How evolution undermines Salvation

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No - we should teach all children philosophy and metaphysics alongside science.
Buffalo – I absolutely agree with you. That’s why my boys are in a Catholic school: the science and religion teachers work hand-in-hand to dispel any false notion that science necessarily leads to atheism. The second graders learn metaphysics. I suppose that can’t be done in public schools, so the default assumption of methodological naturalism is not carefully distinguished from metaphysical naturalism.

Petrus
 
The “stop” is totally unexplainable. To stop either means extinction or perfection, however perfection isnt in the evolution handbook. It brings to mind the protestant term “semper reformanda”, always reforming, I tell them just keep reforming and one day you might get it right, they on the otherhand see their current status as perfected without realizing the conflict with the concept of semper reformanda.

As for the claim some things havnt evoloved for hundreds of millions of years, such information goes against evolution because it shows there is no evolution taking place.

But it isnt science to arbitrarily put humans into such a category, your data only gives evidence that certain things havnt evolved over the hundred million years and humans are not part of it, infact evolution claims human evolution was active over that timespan giving no scientific grounds to say it stopped recently.
There is no reason, scientifically speaking, to necessarily assume that humans are still changing form. The shark, the crocodile, the coelacanth, all of these organisms derived from an earlier predecessor. That is, evolution acted to bring us those organisms too, but eventually “stopped” when their current form was achieved.

Put another way, it’s a common misconception to believe that “evolution always brings about change”. In fact, it does not, as again, the shark, croc, and coelacanth prove. Evolution, in their cases, actually PREVENTED them from changing, because in the niches they occupy, they are the best they can be. So yes, there is “perfection” in evolution, IN SPECIFIC NICHES.

So, returning to the case of Man, there’s no reason to believe, that Man won’t be an evolutionary “dead end”, never changing since the first breath of Creation that gave the “form” it’s soul. That’s because there’s just as much evidence that shows we dominate our niche on the Earth, as there is that shows there are occasional anomalies in the human form. Thus, there’s no way to say for certain, one way or the other, if Man will be the same, physically speaking, 5 million years from now. Since there’s no way to say for certain, there’s no reason to think that evolution is incompatible with Christianity today, as the OP implied.

Also, as a quick aside, there’s no reason to think that Jesus won’t return before evolution would even have a chance to change us into something significantly different than the form Jesus took.

Thus the original post’s question is answered. As far as the rest of the thread goes, without having read it, it probably got so long because some are taking “sides” against the other. The true Catholic position is, that one can be a strict literalist in terms of the Creation account, or, one can be a theistic evolutionist. The only thing we as Catholics are prevented from believing is, that the soul “evolved” over time.

Knowing this, I tend to avoid any “crevo” debates, as this thread has probably “devolved” into, no pun intended. For some reason, the freedom given by the Church to believe one OR the other (literal Creation OR evolution) is lost in threads like this; I guess some just like to argue.

The OP raised a point I hadn’t considered before; but I think the answer is in the fact of the shark, crocodile and coelacanth. Again, there’s no reason to believe humans aren’t dominant (maybe even a bit too dominant!) in their own niche, and thus, there exists no evolutionary pressure that would significantly change the human physical form.
 
I have no problem with the way God does stuff. How can you take a biology textbook and use it in any way to point to God? You can’t. The theory does not allow for it. That is the problem. Sending your kids to Catholic school would help to solve that problem, but public school is what is at issue.

God bless,
Ed
 
If one is honest with them selves… you can take any science text book, no matter how secular, and see God…

For example…

The properties of Water
The importance and balance of Cosmological constance
The balance created by the Laws of Thermodynamics
simplicity yet complexity DNA
Gravity

God is in everything… As long as you aren’t already closed minded to the idea, you will see him every where you look

In Christ
 
An atheist can take a biology textbook and say, “Here’s the main reason I don’t believe in God. The science tells me you don’t need any god.” Ask Richard Dawkins, author of the God Delusion.

God bless,
Ed
 
As stated, unless you are closed minded to it already… you can see god everywhere in science…

Dawkins is an example of someone closed minded to the idea, so, he naturally would not see the balance in nature that God creates

Even a 10 year old can look at a science book and see that something had to make everything so perfectly balanced… If even one of the constants in the universe were even slightly different, we would not be here to discuss it

This is why, as mentioned, many scientist are VERY religious

In Christ
 
Many scientists are very religious? Yeah. So?

