How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

[PJM]

=SteveVH;7878647]No, you are not hijacking the thread. Your topic is on point. Be careful of those within the Church who wish to spin Catholic doctrine to suit their purposes. Christ redeemed all of humanity, but redemption is not the same as salvation. Christ came to fully reveal the Father. All religions are an attempt to understand God and all contain some truth. But Christ is that truth and the mission of the Church on earth is to spread that truth to all the world. Some will accept that truth and others will reject it (and do so at their own peril).

This thread, however, is about those who would call themselves “Christian”. When they deviate from the truth that we have received from the Apostles, how far is too far? Some non-Catholics are very close to the Catholic Church in belief and dogma. Others are so far away that one can hardly make the connection. And then we have everything in between. Where should we draw the line? That is the question.

Thank you my friend for a beautiful and enlightened responce.

I’ll add a note however because it it “WE,” nott God Himself that “Draws the line.” That points to the place of demarkation.

READ Heb. 6:4-10. ANY progress towards one personal salvation requires that we; albiet, at times, slowly continue to make PROGRESS in our Faith Understanding and move closer to Christ Himself in our Personal Relationship.

From this perspective any move “away from” or in is a different direction is counter productive to the end goal of salvation. So IMO, one cannot sray at all from thier faith unless it relates directly and solely for the search of the 'Single Truth." God will judge out hearts motives as well as our actions.

Thanks for joing me in expressing a seemingly hidden TRUTH that “Redemption is NOT the SAME as salvation.” It is close to it, perhpas in a way even tied to it; BUT nevertheless Not the same. “Redemption” is for everyone… PERIOD. Salvation is ONLY for those who Know, Love, Serve, Obey and Thank God to the best of their God provided opportunities.

Again, THANKS! Very well done!

God Bless,
Pat.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I totally agree with you. You cannot be anti-Christ and be saved. The Church doesn’t teach that you can. Who is telling you this?

As I stated earlier, the Church teaches that some outside the Church (the Body of Christ) may be saved due to invincible ignorance. However, as the Catechism states, they must “seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.”

CCC 841: The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I’m trying to put my arms around CCC 841. It reads as a blanket covering all Muslims with salvation because of their adoration to the one merciful God? How can they not be anti-Christ? Yet you wrote “saved due to invincible ignorance” only if they responded to grace. I think I’m going to stand with you helping to understand what is being taught in 841.

So to say in the earlier example of the Sun and the Moon (#53). If a Muslim, in this case, is sincerely following the light that is given even though in darkness but dies before reaching the new dawn then they may be saved? God may apply the merits of the Cross to that person having knowledge that the new day would have dawned in that individual’s heart. Is this what CCC 841 says or is it more of a blanket statement?

 

[elvisman]

CCC 841: The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I’m trying to put my arms around CCC 841. It reads as a blanket covering all Muslims with salvation because of their adoration to the one merciful God? How can they not be anti-Christ? Yet you wrote “saved due to invincible ignorance” only if they responded to grace. I think I’m going to stand with you helping to understand what is being taught in 841.

So to say in the earlier example of the Sun and the Moon (#53). If a Muslim, in this case, is sincerely following the light that is given even though in darkness but dies before reaching the new dawn then they may be saved? God may apply the merits of the Cross to that person having knowledge that the new day would have dawned in that individual’s heart. Is this what CCC 841 says or is it more of a blanket statement?

Go MAY apply - that is the operative phrase. God’s grace is beyond our understanding so somebody who has no knowledge of the truth - through no fault of their own - MAY achive salvation. As I said before - this is a slim chance - not a blanket guarantee for everybody.

Read the following explanation of this paragraph in the Catechism (841).
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp

The paragraph you quoted is from the Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium. It is in no way a guarantee that Muslims will be saved – or anybody else for that matter.

 

[PJM]

=SteveVH;7875853]You are very correct concerning the personal faith journey of Catholics, as well as every denomination out there. I don’t think that is something any of us can judge. I am speaking of adhereing to beliefs professed by various religious organizations and rejecting beliefs handed down to us by the Apostles.

