How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

[SteveVH]

My dear friend in Christ,

If I sound sarcastic forgive me; but there are MANY, MANY, MANY THOUSANDS of “christian” denominations so one would think you’d be able to find one that meets your criteria?

BUT it seems to me [IMO] your asking the wrong question

Do you beleive that on any precise single issue that their can be ONLY One TRUTHFUL answer?

IF you do [it seems like SOLID LOGIC], then we have much to discuss. If Not, well

It’s a FACT God WILL judge you based on what HE GOD Knows is right; not what one likes, dislikes, or any persoanl preferences. One God =One standard of Judgement.

Good luck and may God Bless you,

Pat

I started this thread because of the many conversations I have had on this forum with people of varying beliefs. We have Catholics, obviously, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutherans, Methodist, Presbetyrians, Baptists, Quakers, Non-Denominational, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc., all of whom claim the title of Christian. If one were looking in the from the outside and studied the beliefs of each, they would have, in my opinion, a very difficult time summarizing the beliefs of those who say they are “Christian”.

I happen to believe that Christ started a Church for a reason. He desired unity among us, in belief and in practice. The Apostles were quick to admonish those who varied even slightly from what they were teaching. Today it does not seem to matter what one chooses to believe. They can reject the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the creeds, the Eucharist, baptism by water, and just about anything else one wishes to mention, and then feel offended if one questions their claim to the title of Christian.

So again, where do you, in your opinion, draw the line? I know where I draw the line, but I am interested in other’s opinion on this issue.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

 

[PJM]

=SteveVH;7874860]I started this thread because of the many conversations I have had on this forum with people of varying beliefs. We have Catholics, obviously, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutherans, Methodist, Presbetyrians, Baptists, Quakers, Non-Denominational, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc., all of whom claim the title of Christian. If one were looking in the from the outside and studied the beliefs of each, they would have, in my opinion, a very difficult time summarizing the beliefs of those who say they are “Christian”.

I happen to believe that Christ started a Church for a reason. He desired unity among us, in belief and in practice. The Apostles were quick to admonish those who varied even slightly from what they were teaching. Today it does not seem to matter what one chooses to believe. They can reject the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the creeds, the Eucharist, baptism by water, and just about anything else one wishes to mention, and then feel offended if one questions their claim to the title of Christian.

So again, where do you, in your opinion, draw the line? I know where I draw the line, but I am interested in other’s opinion on this issue.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

THANKS! Now I get it

Their can be ONLY one answer for ANYONE who accepts God and the Bible [any version thereof]…

From the first page to the last page of the bible God taught this One Simple TRUTH…

One God, One Faith [set of beliefs] and effective w/ Chrisr embodied in Sum and in Totsal within His Own Catholic Church.

ANY deviation is possibe and ALL deviation endangers FURTHER ones possibility of salvation. AMEN!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[CMatt25]

THANKS! Now I get it

Their can be ONLY one answer for ANYONE who accepts God and the Bible [any version thereof]…

From the first page to the last page of the bible God taught this One Simple TRUTH…

One God, One Faith [set of beliefs] and effective w/ Chrisr embodied in Sum and in Totsal within His Own Catholic Church.

ANY deviation is possibe and ALL deviation endangers FURTHER ones possibility of salvation. AMEN!

God Bless,
Pat

The question dealt with who can claim to be a Christian. Surely by your “ONLY one answer” you did not mean to imply one needs to be in this “One Simple Truth”, "One Faith " embodied “within His Own Catholic Church”. Because your church’s catechism does not say that.

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.

Blessings along your faith journey and peace.

 

[elvisman]

I think Protestants are Christians as well.I’ve been fortunate in my life to know many devoted christians from other denominations,whose faith is just as valid,as say someone from a catholic church.They are devoted to God and follow the ten commandments.I have seen a stronger sense of fellowship in other denominations.Most protestants also seem to be more familiar with the bible,because tradition is less important than in the catholic church

Which, in itself is unbiblical.**

St. Paul puts Tradition on par with the written word:
2 Thess. 2:15
"Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement OR by a letter of ours."

---

The Church is not to be “wandered from” because when you DO - you wander away from the fulnness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) which is the Church.

