantime, thousands of scientists went to work today, unhindered by any comments made here.
God bless,
Ed
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davidv
Guest
Pretty judgement of me, don’t you think. You know nearly nothing of my identity and what it is wrapped in.
H
heisenburg
Guest
Ed…
With the most humble respect, I think you are generalizing too much. Your comments sound as though they border on some conspiracy within the scientific community to ‘kill’ god.
What is odd though is that you will find a vast majority of scientist are also some of the most religious. Are there some athiest in the scientific world? Yup. but the percentage is actually much smaller than the general public…
Why?
Because many scientists see the ‘evidence’ of god in their chosen field… I myself have a physics background. Seeing the incredible amount of order, yet complexity of just the physical laws is for me and many others with scientific backgrounds proof enough
In Christ
With the most humble respect, I think you are generalizing too much. Your comments sound as though they border on some conspiracy within the scientific community to ‘kill’ god.
What is odd though is that you will find a vast majority of scientist are also some of the most religious. Are there some athiest in the scientific world? Yup. but the percentage is actually much smaller than the general public…
Why?
Because many scientists see the ‘evidence’ of god in their chosen field… I myself have a physics background. Seeing the incredible amount of order, yet complexity of just the physical laws is for me and many others with scientific backgrounds proof enough
In Christ
E
edwest2
Guest
Thank you for your reply. You should understand that beliefs drive human choices. Atheism has recently undergone a new marketing push. Books like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins or Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris. These are followed by appearances on TV programs where the atheistic worldview is presented.
As the Western world becomes more secularised, i.e. atheistic, it also becomes more anarchist. Everybody going in their own direction with relationships of convenience and pleasure as the source of meaning and happiness. This, as compared to the sacrificial and loving stewardship of the Christian life. Look at the “entertainment” choices being offered today. Compared to the 1950s and 1960s where modesty, restraint, decency and civility were the norm, you’ve got endless sex jokes, idiotic comedians talking about their different ideas for killing people in ‘interesting’ ways, illegal drugs are cool, and those are my two moms and two dads, and other sister and that’s my cousin (I think) and my third dad might be bi. Plus stars dressing and acting like prostitutes.
Science, which used to openly recognize God, is being circumscribed by atheists who wish to use it for their own ends. “It’s time them Christians realized we came from nothin and nothin happens after we die. So eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we kick the bucket.”
Science is used, like a knife, by various people for various purposes. In this case, the manipulative aspects of science need to be exposed.
God bless,
Ed
As the Western world becomes more secularised, i.e. atheistic, it also becomes more anarchist. Everybody going in their own direction with relationships of convenience and pleasure as the source of meaning and happiness. This, as compared to the sacrificial and loving stewardship of the Christian life. Look at the “entertainment” choices being offered today. Compared to the 1950s and 1960s where modesty, restraint, decency and civility were the norm, you’ve got endless sex jokes, idiotic comedians talking about their different ideas for killing people in ‘interesting’ ways, illegal drugs are cool, and those are my two moms and two dads, and other sister and that’s my cousin (I think) and my third dad might be bi. Plus stars dressing and acting like prostitutes.
Science, which used to openly recognize God, is being circumscribed by atheists who wish to use it for their own ends. “It’s time them Christians realized we came from nothin and nothin happens after we die. So eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we kick the bucket.”
Science is used, like a knife, by various people for various purposes. In this case, the manipulative aspects of science need to be exposed.
God bless,
Ed
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drpmjhess
Guest
Hollywood driven by science? Sex jokes a result of evolutionary biology? I don’t think so.
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drpmjhess
Guest
Ed, plumbing is atheistic too (you only have to know that s*** flows downhill), but I don’t suppose that out of intellectual consistency you’ll be ripping out all your godless pipes soon.
Petrus
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edwest2
Guest
Yes, let’s compare evolution to plumbing for the 10 to the 20th power again.
The debate about this issue is simple. The electrician’s manual, your cookbook, a math book or a book about coin collecting, will tell you nothing about your origin. Nothing. So let’s stop with the incongruant comparisons, please.
It is also not about ignorance. If a 15 year old can understand evolution then I’m sure the average person gets the idea. But science, like every tool man uses, can be used for good or evil. That is the focus of my concern and the reason for the lack of acceptance of evolution by many. It may surprise you to know that many people will not accept being labeled just another animal or just like salt crystals, natural. Especially when they have the knowledge that they were created by God.