The average high school kid gets told that all life on earth got here through a natural process called evolution. What part of that don’t you get?

God bless,
Ed
 
Hi Tim,

I’ve read the biology text of a 15 year old I know. It’s all about natural processes. Mutation, genetic drift, environmental pressures, some guesswork. Nope. It’s all natural. No God, no supernatural.
Well, for that matter, have you read ANY science book that includes the supernatural? Do you really expect to find that in a science textbook?
I don’t see how anyone can support the thought that God was somehow involved based on reading a biology textbook.
Once again, how about the same thing for a physics or chemistry book? Besides, teaching people about God really is a task for the Church, isn’t it?

Peace

Tim
 
Again, there’s no reason to believe humans aren’t dominant (maybe even a bit too dominant!) in their own niche, and thus, there exists no evolutionary pressure that would significantly change the human physical form.
The availability of corrective lenses is removing the selective advantage of perfect eyesight, allowing many people to survive and reproduce who wouldn’t have under neolithic conditions. That’s evolution in action.
*
Staphyloccus aurea* has evolved resistance to an increasing number of antibiotics. That’s evolution in action.
 
Many scientists are very religious? Yeah. So?

The average high school kid gets told that all life on earth got here through a natural process called evolution. What part of that don’t you get?
Do you think everyone lives in a vacuum, Ed? Is there no where else children can be taught about God?

Peace

Tim
 
Ed…

Respectfully, I think it is you that is missing what I am saying. NO public school teaches that there is no God… I have never seen any reference to it, and any time a teach does try and do something it is always taken to courts as a violation separation of church and state. In this case, it would be a state run facility telling someone what to believe…

If you honestly believe that, then by all means give me sources…

so far, your only source is Dawkins…

What you WILL find is a no comment either way…
That is how our LAWS work.

that being said… as mentioned already… If you are open minded, you cannot look in a science book and not see God. If you are closed minded, thats a different story.

again…

IF you cannot back up your claim with sources, then stop making this claim.

In Christ
 
The availability of corrective lenses is removing the selective advantage of perfect eyesight, allowing many people to survive and reproduce who wouldn’t have under neolithic conditions. That’s evolution in action.
I specifically said “significant changes”; whether or not we will see worse as a race in 5 million years is not a significant change to the human form.
Staphyloccus aurea has evolved resistance to an increasing number of antibiotics. That’s evolution in action.
I never said that evolution doesn’t bring about change of course it does that TOO. All I’ve said is that it doesn’t ALWAYS bring about change.
 
I suggest you go the ACLU web site. They have a long-running history of removing God from schools, public places, you name it.

When I was growing up, there was a Nativity scene in front of the local City Hall. No one was forced to look at it, bow in front of it or put money in it. Then the ACLU woke up one day and said, Hey! You can’t do that!

Got a painting of Jesus in your local public school that’s been there for the past 50 or 60 years? Gotta go!

I suggest you read some history to find out how much your religious freedom has been eroded in the United States.

God bless,
Ed
 
I suggest you go the ACLU web site. They have a long-running history of removing God from schools,
They are often forcing schools to allow children to express their religion. The ACLU’s policy is that while schools (being government agencies) cannot promote religion, students who enter schools have the right to wear religious articles, pray in a way that does not interfer with the rights of others, and to carry religious literature. A good example was in Pike Co. Alabama, which was sued by the ACLU for banning the Star of David as “Gang Symbol.”

Another was the amicus curae submitted by the ACLU in support of the Religious Freedoms Restoration Act, which would have permitted school children to wear a crucifix, or carry a Bible.

But you’re quite right. They continue to strongly support the First Amendment, which prohibits any establishment of religion.
When I was growing up, there was a Nativity scene in front of the local City Hall. No one was forced to look at it, bow in front of it or put money in it. Then the ACLU woke up one day and said, Hey! You can’t do that!
They actually enforced the Constitution? Outrageous. :rolleyes:
Would you be happy if someone put a Satanist display on public property? That’s the price of putting a Christian one up.
Got a painting of Jesus in your local public school that’s been there for the past 50 or 60 years? Gotta go!
The fact that laws were broken in the past is not license to continue that. Besides, it’s possible to have a picture of Jesus there legally. Just make it part of a display on culture and faith, and allow all faiths to do it. Supreme Court has allowed that.
I suggest you read some history to find out how much your religious freedom has been eroded in the United States.
How does anyone’s religious freedom depend on the government endorsing religion? As James Madison wrote, such a thing has always damaged religious freedom.