Lastly, I would agree that there are many Protestants who know the Bible better than many Catholics. However, I would make one correction by saying that whereas, they know the verses - they have twisted the meaning.
That’s why there is such splintering within Protestantism

 

[Rocket_Man]

I have known many Protestants that live wholly for Christ and allow Christ to work through them. Yet, they won’t come to the table and eat. I know many Catholics that come to the table and eat but don’t want anything to do with what He says. I get confused when trying to understand which has wandered from the Church further?

I also get confused understanding how one can reject Marian dogma and be denied eternal bliss but yet those that worship the “God of Abraham” can be saved despite rejecting Christ. I’m trying to work through these with prayer but I continally hit a brick wall. So I guess I’m really confused even further when trying to gather how far one can wonder off from the original church.

P.S. Love ya Elvisman…

 

[elvisman]

I have known many Protestants that live wholly for Christ and allow Christ to work through them. Yet, they won’t come to the table and eat. I know many Catholics that come to the table and eat but don’t want anything to do with what He says. I get confused when trying to understand which has wandered from the Church further?

I also get confused understanding how one can reject Marian dogma and be denied eternal bliss but yet those that worship the “God of Abraham” can be saved despite rejecting Christ. I’m trying to work through these with prayer but I continally hit a brick wall. So I guess I’m really confused even further when trying to gather how far one can wonder off from the original church.

P.S. Love ya Elvisman…

Hello, Rocket, my brotha -
**The Church holds to the teaching of invincible ignorance for those who do not belong in the Church through no fault of their own. A Muslim who may have have never been exposed to the fullness of truth may be invincibly ignorant, according to this teaching. The same can go for any Protestant or non-church-goer. **The Catechism says this regarding invincible ignorance:

**847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: **
****Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

---

This teaching is based on, among other Scriptures, John 9:39-41.
After curing the blind man the Pharisses were trying to discredit Jesus and he said to them:
John 9:39-41
**Then Jesus said, *“I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind.” ***
**Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and said to him, *“Surely we are not also blind, are we?” ***
**Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains. ****

God Bless.
**

 

[SteveVH]

I have known many Protestants that live wholly for Christ and allow Christ to work through them. Yet, they won’t come to the table and eat. I know many Catholics that come to the table and eat but don’t want anything to do with what He says. I get confused when trying to understand which has wandered from the Church further?

I also get confused understanding how one can reject Marian dogma and be denied eternal bliss but yet those that worship the “God of Abraham” can be saved despite rejecting Christ. I’m trying to work through these with prayer but I continally hit a brick wall. So I guess I’m really confused even further when trying to gather how far one can wonder off from the original church.

P.S. Love ya Elvisman…

You are very correct concerning the personal faith journey of Catholics, as well as every denomination out there. I don’t think that is something any of us can judge. I am speaking of adhereing to beliefs professed by various religious organizations and rejecting beliefs handed down to us by the Apostles.

As Catholics, we believe that all those who are baptized with water, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, have entered into the family of God. The Holy Spirit has entered in and made their souls habitable by God. We accept these as brothers and sisters in the Lord, even though they are not in full communion with His original Church. But this is a broad brush. For instance, Mormons baptize with water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but their understanding of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is so far removed from the understanding of the Church that their baptism is not considered valid. Yet they claim the title “Christian”. So it is not just the words that matter, but the meaning we give to those words.

So, the fact that one may profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior may not be enough. That is my point. And where do we draw the line?

 

[SteveVH]

We make it too complicated, Paul says it simply. Romans 10:9: if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
We are seperated from God because of our sin. No one can keep the 10 commandments, I don’t think we can keep even 1. Jesus set the bar when he said: if you look upon a women with lust in your heart, you have commited adultery. And who has not stolen a cookie?

Being a christian does not require becoming a catholic. Being a christian is to be a follower of Jesus. I believe the best way to follow him is to be in his word, the bible.

Sorry, I missed your post. I don’t think anyone has said that being a Christian requires becoming a Catholic. Our Church does not teach that it is a requirement. But when one begins to deviate from the teachings of the original Church (the Catholic Church), there is no end to the beliefs that begin to unfold. All non-Catholic Christians reject some part of the teachings of the Church. We can start with the Eastern Orthodox who’s beliefs are, for the most part, entirely in line with the Catholic Church, but they reject the authority of the Pope (and a few other relatively minor issues (Filioque). Move on to the Anglicans who, again, are very close. On the other end of the spectrum you have Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons who’s theology is not even close. And then you have everything in between.