Sorry to disagree: we CANNOT judge salvation; but are to Judge works:

**Matt.7: 16 **“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits”.

As Catholics, we believe that all those who are baptized with water, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, have entered into the family of God. The Holy Spirit has entered in and made their souls habitable by God. We accept these as brothers and sisters in the Lord, even though they are not in full communion with His original Church. But this is a broad brush. For instance, Mormons baptize with water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but their understanding of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is so far removed from the understanding of the Church that their baptism is not considered valid. Yet they claim the title “Christian”. So it is not just the words that matter, but the meaning we give to those words.

So, the fact that one may profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior may not be enough. That is my point. And where do we draw the line?

WELL DONE!

I would add that salvation is a process, not normally restricted to the single essential act of Christian Baptism because we continue to sin. Many other issues come into the field of
Essential elements of the process of salvation, such as COMPLETE Obedience to the Commandments; forgiveness of Sins and God’s plan for this and the necessary role of good works. Each has a biblical foundation.

It is indisputable that God from Genesis to Revelations consistently PREACHED and taught only One God; One set of Faith beliefs, and after Christ [physically] located in His One Church. A new term; changing the vocabulary from Pagan temples and Jewish Synagogue’s; from ungodly practices and Jewish Traditions to Christianity through Jesus Christ.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Rocket_Man]

Go MAY apply - that is the operative phrase. God’s grace is beyond our understanding so somebody who has no knowledge of the truth - through no fault of their own - MAY achive salvation. As I said before - this is a slim chance - not a blanket guarantee for everybody.

Read the following explanation of this paragraph in the Catechism (841).
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp

The paragraph you quoted is from the Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium. It is in no way a guarantee that Muslims will be saved – or anybody else for that matter.

Thank you so much. After reading your comment I immediately knew you were truthful. I was so much relieved. I have come a long ways and when I read the 841, in my own understanding, I was deeply troubled. I’m very glad I worked through this instead of turning back. I’m glad I found you and you found me while God found us both. Love you. How can I not for you love Him too.

 

[elvisman]

Thank you so much. After reading your comment I immediately knew you were truthful. I was so much relieved. I have come a long ways and when I read the 841, in my own understanding, I was deeply troubled. I’m very glad I worked through this instead of turning back. I’m glad I found you and you found me while God found us both. Love you. How can I not for you love Him too.

Right on, my brother.

**Sometimes, we look at a Church statement out of context and we come to false conclusions. Unfortunately, this is done purposely by uncharitable non-Catholics. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t charitable non-Catholics. **

I’m saying that sometimes people are given these out-of-context statements and through ignorance believe the falsehood. Sometimes, as in this case, people simply read the out-of-context statement for themselves and shudder.
I’m glad that you are asking the questions and so that you won’t be left in a state of ignorance on the matter.

I have seen too many Catholics (ESPECIALLY in my own family) who left the fullness of truth because they were spoonfed falsehoods.

Keep the faith, my brother - and keep asking the questions.

 

[SteveVH]

Sorry to disagree: we CANNOT judge salvation; but are to Judge works:

**Matt.7: 16 **“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits”.

I am going to tell you a little story about myself and my family. My wife is a recovering alcoholic. We have been together since high school. There was a time, when she was active in her drinking, that I would take our children to Mass with me. I would show up a little late and leave right after communion. I did this purposefully because I could not bear to have another person come up to me and ask how things were going. My children and I were going through a lot of pain. At that time there was no good news to tell anyone. My best answer would have been “my life is a nightmare”. You can only say that so many times.

Now, I have no doubt that people were probably judging me as we should not always show up late or leave Mass until the priest processes out. They must have thought “look what he is teaching his children”.
So no, I don’t agree that we can judge anyone. We have no idea what is going on in their lives. There is an old saying “To those who can’t hear the music, the dancer seems daft”.

By the way, my wife is sober today and we will celebrate our 36th anniversary this July.

