How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

[John_oxios]

But, when someone walks away from their Catholic faith, and no longer attends, or receives the Eucharist or any Sacraments, they have excommunicated themselves. That’s what I did.

Hello, True
Okay, are ya dead yet? We have this life to repent of our sin, and seek God’s Grace and mercy.

Read your Bible, Israel has/was always breaking Covenant with God, God withdraws his Favor, so Israel would turn to Him in their plight, God restores favor… and so on…and so on.

Peter denies Christ what three times? Biblically #3 represents a totality… so Peter Denies Christ totally! And Christ restores Peter totally… and Peter leads Christ Church through persecution and martyrdom.

God is always there waiting for our return… Ever hear of the Prodigal son?

Read the Book of Hosea God uses Hosea Family life as a symbolic vehicle for divine communication… Of Israel’s rebellions and restorations for ex.

Hosea 10:13- 15 "…Because you have trusted in your chariots and in the multitude of your warriors,
therefore the tumult of war shall arise among your people, and all your fortresses shall be destroyed, as Shalman destroyed Beth-ar’bel on the day of battle; mothers were dashed in pieces with their children.
Thus it shall be done to you, O house of Israel, because of your great wickedness. In the storm the king of Israel shall be utterly cut off.

By chapter 14, God uses Hosea to call back Israel to live beneath His Shadow again. (vss 7,8)

Lam 1:11 All her people groan as they search for bread; they trade their treasures for food to revive their strength. “Look, O LORD, and behold, for I am despised.”

Jer 4:1 "If you return, O Israel, says the LORD, to me you should return. If you remove your abominations from my presence, and do not waver,

It’s human to fall away, nobodies perfect… some fall away because the death of someone close… some fall away because they begin to believe the lies said agains the Church, some rebel against God, and/or The Church.

The ones who fell away and return are that much stronger in their faith, cause they know the difference.

Isaiah questions God ways,and the LORD answers…“Come let us argue it out…”( Isa 1:18) & Following phrases (ff).
If your willing and obedient you shall eat the good of the land, but if your rebel yo shall be devoured by the sword…"

We build character by learning from our mistake or watching the Mistakes of others.
We all fall short,

In our separation or sin God doesn’t punish us… We punish ourselves!So saith Scripture:
Wisdom 1:12
Court not death by your erring way of life, nor draw to yourselves destruction by the works of your hands.
13
Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.

If you’re keeping yourself away because you think you fall short, guilt, or not worthy…
Join the club, no one is worthy… But in Jesus Sacrifice we are made worthy.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Yes professing Jesus Christ the Son of God and Lord and Savior I believe is sufficient to be called a Christian.

I’d say to them if they believe Jesus is the Son of God and Lord and Savior, then welcome my fellow follower, my brother or sister in Christ. Let us strive together, united in our belief in Him, to glorify His name as we walk our lifetime journeys with Him. I’d say God speed and God bless you along the way and peace be with you always.

Hello CMatt,
That’s a start, but Christianity is a community held together by the holy Spirit, which helps us along to come to know Christ… Honoring Jesus with your lips… doesn’t work alone… faith is belief in action,

Isa 29:13 And the Lord said: "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote;

acknowledging Christ ought to prompt you to being baptized, and seek Him.

James 1:22,23,
"Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror."
if we are not striving forward we’re falling back!

God bless,
john

 

[John_oxios]

But, when someone walks away from their Catholic faith, and no longer attends, or receives the Eucharist or any Sacraments, they have excommunicated themselves. That’s what I did.

ANNd whoever brought you back gets kudos in heaven!!!

James 5: 19,20

  "My brothers, **if anyone among you should stray** from the truth and someone bring him back,he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Not for nuthin’ those who keep you out, calling you ex-commmunicated, grave sinner , worst off than before…

Are worst off then those attempting to walk thorough your return. On Judgement Day, We get judged by how we judged others.

God bless,
john

 

[John_oxios]

I’ve read on this thread that in order to go to heaven, that I have to go through the Catholic Church? Have I read and understood right that this entire theology (the Catholic Church is God’s one and only true church) is based on one passage of scripture: Matt 16 verses 18 and 19?.

**18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **

I heard a preacher preach that you can only interpret scripture with scripture, that in order to better prove a point you need more one passage. Is there any other passage of scripture that points to the Catholic Church as the only true church?