The Jehovah’s witnesses will tell you that they believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but believe that Jesus was only a man and that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal energy force from God. The Mormons believe that they are each seperate gods. Do you see where I’m going here? There are such varying degrees of belief that I think it is an important question. When one departs from the teachings of the original Church, how far is too far?

 

[Rocket_Man]

**Hello, **Rocket, my brotha -
The Church holds to the teaching of invincible ignorance for those who do not belong in the Church through no fault of their own. A Muslim who may have have never been exposed to the fullness of truth may be invincibly ignorant, according to this teaching. The same can go for any Protestant or non-church-goer. The Catechism says this regarding invincible ignorance:

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
****Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

---

This teaching is based on, among other Scriptures, John 9:39-41.
After curing the blind man the Pharisses were trying to discredit Jesus and he said to them:
John 9:39-41
**Then Jesus said, *“I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind.” ***
**Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and said to him, *“Surely we are not also blind, are we?” ***
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains. **

God Bless.
**

“Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.”

Which has fallen away further…

The one who “calls into doubt” any of the Marian Dogma or the one who “calls into doubt” that Jesus is the Christ yet seeks God with a sincere heart?

 

[elvisman]

“Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.”

Which has fallen away further…

The one who “calls into doubt” any of the Marian Dogma or the one who “calls into doubt” that Jesus is the Christ yet seeks God with a sincere heart?

Well - I don’t think you can have one without the other.

The Marian Dogmas attest to the fact that Jesus is the Christ. They don’t mean a hill of beans without the fact that she gave birth to the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. Mary was Immaculately conceived because she is the mother of God and her perpetual virginity attests to the types and prophecies about her - again - because she is the mother of God. None of this is by her own merit but by th grace of God.**

So, to deny the Marian Dogmas is to deny Christ.

 

[josephback]

My whole extended family is protestant, so I do fear that there may be some minor fireworks when they find out that I am planning on ‘going’ Catholic. I worry that they will think I am doing it for my girlfriend, but I have spent the past three years trying to show her the light of protestantism, only to find that I have been misled about Catholic theology and the history of the Church. The work of Michael Cumbie and Tim Staples have been instrumental in my change of heart.

I had a Catholic girlfriend once, at a time that I was very uneasy about the Church. She made a very simple, effective argument that I did not at first appreciate. She said “the Catholic Church stays together.” Now years later I realize it’s true: the Catholic Church stays together! In theology and otherwise, they are the original Church.

As to your family, they might not understand but don’t let that dissuade you. Mine doesn’t understand. Just pray the saints for their conversions and be patient. Trust in Jesus for strength.

 

[PJM]

=CMatt25;7875110]The question dealt with who can claim to be a Christian. Surely by your “ONLY one answer” you did not mean to imply one needs to be in this “One Simple Truth”, "One Faith " embodied “within His Own Catholic Church”. Because your church’s catechism does not say that.

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.

Blessings along your faith journey and peace.

I THINK I’m saying “should be” and your thinking “must be”…

MUST BE NO!

SHOULD BE YES! Here’s why.

CC is the Only Faith Founded by a God who always taught One Faith and One God Only

CC is the only place to MEET Christ in Person vai His Holy Communion

CC HOLD ALL OF THE Keys to heaven [Mt. 16:19] [the shephard of the Narrow gate is Peter and Successors.

CC only place one can go and Factually KNOW thier sin HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN

CC gave to the World the Bible and therefore the ONLY place one can get it COMPLETE TRUTHS.

**2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

**ACTS 8: 29-32 **“And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “**How can I, unless some one guides me?” **And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this: "As a sheep led to the slaughter or a lamb before its shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth.”

**Eph.3: 9 to 12 ** “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: THEE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him. “

CC only place where Indulgences APPLY to the necessary payback for our sins

CC is the ONLY Place to find “The Fullness of God’s Truth” on all matters of Faith-Belief and Morals.