 

[SteveVH]

I would add that salvation is a process, not normally restricted to the single essential act of Christian Baptism because we continue to sin. Many other issues come into the field of
Essential elements of the process of salvation, such as COMPLETE Obedience to the Commandments; forgiveness of Sins and God’s plan for this and the necessary role of good works. Each has a biblical foundation.

I would say that conversion is a process. Conversion is a turning away from something and turning towards another. It is a daily process that continues until our death. But without baptism we have no life in our souls. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in us. We enter the Church through baptism and remain in the Church through the other sacraments, especially Reconciliation and the Eucharist. None of us, not one, can remain in complete obedience to the Commandments, thus the necessity of Reconciliation. Our salvation will happen, or not happen, immediately upon our death.

 

[PJM]

=SteveVH;7883804]I am going to tell you a little story about myself and my family. My wife is a recovering alcoholic. We have been together since high school. There was a time, when she was active in her drinking, that I would take our children to Mass with me. I would show up a little late and leave right after communion. I did this purposefully because I could not bear to have another person come up to me and ask how things were going. My children and I were going through a lot of pain. At that time there was no good news to tell anyone. My best answer would have been “my life is a nightmare”. You can only say that so many times.

Now, I have no doubt that people were probably judging me as we should not always show up late or leave Mass until the priest processes out. They must have thought “look what he is teaching his children”.
So no, I don’t agree that we can judge anyone. We have no idea what is going on in their lives. There is an old saying “To those who can’t hear the music, the dancer seems daft”.

By the way, my wife is sober today and we will celebrate our 36th anniversary this July.

Thanks for hanging in their.

FYI: I can and identify.

Both my parents [now passed] were acholics; as is our son. So I know your pain.

I was not trying to be judgmental; only accurate. We have to be careful in what we share as so many different folks read these postings. Because it is on a catholic Forum; I tend to be critical [perhaps excessively so], of any post that leaves open a possibility of another non-catholic view.

What I was TRYING to say is that God WILL judge each of us based on our personal choices. If we see a wrong we can ignore it; ot address it. Things do not tend to get better by themselves.

(I AM THRILLED at what you and your bride have accomplished with God’s help. WELL DONE Good and faithful servants.

In this "it’s only wrong IF I SAY its wrong world we live in; it’s possible I over reacted. Please forgive me.

May God continue to Bless you and your family,

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Stillchecking]

I’ve read on this thread that in order to go to heaven, that I have to go through the Catholic Church? Have I read and understood right that this entire theology (the Catholic Church is God’s one and only true church) is based on one passage of scripture: Matt 16 verses 18 and 19?.

**18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **

I heard a preacher preach that you can only interpret scripture with scripture, that in order to better prove a point you need more one passage. Is there any other passage of scripture that points to the Catholic Church as the only true church?

 

[anp1215]

That is not a belief that I have ever heard a Mormon say. They say that Michael and Adam are the same individual. The only other name than Jesus that I heard them use is Jehovah.

I have never heard of that being a part of Mormon theology either. I’ve never heard a Mormon say that or seen it on any of their official sites. If one said it, I would say they are going against their own church’s doctrine. I searched it and came up with a yahoo answers thread that has several Mormons saying that they do not believe this.
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090310131015AAP9a2e

 

[Stillchecking]

I’ve read this entire discussion and don’t understand a couple things. Is it true church teaching that in order to go to heaven I need to have been baptized in the Catholic Church before I die?

I’ve looked up all the bible references on baptism and I don’t see where it is required in order to go to heaven. Mark 16:16 does say He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. But the prerequsite there is belief, which suggests that a person must be at an age of understanding. Overwhelming all the verses on baptism first state that there must be belief (in Jesus) and because of that belief, then go and be baptized.

I can’t find one verse that suggests that baptizing a baby will help in any way get that baby/person into heaven.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks for hanging in their.

FYI: I can and identify.

Both my parents [now passed] were acholics; as is our son. So I know your pain.