In the last century, there were places where Catholic school children were punished for refusing to say Protestant prayers in public school. That’s where we’d be today, without the ACLU.
 
ED.

As was mentioned by the ACLU, while I do not support everything they stand for, I can assure you that if a teacher in a biology class specificly told his students that there is no god and you shouldn’t worship him, the ACLU would be all over them… The door swings both ways…

but, dont take my word for it… take theres.
If you do not believe me, here, this is from their site…

################################################
ACLU DOCUMENTS FROM THEIR WEBSITE
################################################
Is the ACLU against religion?
The ACLU believes in the right of each and every American to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure religious liberty is protected by keeping the government out of the realm of all religions. For more information, please see the Religious Liberty section.
ACLU’s court cases DEFENDING Christians
The ACLU vigorously defends the right of Americans to practice religion. But because the ACLU is often better known for its work preventing the government from promoting and funding selected religious activities, it is often wrongly assumed that the ACLU does not zealously defend the rights of religious believers, including Christians, to practice their religion. The cases below - including several where the ACLU even defended the rights of religious believers to condemn homosexuality or abortion - reveal just how mistaken such assumptions are.
################################################

Normally I do not support the type of post I did, but with respect, many of your recent posts were filled with misconceptions… I do not take you to task, but simply ask you read what is being said, and look at the links I provided…

That being said, I have given you sources showing you that the ACLU will and HAS defended Christians…

Now, if you can show me sources where atheism was taught in a public class room and no one complained and/or it was accepted… please provide them.

In Christ
 
Firt of all, the ACLU was founded by a Communist, and his goal was Communism in the United States.
The founder was Roger Nash Baldwin, and in 1940, he convinced the ACLU to amend their charter to exclude any person advocating a totalitarian philosophy. This led to the expulsion of all persons associated with communist or fascist ideologies, most notably the communist Elizabeth Flynn. Perhaps you’re thinking of her. She didn’t found it, in any case.

He also denounced the Soviet State for oppressive actions and purges. This seems inconsistent behavior for a communist.
The ACLU has sometimes helped religious causes but it is increasingly anti-religion:
If so, it’s hard to see why the ACLU continues to battle for the rights of Americans to express their religion. In truth, the ACLU is anti-government-sponsored religion.

But then so is the Constitution.
 
Does the ACLU have Communist roots? Was co-founder Roger Baldwin a Communist?
No, Roger Baldwin was not a communist. Like many of his contemporaries, he observed and wrote about the social and political issues in the early years of the Soviet Union, but later he wrote, “The Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939, a traumatic shock to me, ended any ambivalence I had about the Soviet Union, and all cooperation with Communists in united fronts.”
Throughout the organization’s history and particularly during the McCarthy era, the ACLU, its members, staff and founders have been accused of being communists. The ACLU has no political affiliations and makes no test of individuals’ ideological leanings a condition of membership or employment. Members and staff of the national ACLU and its affiliates may be Republicans, Democrats, Communists, Federalists, Libertarians, or members of any other political party or no party at all. What the ACLU asks of its staff and officials is that they consistently defend civil liberties and the Constitution.
 
Well, it seems now you are diving into conspericy theories…

You have effectivly said “The ACLU site is lying to cover their roots”

Though I respect your zeal, it is no longer possible to have a conversation due to your now insistance on some type of “conspericy” effectivly. I show you cases where the ACLU has helped Christians. You say it is a fluke.

I give you a link to their ‘directive’ regarding religion. Either you ignored it, or you disregardd it.

You said they are Communist. I provide a link with their position. If you notice it said you could be Rebulican, Democrate, Communist, libertarian, etc… as long as you uphold the constitution.

You just say… “I Don’t Buy it”

You told me to go look at their site…
I did, I saw they were consistant in how they defend and will defend Christians and Non Christians alike.

Now you say their site isn’t reliable…

So be it…

I’m not in the mood to discuss conspericies and rumors.
Besides, doesn’t Christ ask us to 1) seek truth, as well as NOT baring false witness?

May you be blessed in your Journey

In Christ
 
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