CC is the Holy PLACE where Chrsit promised the HS would be “FOREVER” [Jn.14:16-17]

CC is the ONLY place that Jesus Gives Himself to The Father as WARRANTY of Her Truths [John17:15-19]

ONLY the CC DIRECTLY from the mouth of God has the MAndate to Teach His Truth to the World

Only the CC has the Power of God Himself to fulifll His mandated: ;Mt. 28:19-23; John20:21-22…

And Only the CC is used by God to funnel all salvation through Her:

**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

**819 **“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

God Bless you my friend,

Pat

 

[Rocket_Man]

You are very correct concerning the personal faith journey of Catholics, as well as every denomination out there. I don’t think that is something any of us can judge. I am speaking of adhereing to beliefs professed by various religious organizations and rejecting beliefs handed down to us by the Apostles.

As Catholics, we believe that all those who are baptized with water, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, have entered into the family of God. The Holy Spirit has entered in and made their souls habitable by God. We accept these as brothers and sisters in the Lord, even though they are not in full communion with His original Church. But this is a broad brush. For instance, Mormons baptize with water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but their understanding of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is so far removed from the understanding of the Church that their baptism is not considered valid. Yet they claim the title “Christian”. So it is not just the words that matter, but the meaning we give to those words.

So, the fact that one may profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior may not be enough. That is my point. And where do we draw the line?

In the case of the Mormon, while they do not define the Trinity as Catholics, then also like the Mohammadian, they can adore the only One True God also but not in fullness, and they too can be saved through grace responding to the light that is given?

 

[Rocket_Man]

**Hello, **Rocket, my brotha -
The Church holds to the teaching of invincible ignorance for those who do not belong in the Church through no fault of their own. A Muslim who may have have never been exposed to the fullness of truth may be invincibly ignorant, according to this teaching. The same can go for any Protestant or non-church-goer. The Catechism says this regarding invincible ignorance:

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
****Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

---

This teaching is based on, among other Scriptures, John 9:39-41.
After curing the blind man the Pharisses were trying to discredit Jesus and he said to them:
John 9:39-41
**Then Jesus said, *“I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind.” ***
**Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and said to him, *“Surely we are not also blind, are we?” ***
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains. **

God Bless.**

When I study this problem, I think of the sun and the moon. The sun is like the new day and the brightness of the Godhead in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The moon not having any light can only reflect what is manifested from the sun. So in the old days, before Christ, in some sense Israel worshiped the One God as they understood Him to be through the light of the moon. I’m only speaking comparatively here, not that they actually worshipped the moon. In darkness they walked attesting to the attributes of the One God as best as they could see Him.

But then a new dawn appeared and the new day was born. That being the fullness of God revealed to mankind through Christ Jesus. Today we Christians walk in the brightness of the new day, growing and lifting ourselves to His graces in fullness. In a way comparitively just like a blooming flower. So while we are walking in the day the moon no longer shines for us. Alhough for the unbeliever who walks not by day but by night only the partial light is revealed.

But now having the new day revealed to all mankind, my question is whether the moon’s pull is able to draw the unbeliever to ethernal salvation. For certainly the ultimate purpose of the moonlight was always to get the worshipper to reach the coming dawn where life can only flourish. What if the unbeliever stumbled and did not come to the brightness of the morning light, yet was a real devout Muslim or Jew. Then can he really be saved without the full light of Christ? Can the light of the moon really save or can it only draw one to the living light of the new day?

 

[SteveVH]

In the case of the Mormon, while they do not define the Trinity as Catholics, then also like the Mohammadian, they can adore the only One True God also but not in fullness, and they too can be saved through grace responding to the light that is given?

Well, not to dwell on the Mormons, but they also believe God was once a man who progressed to his divine state. There is no “One, True, God”, but rather many gods. “Heavenly Father” happens to be our God, but there are many other gods who rule over other worlds. Wanna be baptized in his name? Jesus is Michael the Archangel, according to their beliefs. So how far do we go?

 

[SteveVH]

When I study this problem, I think of the sun and the moon. The sun is like the new day and the brightness of the Godhead in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The moon not having any light can only reflect what is manifested from the sun. So in the old days, before Christ, in some sense Israel worshiped the One God as they understood Him to be through the light of the moon. I’m only speaking comparatively here, not that they actually worshipped the moon. In darkness they walked attesting to the attributes of the One God as best as they could see Him.