I was not trying to be judgmental; only accurate. We have to be careful in what we share as so many different folks read these postings. Because it is on a catholic Forum; I tend to be critical [perhaps excessively so], of any post that leaves open a possibility of another non-catholic view.

What I was TRYING to say is that God WILL judge each of us based on our personal choices. If we see a wrong we can ignore it; ot address it. Things do not tend to get better by themselves.

(I AM THRILLED at what you and your bride have accomplished with God’s help. WELL DONE Good and faithful servants.

In this "it’s only wrong IF I SAY its wrong world we live in; it’s possible I over reacted. Please forgive me.

May God continue to Bless you and your family,

Love and prayers,
Pat

You are in my prayers. It’s not any easy thing to get through. And I don’t think you are trying to be judgmental at all. My only point is that it is difficult and probably not a good thing to get into personal faith journeys because we can never have the full story. This thread is really about doctrines within various religious organizations that claim to be Christian. These we must judge. Being Catholic, and believing with everything that I am that it is the one, true, Church, I hold it up as the standard against which all denominations must be measured.

That being said, this is not a judgment as to the salvation of particular members of any religious organization. That is up to God and God alone.

God bless.

 

[elvisman]

I’ve read this entire discussion and don’t understand a couple things. Is it true church teaching that in order to go to heaven I need to have been baptized in the Catholic Church before I die?

I’ve looked up all the bible references on baptism and I don’t see where it is required in order to go to heaven. Mark 16:16 does say He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. But the prerequsite there is belief, which suggests that a person must be at an age of understanding. Overwhelming all the verses on baptism first state that there must be belief (in Jesus) and because of that belief, then go and be baptized.

I can’t find one verse that suggests that baptizing a baby will help in any way get that baby/person into heaven.

According to Matt. 28:19-20, Jesus says that you can’t** be his disciple unless you’re baptized.**

---

According to John 3:5, Jesus says that you must be baptized (born of water and Spirit) or you can’t be saved.

---

According to Col. 2:12-13, Paul says that we are buried with Christ in Baptism and he brings us to life.

---

According to 2 Pet 3:21 – Baptism SAVES US.

---

*Baptism was foretold in the Old Testament. Ezek. 36:25 states, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”

*When St. Peter baptized Cornelius the Centurion, he baptized his entire household including children and servants (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14). We see the same thing in Acts 16:23-24 with the household of the Philippian jailer and 1 Cor. 1:16 with Stephanas’ household. The plain fact is that households include children of all ages, including infants.

When the disciples rebuked the children from approaching Jesus, He told them “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.” (Matt 19:14, Luke 18:16). Those who would keep the Sacrament of Baptism from infants are doing precisely what Christ himself disapproved of.

Just as with the Old Covenant and circumcision, the faith of the parents/guardians will guide the baptized child in the faith with the help of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant.

Finally - Acts 2:38-39 explicitly says:
***Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. ***
For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
**
I hope that is clear enough for you now . . .

 

[SteveVH]

I’ve read on this thread that in order to go to heaven, that I have to go through the Catholic Church? Have I read and understood right that this entire theology (the Catholic Church is God’s one and only true church) is based on one passage of scripture: Matt 16 verses 18 and 19?.

**18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **

I heard a preacher preach that you can only interpret scripture with scripture, that in order to better prove a point you need more one passage. Is there any other passage of scripture that points to the Catholic Church as the only true church?

First of all where do you read “that in order to go to heaven, that I have to go through the Catholic Church”? I haven’t seen that here but if it is here it is incorrect. The Catholic Church certainly doesn’t teach that.

As for the Catholic Church being the one, true Church, it can be proven historically that it is the Church that Christ founded upon Peter and the Apostles and that we have an unbroken line of succession from our current Pope all the way back to Peter. We are the only Church on the face of the earth that can legitimately make this claim. That being said, it does not mean that those outside of the Catholic Church cannot be saved. We believe that the Church that Christ started contains the fullness of truth, while those outside of the Catholic Church have varying degrees of truth, mixed with error. If one is following an erroneous doctrine they are in spiritual danger, but none of us can make the judgment call as to which particular person is saved or unsaved. That is God’s territory, not ours.