One Scripture you say??? Let’s start with what we can agree with (a) Jesus is God, (b) God doesn’t change, (c) the Bible explains itself with precedence (according to an acknowledged or legally determined system)

A Biblical Precedence for One Man set over God’s people

Now Let’s go to Sacred Scripture:

Num 27:15- 23 (RSV)
15 Moses said to the LORD,

"Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,

who shall go out before them and come in before them, **who shall lead them** out and bring them in; **that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd."**
And the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him;

cause him to stand before Elea'zar the priest and all the congregation, and** you shall commission **him in their sight.

You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.

And he shall stand before Elea'zar the priest, who shall inquire for him by the judgment of the Urim before the LORD; at his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he and all the people of Israel with him, the whole congregation."

And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea'zar the priest and the whole congregation,

23 and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him as the LORD directed through Moses

Acts 1:15 Act 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,

Act 1:16 "Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry…

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and ‘His office let another take.’
Act 1:21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen
Act 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”
Act 1:26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles

God appointed one man over the whole Congregation to follow Moses, God sent prophets to appoint men to lead to lead Israel, Jesus gives authority to Peter, whose position as head shepherd is filled whenever vacated. The Roman Catholic Church still follows this procedure they pray to God for guidance to elect a Man to be the next Shepherd to lead Christ’s Church and there is a Laying on of Hands in front of the whole community, Until Christ returns

Remember “the Church is the Bulwark and Pillar of Truth” So saith Sacred Scripture 1 (Tim 3:15)

God bless,
John

 

[graceandglory]

Hello, True
Okay, are ya dead yet? We have this life to repent of our sin, and seek God’s Grace and mercy.

Read your Bible,
.
.
If you’re keeping yourself away because you think you fall short, guilt, or not worthy…
Join the club, no one is worthy… But in Jesus Sacrifice we are made worthy.

God bless,
John

John,
My name above, shows that I have come back. I was just explaining the state of my Catholicity, during the 20 yrs I was away from the Church. Look up underneath my name, it says “revert” which means that I have come back and have fully embraced ALL the truths of the Catholic Church.

 

[elvisman]

Elvis, I don’t think I was clear enough in the post of mine you reference. I was asking Stillchecking if infants could not have been in the households? So I’m with you on this one. See contrary perhaps to popular belief, I’m not always arguing against what you say.

Peace.

Then I owe you an apology. I was under the impression that this was your belief because Stillchecking’s comments were not posted in your response.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, thank you for taking the time to answer my post, but no it is still not clear enough for me. My question is on the merits of baptizing infants and my point is that scripture indicates that first one believes and then one is baptized.

Matt. 28:19-20 does tell us to baptize others, but first make them disciples.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Water does not mean baptism here. It is the word of God that washes us with water. After all, what gives you your faith, that your forehead was once sprinkled with water, or the Bible?

Col. 2:12-13 That’s fine, I believe in baptism, but this passage doesn’t answer my question on baptizing infants, or counter my point that first one must believe and then go and be baptized.

1 Pet 3:21 Peter is talking to the believers in Jesus who would have subsequently been baptized. I believe Hitler was baptized a catholic, are you saying his baptism assured him heaven?

Acts 10:1-49 In verse 2 there it says Cornelius and all his household feared God…again, first faith then Baptism

Acts 11:13-14 **he will speak words to you by which you will be saved **Again it’s the WORD that saves

Acts 16:23-24 I don’t see anything there on this subject

1 Cor. 1:16 Does not say infants, it says all his household, which was a household of people who first believed.

I’ve been to many many catholic funerals and over and over throuhout the mass and the graveside service, I hear the priest say “we are saved by baptism” It’s to make the family feel good, but it isn’t biblical.

That’s funny. I’ve heard several Protestant interpretations of John 3 and they usually mean EVERYTHING but baptism. There is even one silly interpretation that Jesus is speaking of the amniotic fluid that surrounds the unborn child in the womb.

The fact of the matter is that Jesus was speaking about WATER Baptism, just as he did in Matt. 28:19-20.

Secondly – Acts 10:2, Luke was using inclusive language here. The same type of inclusive language is used many times in Scripture, including:
Josh. 24:15
“As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord”.
REALLY? Even the babies in the house are serving the Lord?

Rom 3:12
“All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.”
Really? ALL have gone astray? What about infants and the severely retarded? What about Jesus? He was also a man.

