How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

[CMatt25]

What is the minimum required in order to hold the title “Christian”?

Minimum? I kind of like the way the denomination known as the Christian Church Disciples of Christ answers it. If you’ve been baptized. They themselves immerse but accept other forms. And if you profess Jesus Lord and Savior. Then you’re in! Can’t get much more minimum than that!

 

[JeanMichel]

This question has been posed constantly within the Church. If we are to be Christian what beliefs ought we to have and that without having we are heretics. People have been burned at the stake for possessing conflicting beliefs with the Church.

In my humble opinion I break the question into two parts. One, I try to understand who followed Jesus during his life. They believed in Jesus as the promised Messiah, were recognized as his disciples, and many died as martyrs. All of them are and were worthy of being identified as being Christian. Two, being a Catholic is most certainly being a Christian. Those who conflict in doctrine with the Church can not be considered part of the catholic family (catholic intentionally not capitalized) and thus they stand apart.

I believe that God hears the prayers of those who believe in Him and follow his commandments. God does not first ask which church does one belong before he listens or answers. Being a member is nice, but being a “doer” is even of more worth. We shall know Christians by their works. I also think that people on are a path to return to God. Some are much further along the path and know so much more to others. I am unwilling to turn our backs on those that have just a few truths and still wander off the path. These are the lost sheep and we need to pray for them and love them. They all will come to us for a better understanding of Jesus and his Church and needing to be introduced to it.

 

[SteveVH]

In my humble opinion I break the question into two parts. One, I try to understand who followed Jesus during his life. They believed in Jesus as the promised Messiah, were recognized as his disciples, and many died as martyrs. All of them are and were worthy of being identified as being Christian.

Then, by definition, these first Christians would have to be identified as Catholic (with a big C) Christians since no other Church existed at that time.

[Those who conflict in doctrine with the Church can not be considered part of the catholic family (catholic intentionally not capitalized) and thus they stand apart.

I’m a little confused here. When you refer to being in conflict with the doctrine of the “Church” are you referring to the Catholic (with a big C) Church and then also referring to the catholic (with a small c) church as a reference to all Christian denominations? Could you please explain. Thanks.

Couldn’t agree more. *

[/quote]

 

[SteveVH]

Minimum? I kind of like the way the denomination known as the Christian Church Disciples of Christ answers it. If you’ve been baptized. They themselves immerse but accept other forms. And if you profess Jesus Lord and Savior. Then you’re in! Can’t get much more minimum than that!

Do you think the minimum is sufficient? There are posters from some faith traditions on this forum who reject the Trinity, reject the creeds, reject the Eucharist, reject practically everything that the early Church taught, and yet still have a form of baptism and profess Jesus as Lord and Savior and call themselves “Christian”. What would you say to them?

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not yet. I’m looking into some local parishes, and plan to attend them to see where I would like to be involved. My girlfriend is Catholic, but her family hasn’t been happy with their local parish, so we will start attending mass together at some of the other nearby options.

My whole extended family is protestant, so I do fear that there may be some minor fireworks when they find out that I am planning on ‘going’ Catholic. I worry that they will think I am doing it for my girlfriend, but I have spent the past three years trying to show her the light of protestantism, only to find that I have been misled about Catholic theology and the history of the Church. The work of Michael Cumbie and Tim Staples have been instrumental in my change of heart.

The family thing can get a little sticky, but finding the truth is worth it. There are many very courageous people who suffer much for their faith. Hang in there.

 

[SteveVH]

Mainstream society puts then aside because of their evangelic tactics of walking to your door and bothering you. Or because of the shunning of family who leave their church, funny underwear, no tranfusions for emergency medical treatment… not because of any theological test and definitions

I’m not sure I would agree with you on that one. It is specifically the theological tests that seem to seperate us, the rest is just window dressing. I don’t particularly care if someone wants to knock on my door. I’m usually happy to invite them in no matter what faith tradition they are touting. It is the denial of the divinity of Christ, or the rejection of the Trinity, or some other basic Christian doctrine that places them outside of the Christian family. That is really at the heart of this thread. Does it matter what one believes, or is it ok just to profess a belief in Christ (no matter what that beliefe is)?

 

[TimothyH]

Our Lutheran Confessions disagree with you from Luther’s Augsburg Confession at the Diet of Worms 1521.
Article VII - The Church
1 Our churches teach that one holy Church is to remain forever. The Church is the congregation of saints [Psalm 149:1] in which the Gospel is purely taught and the Sacraments are correctly administered. 2 For the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree about the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. 3 It is not necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies instituted by men, should be the same everywhere. 4 As Paul says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all” (Ephesians 4:5–6). and:

Article VIII - What the Church is.
1 Strictly speaking, the Church is the congregation of saints and true believers. However, because many hypocrites and evil persons are mingled within them in this life [Matthew 13:24–30], it is lawful to use Sacraments administered by evil men, according to the saying of Christ, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat” (Matthew 23:2). 2 Both the Sacraments and Word are effective because of Christ’s institution and command, even if they are administered by evil men.
3 Our churches condemn the Donatists, and others like them, who deny that it is lawful to use the ministry of evil men in the Church, and who think that the ministry of evil men is not useful and is ineffective.