 

[SteveVH]

I’ve read this entire discussion and don’t understand a couple things. Is it true church teaching that in order to go to heaven I need to have been baptized in the Catholic Church before I die?

No, it is not Church teaching that you must be baptized in the Catholic Church in order to go to heaven. Our Church is very explicit that we accept baptism from nearly all Protestant denominations. We do not accept baptism from Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses because their beliefs are simply not Christian in the eyes of the Church.

If one is baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinity) with water, then you are baptized. As a matter of fact, if this can be documented, the Church would refuse to baptise you again as you can only receive baptism once.

I’ve looked up all the bible references on baptism and I don’t see where it is required in order to go to heaven. Mark 16:16 does say He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. But the prerequsite there is belief, which suggests that a person must be at an age of understanding. Overwhelming all the verses on baptism first state that there must be belief (in Jesus) and because of that belief, then go and be baptized.

I can’t find one verse that suggests that baptizing a baby will help in any way get that baby/person into heaven.

Elvisman has more than adequately answered this portion of your question. I would only add, as far as children are concerned, that Paul also said that baptism has taken the place of circumcision. When do you think the great majority of people were circumcised? I believe the Jews do this before the baby is eight days old.

Many Protestants are confused with this because they believe that baptism constitutes some sort of public statement of their belief in Jesus Christ and therefore one must have reached the age of reason in order to make this choice. In Catholicism, baptism is a sacrament, an act on behalf of God in which our souls are inhabited by the Holy Spirit, giving us supernatural life and allowing God to dwell within us.
Why would we not wish this for our children, no matter how young?

This is a great example of doctrines and beliefs that come about when one wanders too far from the original Church and does not have the benefit of its teaching which has not changed since its inception. Do you want to take the word of people who came on the scene 1500 years later, or those who were there in the beginning? The early Church certainly baptised infants as is evident in the passages Elvisman quoted.

 

[CMatt25]

we CANNOT judge salvation; but are to Judge works:

Still confused then why the Church has this in CCC 846.

“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

So take the person who once would have said they know the Catholic Church was necessary but no longer does. They might have had a change in beliefs and lets say they “do not remain” and they join a non Catholic ecclesial community.

“Could not” is a tense of “can not”.

So unless “could not” is taken as “might not” instead of “can not” those words still appear to me to be judging the salvation of that person.

But if it’s “might not”, why bother in the first place to put those words in there? As “might not” can apply to many others.

 

[elvisman]

Still confused then why the Church has this in CCC 846.

“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

So take the person who once would have said they know the Catholic Church was necessary but no longer does. They might have had a change in beliefs and lets say they “do not remain” and they join a non Catholic ecclesial community.

“Could not” is a tense of “can not”.

So unless “could not” is taken as “might not” instead of “can not” those words still appear to me to be judging the salvation of that person.

But if it’s “might not”, why bother in the first place to put those words in there? As “might not” can apply to many others.

I see no problem with this because it is talking about apostasy - turning your back on God and rejecting him.

The Scriptures refer to the Church as:
1. The pillar and foundation of truth - 1 Tim. 3:15
2. The fullness of Christ - Eph. 1:22-23
3. Christ himself - Acts 9:4-5
4. The Supreme authority on earth - Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 20:21-23
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to ALL truth - John 16:12-15

Jesus said of his Church:
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

---

That pretty much says it all.

 

[PJM]

=Stillchecking;7884231]I’ve read on this thread that in order to go to heaven, that I have to go through the Catholic Church? Have I read and understood right that this entire theology (the Catholic Church is God’s one and only true church) is based on one passage of scripture: Matt 16 verses 18 and 19?.

**18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **

I heard a preacher preach that you can only interpret scripture with scripture, that in order to better prove a point you need more one passage. Is there any other passage of scripture that points to the Catholic Church as the only true church?

I’ll try AGAIN to explain this to you my friend, as well as my fellow Catholics.