1 Pet 3:21** tells us that we are saved BY Baptism. It is not simply faith but BAPTISM.**
Your weak argument about Hitler only serves to support the Catholic position that you can*** LOSE***** your salvation by turning your back on God as Hitler presumably did.**

As for your belief that there were no children below the age of reason in Cornelius’ household – this is a preposterous assumption. Households
include everybody.

**What about with the household of the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:23-24) and the household of Stephanas (1 Cor. 1:16)? Did they also exclude children? Oh, by the way – NOWHERE does 1 Cor. 1 say that Stephanas’s household had faith first. Paul simply says that he baptized the household… **

Acts 2:39 explicitly states:
***“For ***the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."

Finally – you mention Acts 11:13-14 about being saved by the word. Every Protestant theologian in the world disagrees with you because they say that FAITH saves us. The word is the CAUSE but faith, Baptism and salvation are the effect.

 

[John_oxios]

John,
My name above, shows that I have come back. I was just explaining the state of my Catholicity, during the 20 yrs I was away from the Church. Look up underneath my name, it says “revert” which means that I have come back and have fully embraced ALL the truths of the Catholic Church.

Hey teach,

               Sorry I didn't notice the top right corner of the heading.

             Learned a new word expression  I would use reconvert :to change back to a previous form, opinion, character, or function.

revert: to return to a former habit, practice, belief, condition, etc.: They reverted to the ways of their forefathers.

God Bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

You got to like what PMJ writes here, reread what PMJ posted:

per PMJ:** My dear friend in Christ, If, IF, Baptism were not to include infants two things would be evident:

1. Such a VITAL instruction would be expressely articulated in the Bible,it’s NOT!**

Excuse me PMJ, but if baptism of infants was as important as catholics say it is, it would be expressly written in the bible, more than once. It is not. Not once.

Baptism is well addressed in the bible. Faith is a pre requisite.

Hi StillCheck,
The problem with the Literal Word is miss its full intentions i.e. Spiritual, the allegorical, tropological, anagogical,

A Protestant commentary on Acts 16:33

//www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=2&contentID=7969&commInfo=31&topic=Acts&ar=Act_16_33

a. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes: The same jailer who had been punishing them was now ministering to Paul and Silas, caring for their wounds and he set food before them. This shows how repentant he was and how he followed the example of love shown by Paul and Silas.

b. And immediately he and all his family were baptized: The jailer and his family saw no reason to delay baptism; they were baptized that very night, and all this began around midnight (Acts 16:25).

Matthew Henry (Commentary)

7.) The voice of rejoicing with that of salvation was heard in the jailer’s house; never was such a truly merry night kept there before: He rejoiced, believing in God, with all his house. There was none in his house that refused to be baptized, and so made a jar in the harmony; but they were unanimous in embracing the gospel, which added much to the joy. Or it may be read, He, believing in God, rejoiced all the house over; panoiki—he went to every apartment, expressing his joy. Observe, [1.] His believing in Christ is called believing in God, which intimates that Christ is God, and that the design of the gospel is so far from being to draw us from God (saying, Go serve other gods, Deu. 13:2) that it has a direct tendency to bring us to God. [2.] His faith produced joy. Those that by faith have given up themselves to God in Christ as theirs have a great deal of reason to rejoice. The eunuch, when he was converted, went on his way rejoicing; and here the jailer rejoiced. The conversion of the nations is spoken of in the Old Testament as their rejoicing, Ps. 67:4; 96:11. For, believing, we rejoice with joy unspeakable, and full of glory. Believing in Christ is rejoicing in Christ. [3.] He signified his joy to all about him. ** Out of the abundance of the joy in his heart, his mouth spoke to the glory of God, and their encouragement who believed in God too. Those who have themselves tasted the comforts of religion should do what they can to bring others to the taste of them**. One cheerful Christian should make many.

Even as a protestant could you withhold the Joy and faith from your children/ infants? And how? by withholding the The Good News, Christ and the Holy Spirit through Baotism.

God bless,
John

 

[PJM]

=graceandglory;7897925]But, when someone walks away from their Catholic faith, and no longer attends, or receives the Eucharist or any Sacraments, they have excommunicated themselves. That’s what I did.

WELCOME BACK HOME FRIEND!

God Bless you,

Pat

 

[CMatt25]

I was offended when I came back to the Catholic CHurch, that people would tell me “once Catholic, always Catholic.” I did not consider myself Catholic all those years away. As I grew as a Catholic, I realize that all those years I was just a separated Catholic. I was Catholic through and through, but didn’t realize it. I always want to be very honest with myself and others.