And please don’t repeat that the sacred science of evolution makes no statement about God. The theory, as written, says that human beings are natural, like salt crystals, and that everything came to be on its own. What’s wrong with that? It denies to divine providence any truly (any truly) causal role in the development of life. That is the issue.
God bless,
Ed
The debate about this issue is simple. The electrician’s manual, your cookbook, a math book or a book about coin collecting, will tell you nothing about your origin. Nothing. So let’s stop with the incongruant comparisons, please.
It is also not about ignorance. If a 15 year old can understand evolution then I’m sure the average person gets the idea. But science, like every tool man uses, can be used for good or evil. That is the focus of my concern and the reason for the lack of acceptance of evolution by many. It may surprise you to know that many people will not accept being labeled just another animal or just like salt crystals, natural. Especially when they have the knowledge that they were created by God.
And please don’t repeat that the sacred science of evolution makes no statement about God. The theory, as written, says that human beings are natural, like salt crystals, and that everything came to be on its own. What’s wrong with that? It denies to divine providence any truly (any truly) causal role in the development of life. That is the issue.
God bless,
Ed
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drpmjhess
Guest
Why should evolution make a statement about God, any more than the science of geology?
O
Orogeny
Guest
Plumbing also very conspicuously leaves out any mention of God. Hmm. Sounds athiestic to me.
I’m not sure that a 15 year old can understand much about evolution other than the basics, but at any rate, you might want to get to be friends with a 15 year old so that you can learn a little about the science.
So you admit that evolution can be used for good?
You are not a natural being? Your soul is supernatural, but you claim that your body is also?
Once again, you are telling an untruth, Ed. Please (I know, I know, I am wasting my time here) provide a biology textbook that says that human beings are like salt crystals
No it doesn’t, Ed.
Peace
Tim
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edwest2
Guest
I’m not saying it should. I’m just pointing out that it doesn’t. Now you’ve switched from plumbing to geology?
God bless,
Ed
E
edwest2
Guest
Hi Tim,
I’ve read the biology text of a 15 year old I know. It’s all about natural processes. Mutation, genetic drift, environmental pressures, some guesswork. Nope. It’s all natural. No God, no supernatural.
I don’t see how anyone can support the thought that God was somehow involved based on reading a biology textbook.
God bless,
Ed
I’ve read the biology text of a 15 year old I know. It’s all about natural processes. Mutation, genetic drift, environmental pressures, some guesswork. Nope. It’s all natural. No God, no supernatural.
I don’t see how anyone can support the thought that God was somehow involved based on reading a biology textbook.
God bless,
Ed
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drpmjhess
Guest
Not a substantial switch. We could try electronics if you like – that godless science which faithlessly refuses to make a direct appeal to the divine origin of electrons. How can we even think of discussing solid state circuitry without acknowledging that God is the source of all energy in the universe? That should be emblazoned on the cover of all electronics textbooks.
Petrus
H
heisenburg
Guest
If evolution is not true… then why is there sickle cell anemia.
If you know anything about the disease, you know it is a genetic mutation that allows a human to be immune to Malaria. Unfortunately it has some bad effects (even had a friend die of it).
Point is, this is a case where a persons physiology has changed in response to its surroundings. It is genetic information that i do not have, that someone else will.
As long as anyone acknowledges that GOD is the ultimate force behind what change is allowed, there is no problem.
You seem so quick to dismiss science. What we observe in science was created by God. If you have a problem with what is being observed, then ultimately, you have a problem with the way God does stuff
In Christ
If you know anything about the disease, you know it is a genetic mutation that allows a human to be immune to Malaria. Unfortunately it has some bad effects (even had a friend die of it).
Point is, this is a case where a persons physiology has changed in response to its surroundings. It is genetic information that i do not have, that someone else will.
As long as anyone acknowledges that GOD is the ultimate force behind what change is allowed, there is no problem.
You seem so quick to dismiss science. What we observe in science was created by God. If you have a problem with what is being observed, then ultimately, you have a problem with the way God does stuff
In Christ
B
buffalo
Guest
No - we should teach all children philosophy and metaphysics alongside science.
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