1. A note to catholics: Neither defined doctrine or dogma can ever be voided. AMEN!
2. That sais it neither says or implies that such can not “be added to” with ADDITIONAL UNDERSTANDING, that dies NOT change the previous defination.
3. It was the clear, and specif position of the CCup Vatican II that INDDED ONE MUST BE A MEMBER OF THE CC INORDER TO BE SAVED. PERIOD!
4. Keep in mind the owrld situation for MOST of this period: There was only [as God planed and desires; Eph. 4: 1-7; 2:18-22; the Catholic-Christian Faith. Not until the 13th. Century when Henry 8th. Founded the “chuirch of England” which remained regional, and Luther in the late 16th. Century was thier “competing christian faiths and churches.”

So the Church’s statement really was “be a Catholic/ Christian” or go to hell! And it made on Theologicaly sound principles.

1. The further one gets from the origins of Luther, Calvin, Smith Ect,; the less cupability the adherenets have. They are practicing what they are taught so MIGHT atlest be following Chrsit “to the best of their ability?” God ALONE can make this judgment call.
2. Given the “Age of technology” that we live it it is QUITE POSSIBLE that we are returning to a higher degree of probability [cupability] of “Knowing the Singular Truths” of the Catholic Faith; which puts all protestants ar FAR greater risk of salvation. The Bible is explicit on this. Eph. 4:1-7; 2: 18-22, Jn.14:16-17 and Jn.17:15-19.

God WILL; because God MUST judge each of us based on what we can know as being WHAT WE DO KNOW BUT CHOOSE FREELY TO IGNORE.

Because of the perponderance of people mixed in MANY THOUSANDS of protestant christian faith beliefs; many of them with OURE heats and honset desire; the Church knowing that God MUST be Fair and must be Just; recogonizes THE POSSIBILITY [ne certainty expressed] that such “persons as fellow-Christians,” ca and MIGHT through the CC gain entry to heaven.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

**819 **“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

The issue here is surrouned by “IF"S”… “IF” they cannot know the truth, “IF” their sins are forgiven [which ONLY a “PERFECT” act of Contrition and Conversion of heart can effect, and which ONLY God can know with certainity; then In God’s Judgment, such can go throuhj Purgatory and eventaully gain heave. AMEN That is what the CC Teaches and WE MUST accept.

I would POINT out a VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE: We Catholics can KNOW W/O assurence that our souls are W/O Mortal sin as a FACT[ Jn. 20:23]; while many Protestant THINK they are assured based on a false, unbillical understanding, and cannot even KNOW with certitude.

THEIR are GREAT benefits [Christ Himself in Person and Known forgiveness of sins, for example], to being in the Only Faith Founded and warrantied by Christ Himself as The Singular Truths of God’s One Faith/ One God. [Jn.14:16-17; Jn.17:15-19].

God Bless,
Pat If you have other questions send me a PM

 

[SteveVH]

The issue here is surrouned by “IF"S”… “IF” they cannot know the truth, “IF” their sins are forgiven [which ONLY a “PERFECT” act of Contrition and Conversion of heart can effect, and which ONLY God can know with certainity; then In God’s Judgment, such can go throuhj Purgatory and eventaully gain heave. AMEN That is what the CC Teaches and WE MUST accept.

I would POINT out a VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE: We Catholics can KNOW W/O assurence that our souls are W/O Mortal sin as a FACT[ Jn. 20:23]; while many Protestant THINK they are assured based on a false, unbillical understanding, and cannot even KNOW with certitude.

THEIR are GREAT benefits [Christ Himself in Person and Known forgiveness of sins, for example], to being in the Only Faith Founded and warrantied by Christ Himself as The Singular Truths of God’s One Faith/ One God. [Jn.14:16-17; Jn.17:15-19].

God Bless,
Pat If you have other questions send me a PM

You’ve made some great points here. What I find wonderful and frightening at the same time is that the CC does have the fullness of truth, yet we have so many Catholics who choose not to obtain this truth in their own lives. They, above all, are more culpable than non-Catholics.