I understand but honesty might also be why they told you what they did because that is what the Church teaches regarding who they identify as Catholic. Even separated, even excommunicated Catholics are still Catholics in the eyes of the Church. In any case peace be with you.

 

[CMatt25]

Then I owe you an apology. I was under the impression that this was your belief because Stillchecking’s comments were not posted in your response.

No problem Elvis. :hug3:

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

What is the minimum required in order to hold the title “Christian”?

This is just a guess, I think that the minimum requirement in order to hold the title “Christian” is:

Belief in the Trinity and a Belief in, & Practice of, Baptism.

I’m sure that reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church would give the precise answer.

 

[Stillchecking]

Again, my point is that baptism does not save us: I defended accurately the verses thrown out there. Now John oxios cites Acts 16 33 saying:

And immediately he and all his family were baptized: The jailer and his family saw no reason to delay baptism; they were baptized that very night
The reason you ought to want Bibles in those pews rather than missals is so not let them skip verses that aren’t convenient. If you back up a verse we pick up with the apostles in verse 32 ** And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.**

So before all that were in that house were baptized, we learn that all heard the word of the Lord.

First comes faith in Jesus Christ (born again) then comes baptism, if one is inclined to do so, which would be the obediant thing to do.

 

[John_oxios]

Again, my point is that baptism does not save us:

Hi Stillchecking,
go check again, the God parted the Red Sea and Israel is saved, through water… see 1 Peter 3:20 (below) Sacred Scripture states “Baptism now saves you”
So before all that were in that house were baptized, we learn that all heard the word of the Lord.
an infant child can’t hear? He may not understand the words but he can hear! Understanding come thorugh family practice and instruction.

For Catholics We are baptized once but continually renew our Baptismal vows @ every Easter.
How is it you can deny the act of Baptism? Water cleanses, it is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. It is more than symbolic, “the Jews believe a symbol is 'reality distilled” ‘actually happening’ (Herman Wouk) protestants made symbols something almost insignificant… but biblically that is not so. They’ve also took the mystery out of of our faith.
Sacrament: three things are necessary: the outward sign; the inward grace; Divine institution.

How do we know God exists? by the physical world

Taking the word “sacrament” in its broadest sense, as **the sign of something sacred and hidden **(the Greek word is “mystery”), we can say that the whole world is a vast sacramental system, in that material things are unto men the signs of things spiritual and sacred, even of the Divinity. “The heavens show forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands” (Psalm 18:2). The invisible things of him *, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity"

Hbr 11: 1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

St. Thomas Aquinas,“The sign of a sacred thing in so far as it sanctifies men”

Salvation was granted through faith in the promised Redeemer, and men expressed that faith by some external signs. What those signs should be God did not determine, leaving this for the people, most probably to the leaders or heads of families, who were guided in their choice by an interior inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

I am full aware of the vss before… the point I was making is once they heard the Word of God they wanted to get Baptized without delay!! WHY? because they were prompted to do so by the Holy Spirit. if you believe, why is baptism so difficult to move onto?

Jesus gets baptized not because He is a sinner, but to fulfill the word of God proclaimed by His prophets. He must be baptized to reveal that He is the Christ…

John Baptizes to prepare the way for Christ:

Matt 3:3"…Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
3: 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

If this is so insignificant why?

And beginning at Pentecost, like a river of living water, for all ages He will pour out His Spirit on His body, the Church

Baptism fulfills the covenant God made with Noah. No longer does water destroy the sinful. Now** it saves the sinne**r, destroys the sin . But whereas the flood and the ark saved only eight people, in the saving waters of Baptism, in the ark of the Church, all humankind may find salvation.

1Pe 3:20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The waters of Baptism are also likened to the miracle of the parted waters of the Red Sea. When Moses led the people through the waters of the Red Sea, fed them with spiritual food and drink, it was to show us an “example” of our life in the Church.

We will be saved in the waters of Baptism, guided by the Spirit, nourished by the Eucharist in the wilderness of the world (see 1 Corinthians 10).

Receiving the Spirit in Baptism, each man and woman is made a “new creation” (see 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). According to St. James: “He willed to give us birth by the word of truth that we may be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures” (see James 1:18)

This new birth is celebrated throughout the New Testament: “See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God” (see 1 John 3:1).

This is why the Apostles, like Paul, called themselves spiritual “fathers” (see Philemon 10) and referred to their new converts as “children” (see 1 Thessalonians 2:11) and even “newborn infants” (see 1 Peter 2:2).