But then a new dawn appeared and the new day was born. That being the fullness of God revealed to mankind through Christ Jesus. Today we Christians walk in the brightness of the new day, growing and lifting ourselves to His graces in fullness. In a way comparitively just like a blooming flower. So while we are walking in the day the moon no longer shines for us. Alhough for the unbeliever who walks not by day but by night only the partial light is revealed.

But now having the new day revealed to all mankind, my question is whether the moon’s pull is able to draw the unbeliever to ethernal salvation. For certainly the ultimate purpose of the moonlight was always to get the worshipper to reach the coming dawn where life can only flourish. What if the unbeliever stumbled and did not come to the brightness of the morning light, yet was a real devout Muslim or Jew. Then can he really be saved without the full light of Christ? Can the light of the moon really save or can it only draw one to the living light of the new day?

God is merciful and died for the sins of ALL mankind. He draws everyone to Himself. He alone knows the hearts human beings and knows what they would have done with the knowledge of Him if they had received it.

But this thread is not about who can be saved, it is about whether or not it matters what one believes in light of the fact that Christ established a Church, entrusted to the Apostles, for the purpose of spreading the kingdom of God to all the world. When the beliefes taught by that Church are rejected, does it matter? As long as I claim Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, no matter what I really believe about that Lord and Savior, is that enough? If it is then I am baffled as to why we even need the Scriptures or Tradition, or, for that matter, the Church. Just claim Christ and you’re good to go. Just profess faith in One God (no matter what you believe about that one God) and you are saved. If this is true then why do we need any Church at all?

 

[SteveVH]

The early Church did not put up with deviations from the faith. There have been different beliefs promoted by different men since the beginning of Christianity, and the Church said “yes, it does matter what one believes.” If you differed from the teachings of the Church you would forever be known as an Arian, Manichean, Sabellian, Nestorian, Monophystist or Monothelitist, but you would not be know as a Christian.

And if we don’t think it really matters what one believes, right out of the shoot, at the beginning of the Reformation, Martin Luther preached that “I can commit adultery a thousand times in one day and still be assured of my salvation.” Now I absolutely love the Lutheran posters on this forum, but if one bought into this line of thinking he could literally loose his soul. There is a disconnect that happens outside of the Catholic Church when people invent their own religions, no matter how sincere their beliefs. The faith is not ours to create. It was given to us. Jesus didn’t say “Now go and build your own churches.” He said "I will build My church."

All can be saved, but it may also become much easier to loose your soul depending upon what you choose to believe. As a Catholic, I do not pick and choose what to believe. It is up to me to either reject the teachings of the Church or accept them. If I do not accept them then can I really call myself Catholic? No, I don’t believe so. We receive what has been handed down to us, not what we decide suits us best.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Well, not to dwell on the Mormons, but they also believe God was once a man who progressed to his divine state. There is no “One, True, God”, but rather many gods. “Heavenly Father” happens to be our God, but there are many other gods who rule over other worlds. Wanna be baptized in his name? Jesus is Michael the Archangel, according to their beliefs. So how far do we go?

They believe many things. Yet when it comes to defining the Godhead they error. I understand their baptism is invalid. In the larger scheme the baptism is unnecessary since they can be saved by whatever is true in their faith through grace? So they can stray even in the greatest entity, “Who is God”?

 

[SteveVH]

They believe many things. Yet when it comes to defining the Godhead they error. I understand their baptism is invalid. In the larger scheme the baptism is unnecessary since they can be saved by whatever is true in their faith through grace? So they can stray even in the greatest entity, “Who is God”?

The question is, however, can they still be called Christian? There are many others with beliefs that are without foundation in the original Church also. I don’t want this thread to be about any particular faith tradition. There just seems to be a tendency among many today to accept whatever anyone chooses to propose as okay. If you say you believe in Jesus, that is enough. I think it is a spiritual danger that can lull one into a false sense of security regarding their salvation. Tolerance is fine from a civil standpoint, but is it fine from a spiritual standpoint? In other words, does the truth matter? I think it does.

 

[CMatt25]

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Those words in CCC remain a huge stumbling block for me. Pronouncing someone can not be saved who at one time might have believed the Catholic Church was necessary but who later had a change of beliefs and did not remain. I know it has been explained to me as simply being similar to telling someone what will be the outcome if they jump off a cliff. But it still smacks of judging another’s salvation to me. In any case God bless you too Pat. And peace.