Article 24 of your Lutheran Confession is incorrect in that it defines the Church as an invisible, spiritual union of true believers.

Christ had one body. His body was physical, visible and present in creation. And his body is the Church. The Church therefor, is visible and one.

And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)

Either you believe Christ or you don’t.

-Tim-

 

[CMatt25]

Do you think the minimum is sufficient? There are posters from some faith traditions on this forum who reject the Trinity, reject the creeds, reject the Eucharist, reject practically everything that the early Church taught, and yet still have a form of baptism and profess Jesus as Lord and Savior and call themselves “Christian”. What would you say to them?

Yes professing Jesus Christ the Son of God and Lord and Savior I believe is sufficient to be called a Christian.

I’d say to them if they believe Jesus is the Son of God and Lord and Savior, then welcome my fellow follower, my brother or sister in Christ. Let us strive together, united in our belief in Him, to glorify His name as we walk our lifetime journeys with Him. I’d say God speed and God bless you along the way and peace be with you always.

 

[comrade1789]

I’ve pondered this question a lot lately. When I hear of Presbyterian Church USA, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, Epicopalian and United Church of Christ all pushing for openly homesexual clergy, validation of homosexual practice, pro-abortion stances and push for so called gay “marriage,” there is no way in good conscience that I can believe that is Christian. It has all the words and decor of Christianity, but teaches doctrines of devils.

I gladly have more to do with self-professed secularist pagans than I wil with anyone who professes the faith and yet holds to such abominations. They don’t submit to Christ, they want Christ to submit to the world, and so their “version” of Christianity resembles the filth of the world, because they love darkness more than light, and do not want to submit their sins to Christ to be forgiven and redeemed; instead they want validation for their wickedness. They ignore the teachings of Scripture and the Apostles, ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and willful ignorance retains all culpability.

There are however, many holy and devout Protestants, denominations that do very well without possessing the fullness of the Catholic Faith, simply because they sincerely love God and have hearts that will to do the will of God, rather than their own wills. Even within the groups I mentioned can be found those who are staying close to the teachings of Christ and Scripture.

 

[hn160]

Article 24 of your Lutheran Confession is incorrect in that it defines the Church as an invisible, spiritual union of true believers.

Christ had one body. His body was physical, visible and present in creation. And his body is the Church. The Church therefor, is visible and one.

And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)

Either you believe Christ or you don’t.

-Tim-

It all depends upon your point of view, Lutheran or Catholic.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes professing Jesus Christ the Son of God and Lord and Savior I believe is sufficient to be called a Christian.

I’d say to them if they believe Jesus is the Son of God and Lord and Savior, then welcome my fellow follower, my brother or sister in Christ. Let us strive together, united in our belief in Him, to glorify His name as we walk our lifetime journeys with Him. I’d say God speed and God bless you along the way and peace be with you always.

That is very magnanimous of you, but what if the person went on to say that Jesus was not divine, was only a man, but still believed that He was the son of God and had come to save them. In charity, I don’t want to get real specific here but I think you know what I’m talking about. In other words, if a person had fallen into a belief already condemned by the Church as heresy, concerning the nature of God and our salvation, should we still pat them on the back and walk our lifetime journeys with them or should we try to correct them?

 

[SteveVH]

This question has been posed constantly within the Church. If we are to be Christian what beliefs ought we to have and that without having we are heretics. People have been burned at the stake for possessing conflicting beliefs with the Church.

In my humble opinion I break the question into two parts. One, I try to understand who followed Jesus during his life. They believed in Jesus as the promised Messiah, were recognized as his disciples, and many died as martyrs. All of them are and were worthy of being identified as being Christian. Two, being a Catholic is most certainly being a Christian. Those who conflict in doctrine with the Church can not be considered part of the catholic family (catholic intentionally not capitalized) and thus they stand apart.

Are you refer to “Church” are you refering to the cannot be considered part of the “catholic” (universal) church

I believe that God hears the prayers of those who believe in Him and follow his commandments. God does not first ask which church does one belong before he listens or answers. Being a member is nice, but being a “doer” is even of more worth. We shall know Christians by their works. I also think that people on are a path to return to God. Some are much further along the path and know so much more to others. I am unwilling to turn our backs on those that have just a few truths and still wander off the path. These are the lost sheep and we need to pray for them and love them. They all will come to us for a better understanding of Jesus and his Church and needing to be introduced to it.

 

[CMatt25]

That is very magnanimous of you, but what if the person went on to say that Jesus was not divine, was only a man, but still believed that He was the son of God and had come to save them. In charity, I don’t want to get real specific here but I think you know what I’m talking about. In other words, if a person had fallen into a belief already condemned by the Church as heresy, concerning the nature of God and our salvation, should we still pat them on the back and walk our lifetime journeys with them or should we try to correct them?