Anyone approaching the altar of God had to wash with water, first

Exd 30:20 ,

Exd 40:12 "… bring Aaron and his sons to the door of the tent of meeting, and shall wash them with water
Lev 8:6 “Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water
Num 8:7 " to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of expiation upon them,”

Eze 36:25 “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”

The new heart of flesh comes through Baptism: We have to be cleaned before God places a new spirit in us.

Eze 36:26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

and to deny that is prideful and hard of heart.

God bless,
john*

 

[John_oxios]

Again, my point is that baptism does not save us: .

Hello again,
I had to cut down a lot of my last post. Biblically in each of the six Covenants God gave a sign,

[Incidentally, did you know that the word “oath” translates the Latin word sacramentum, where we get our word "sacrament.]

1st Covenant Adam and Eve, God establishes a sign by which the covenant will be remembered and celebrated - the Sabbath, the seventh day of rest. They are given one condition," do not eat of the Tree of Good and bad"

2nd Covenant Noah and his family, The sign of the covenant is the rainbow in the sky
conditions that must be obeyed (not to drink the blood of any animals, not to shed human blood).

3rd Covenant Abraham and His descendants, The sign mark of circumcision. Circumcision is also the condition that Abraham and his descendants must obey in order to keep the covenanT

4th Covenant Moses and the Israelites sign the Law he conditions of the covenant are that they must keep God’s Law and commandments.
The covenant sign is the Passover, which each year commemorates Israel’s birth as a nation.

5th Covenant David and the Kingdom Israel,
God promises to establish the mediator David’s “house” or kingdom forever, through David’s heir, who will also build a temple to God’s name. The sign of the covenant will be **the throne and Temple **to be built by David’s son, Solomon. By this covenant, God’s family grows to take the form of a royal empire, a national kingdom.

6th Covenant Jesus and the Church

e sixth and final covenant made by the mediator Jesus, who by His Cross and Resurrection assumes the role of royal high priest and fulfills all the promises God made in the previous covenants.

The prophets, especially Isaiah and Jeremiah, had taught Israel to hope for a Messiah who would bring “a new covenant,” through which God’s law would be written on men’s and women’s hearts (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12).

The conditions of the covenant are that men and women believe in Jesus, be baptized, eat and drink His flesh and blood in the Eucharist, and live by all that He taught. The Eucharist is the sign of the New Covenant. By this covenant, God establishes His family in its final form as a universal (katholicos or ‘catholic’ in Greek) worldwide kingdom, which Jesus calls His Church.

Under Christ New Covenant, what are your conditions and signs?

 

[elvisman]

Again, my point is that baptism does not save us: I defended accurately the verses thrown out there. Now John oxios cites Acts 16 33 saying:

And immediately he and all his family were baptized: The jailer and his family saw no reason to delay baptism; they were baptized that very night
The reason you ought to want Bibles in those pews rather than missals is so not let them skip verses that aren’t convenient. If you back up a verse we pick up with the apostles in verse 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

So before all that were in that house were baptized, we learn that all heard the word of the Lord.

First comes faith in Jesus Christ (born again) then comes baptism, if one is inclined to do so, which would be the obediant thing to do.

**And YOU ought to address the points that prove you wrong - like my response in post #126 instead of brushing them off. **

---

**It’s okay to have an opinion about something but look at the facts before giving up and *****falsely ***claiming victory . . .

 

[GaryTaylor]

You point that Baptism doesn’t save you is Incorrrect. You cannot be Saved without Baptism. Its a basic requirement of all Christians as belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is.

Faith is an infused Supernatural Virtue that each of us receive at the moment of Baptism.

To save our Soul, we have an Obligation to keep the faith. Faith is not a Blind or Vague concept. faith is very well defined.

This infused Virtue does not always remain in every baptised Soul. In some case’s it is Lost.

Some are nor aware it is our responsibility to preserve this Sacrement or Virtue. Each of us has an Obligation to preserve this.

The basis of Salvation is faith. It is impossible to please God without faith. Faith alone is not enough, but it absolutely necessary for our salvation.

If we lose our faith we cannot be saved unless the faith is regained.

One must also understand something in Catholic teaching. Anyone who is not catholic does not have what the Church defines as faith, because the faith is a Supernatural Virtue that empoweres us to believe Gods teachings.

Because a heretic rejects some Dogmas his belief is not based on faith. When a man knoiws that everything Gods teachs is True because the Faithful Soul knows that God who is all Holy cannot lie and cannot be mistaken.

To know what our faith as catholics teachs is to immediatly accept it as Doctrine.

Many Christians believe they can do Good on there own? Or any Good we have is not through the Grace of God? You should know this, it would be easier to live without oxygen, than to be Good without Gods Grace.

I guess it comes down to accepting the CCC and Dogma and Doctrine on the Church Baptism or not. But I would give it a read and seriously think about it.

God Bless, Gary

 

[John_oxios]

Again, my point is that baptism does not save us: I defended accurately the verses thrown out there. …

First comes faith in Jesus Christ (born again) then comes baptism, if one is inclined to do so, which would be the obediant thing to do.

Born again of water and spirit,

Baptize is used some 76 time in the New Testament, You still think it’s unimportant?

from the lexicon:
strongs G 907 Baptizo

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

“Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John’s) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.). Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John’s baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John’s was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John’s pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4),
it became obsolete when He came. Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit.” (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)

Receiving Baptism is an outward sign of Faith in Jesus’ life, death and Resurrection.

www.bible-history.com/eastons/B/Baptism+of+Christ/

John refused at first to confer his baptism on Christ, for he
understood not what he had to do with the “baptism of
repentance.” But Christ said, “‘Suffer it to be so now,’ NOW as
suited to my state of humiliation, my state as a substitute in
the room of sinners.” His reception of baptism was not necessary
on his own account. It was a voluntary act, the same as his act
of becoming incarnate. Yet if the work he had engaged to
accomplish was to be completed, then it became him to take on
him the likeness of a sinner, and to fulfil all righteousness
(Matt. 3:15).

Jesus submits to Baptism which is not necessary for Him. And the Father calls from heaven: Mat 3:17 "… saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

How was the world saved? Through water

Gen 6:12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

InGenesis 6, Noah is called to build the Ark, as God command because He is going to destroy sin in the world…through That Ark is Christ, and He saved us through Water.

1Pe 3:20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Before you came to Jesus were you obedient to the Teaching of Christ? No!
But just because you say, “I believe” you believe you are washed clean of your sins?

Submitting to Baptism is an acknowledgement of true repentance, without repentance There is no forgiveness.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized ** every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit**.

We can’t truly acknowledge Christ without the Holy Spirit, THroughout the NEW Testament , wheb people recognized Christ through the Word of God, by witness of the Disciples the Holy Spirit moves them to be Baptized without delay.

Act 10:47 “**Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people **who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Only we ourselves through unbelief, misunderstanding or pride cannot deny/withhold ourselves from the grace of God, through the Holy Spirit and Christ.

Psa 31:18 Let the lying lips be dumb, which speak insolently against the righteous in pride and contempt.

Sirach 10:12
The beginning of pride is man’s stubbornness in withdrawing his heart from his Maker;
13) For pride is the reservoir of sin, a source which runs over with vice; Because of it God sends unheard-of afflictions and brings men to utter ruin.

more to come

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Again, my point is that baptism does not save us: I defended accurately the verses thrown out there. …
First comes faith in Jesus Christ (born again) then comes baptism, if one is inclined to do so, which would be the obediant thing to do.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Jesus does as the Father wills, Jesus submits to Baptism, ‘stillcheck’ still thinks it’s unnecessary?

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

you may be born again? But your not born anew!

In John 3:3 in the Greek the word is’ anothen’ Strong # G507

1. from above, from a higher place
   a) of things which come from heaven or God
2. from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3. anew, over again

Jesus uses it as ‘Born anew’ (KJV) and or ‘from Above’ (RSV)

Jhn 3:31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth belongs to the earth, and of the earth he speaks; he who comes from heaven is above all.

But Nicodemus understands it as 'again"
Jhn 3:4 Nicode’mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?

You may be born again… But through Baptism in the Name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit, Children of God are all born anew.

The Church knows that these words of God are so powerful, anyone from Clergy, to lay person, a Jew… can Baptize in an emergency… and when reported to the Church, it will be registered as a Baptism. But ya can’t baptize yourself.

Been to some Baptist and evangelical baptisms they were full immersions in large tubs, pools everyone submitting that I have seen come out of the water happy, to having submit to becoming ‘born anew’

Maybe in the Next life, you can submit to being baptized!

If you believe what’s keeping you from Baptism in this one?

God bless,
John