Yes I believe so. And well yes to the 2nd question too if by correcting them you mean can we try to share our beliefs with them. We do it everyday here on CAF.

A question was asked in OP and I can only answer by what I believe. I’m not going to start WW III over it. Peace.

 

[franny50]

I think Protestants are Christians as well.I’ve been fortunate in my life to know many devoted christians from other denominations,whose faith is just as valid,as say someone from a catholic church.They are devoted to God and follow the ten commandments.I have seen a stronger sense of fellowship in other denominations.Most protestants also seem to be more familiar with the bible,because tradition is less important than in the catholic church

 

[Stillchecking]

We make it too complicated, Paul says it simply. Romans 10:9: if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
We are seperated from God because of our sin. No one can keep the 10 commandments, I don’t think we can keep even 1. Jesus set the bar when he said: if you look upon a women with lust in your heart, you have commited adultery. And who has not stolen a cookie?

Being a christian does not require becoming a catholic. Being a christian is to be a follower of Jesus. I believe the best way to follow him is to be in his word, the bible.

 

[babylonsfalling]

There are many who claim the title “Christian”. I am curious as to how far one can depart from the teachings of the original Church before you would consider them not Christian. Where do we draw the line? Does rejection of the Trinity matter? Does rejection of the true presence in the Eucharist matter? How about Jesus as true God and true man?

Anyone who has been on this forum for even a short time has certainly run across a variety of beliefs, all of which, for the most part, are stated by those who call themselves Christian. Does just claiming to believe in Christ suffice? What is the minimum required in order to hold the title “Christian”?

Biblically speaking, I think this is the most minimalist verse regarding the requirements of salvation…

Romans 10:9 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Legalistic types don’t like this verse because it’s very simple and it makes it hard to argue that the person isn’t saved. It’s very easy to confess verbally which is half the criteria, the other half is belief which involves the heart and which nobody can judge.

How can a legalist deny the person is confessing belief and how could they tell the person he doesn’t believe what he’s confessing? Or how could the legalistic type say that just those two criteria DON’T equal salvation when it says right IN the verse that you ARE saved IF you meet those two simple criteria?

One could say that the key words (confess and believe) would involve and include certain other things but the verse itself doesn’t say that. It’s straightforward, only mentions two requirements, being outward confession and inward belief, and it says very plainly that if you meet those two requirements, you’re saved.

Both Catholics and anti Catholics have argued with me about this verse. Catholics would tend to add things to it. Anti Catholics have told me that you also HAVE to NOT believe in Catholic dogma.

It would be interesting here if someone knew the opposite type of verse, in other words the verse which seems to require the absolute maximum for salvation. There are verses which speak of baptism, verses which speak of selling your property and giving to the poor. etc. Which verse requires the most in order to be saved?

 

[hn160]

That is very magnanimous of you, but what if the person went on to say that Jesus was not divine, was only a man, but still believed that He was the son of God and had come to save them. In charity, I don’t want to get real specific here but I think you know what I’m talking about. In other words, if a person had fallen into a belief already condemned by the Church as heresy, concerning the nature of God and our salvation, should we still pat them on the back and walk our lifetime journeys with them or should we try to correct them?

If the person said that Jesus was only a man and not divine, not only would Jesus be a poor savior but that person said that would not be a Christian.

 

[josephback]

that begs the question, which version of the Creed

I heard somewhere that the Filoque doesn’t really change the meaning, but was meant to be understood as “FROM the Father THROUGH the Son.” A few extra words, but the same idea. I’ve also heard that the Filoque is optional in the Eastern Catholic Churches. The West originally added the Filoque to fight Arianism in Spain.

These things are interesting

 

[PJM]

=SteveVH;7867950]***There are many who claim the title “Christian”. I am curious as to how far one can depart from the teachings of the original Church before you would consider them not Christian. *** Where do we draw the line? Does rejection of the Trinity matter? Does rejection of the true presence in the Eucharist matter? How about Jesus as true God and true man?

Anyone who has been on this forum for even a short time has certainly run across a variety of beliefs, all of which, for the most part, are stated by those who call themselves Christian. Does just claiming to believe in Christ suffice? What is the minimum required in order to hold the title “Christian”?

My dear friend in Christ,

If I sound sarcastic forgive me; but there are MANY, MANY, MANY THOUSANDS of “christian” denominations so one would think you’d be able to find one that meets your criteria?

BUT it seems to me [IMO] your asking the wrong question

Do you beleive that on any precise single issue that their can be ONLY One TRUTHFUL answer?

IF you do [it seems like SOLID LOGIC], then we have much to discuss. If Not, well

It’s a FACT God WILL judge you based on what HE GOD Knows is right; not what one likes, dislikes, or any persoanl preferences. One God =One standard of Judgement.

Good luck and may God Bless you,

Pat

 

[mark_a]

What has been hard to wrap my head around is if the Eucharist in a Protestant church can be considered in anyway valid, since Protestant ministers are not ordained by the Apostolic authority, and most do not accept Christ’s presence in the elements.