How firmly do you accept the tenets of the Catholic Church?

[Light1111]

Hello to all!

I have been a member of this forum for over a month, and have learned so much in such a short period of time. Thank you to all who have communicated with me and responded to my questions and concerns! I have enjoyed meeting all of you.

Spending time in this forum has caused me to reflect back on my experience in Catholic School, and attending mass, throughout my childhood. I am also thinking back on the many conversations I have had with Catholic family members and friends of the family.

One thing that strikes me about this forum, is the absolute fortitude of belief in the Catholic Church and its tenets, Teachings, edicts, etc. I compare and contrast this with my experience of Catholics in my own life, and I’ve found myself surprised. In the circles in which I’ve traveled, most of the Catholics I have known did not adhere to all of the tenets, but rather held quite a few as articles of faith in which they could not believe. This did not seem to bother them at all; they simply went their own way, on those matters.

For example, where I grew up, we had one family with 6 girls – their father was a deacon. The other Catholics used to say they were “strict Catholics” because they did not practice birth control (as evinced by their large family). The other families were small – 2 kids, 3 kids, etc. – and it was generally acknowledged and understood that in that town, people did indeed practice birth control, as they wished to limit the size of their family. These families were Catholic, and even sent their children to Catholic school, yet they found the birth control aspect untenable, so simply went their own way.

This is merely one example. What all this has led me to wonder, is whether the “typical U.S. Catholic” (if such a thing exists!) is more stringent and faithful to all teachings – as I have found here in this forum? Or if it is also common that people reject or ignore certain teachings, and yet adhere to others (as I witnessed throughout my life)?

The other thing that stands out in my mind, is that the Catholics I have known lacked religious/spiritual fervor. They seldom or never spoke of, referenced or called upon God (perhaps privately, but never publicly). I always held an impression that Catholicism was the most reserved of the sects of Christianity. But here in this forum, precisely what I found lacking in the Catholics I have known personally, I have found in the common member. I see devotion, passion and conviction, and I get the impression that members frequently invoke God or Jesus’ name in regular conversation (if their posts are representative of their attitude in life).

It’s occurred to me that perhaps only the most devout Catholics would frequent this forum, and perhaps that accounts for the discrepancy I describe here.

Do any of you have similar experiences, and understand my question? How common do you believe it is, to encounter Catholics who are quite devout, adhering to each teaching, as is often found in this forum?

Thanks to each of you, and peace!
Light1111

 

[challam2010]

In my opinion, the CAF community is far more conservative (traditionalist) than the “moderates” who make up the majority of practicing Catholics in the US.

I suspect members of this community may have more outward devotion to the Catholic faith and come here to share that commonality, although I have seen more instances of arguing over Catholic minutiae than the sharing of uplifting spiritual experiences or beliefs.

I personally find here a strong adherence to the legalism of the Church that was the model of the pre-VAtican II era. Except for the kindnesses shown and promises of prayers given to individuals who post their personal troubles, I don’t find outward expressions of Jesus’ commands to love our neighbor on the Forum. Neither do I find many discussions about the myriad ways we answer the call to serve our neighbor – not that it doesn’t happen, but it just isn’t talked about as much as what “good Catholics” should do, (excepting the pro-life issue and actions). There is so much emphasis placed on conversations centering around sin (especially sexual sins) and eternal punishment, and not a lot on ways to truly love one another.

On the other hand, I DO find tangible evidence of that love and service at the parish level, whether or not individual Catholics/Catholic families are following every law in their private lives. The state of any individual’s soul is between him/her and God, and it’s futile and judgmental to guess or assume how strongly he/she adheres to the many laws of the Church.

Many so-called “cafeteria Catholics” absolutely believe in the essential teachings of the Church and live faithful, devout lives, but reserve their obedience in EVERY matter through the application of their own informed, adult consciences and common sense as applied to their own lives.

I’m not even sure we can make generalizations about the devotion of any particular parish, State or region since so much depends on one’s diocese, Bishop, history of catechesis and even lifestyle (California vs Michigan, for example, with the Midwest and East probably being much more conservative generally than those of us on the West Coast).

Yours is an interesting question.

 

[po18guy]

Welcome! I believe that what you have observed is simply our human nature in action. Those who submit to human nature tend less toward adherence to Church teaching and practices. Those who deny the self and strive toward obedience to Christ’s Church work against their human nature. Our ego is an ever-present and driving force in our lives. It must be restrained, if not suppressed, in order to correctly orient our love toward others and not strictly toward ourselves. While, as beloved creations of God, we certainly must love ourselves, it must be in proportion, and we are to love God first and most profoundly; then others and then the self. This is a life-long challenge. Christ teaches those who want to follow Him, “deny yourself, take up your cross daily, then come, follow Me”. We must do two difficult things before we follow Him. It is in this denial of the self (a grace from God), that we focus more on others than on ourselves. It is this denial of self which is foundational to our obedience - our discipline. What helps me along is to remember that the word “disciple” derives from discipline. Once I begin to take Christ’s words at face value, I can endeavor toward the denial of self and the embracing of what Christ, through His Church, teaches and commands. I see the Church not as a stand alone entity - an external reality, but as the personification of Christ Himself - His Sacred Body on earth. I am an integral part of that Body, not a separated observer. And, as with the human body, if I am a hand, I must obey what the head (Christ) commands me to do. The greatest Saints are those who most forgot about themselves and most remembered the Kingdom of God and humble service to those around them.

This is a broad subject with as many correct responses as their are followers of Christ, but I am thankful that you were drawn here, that you seek the truth, and are asking questions. This in itself is a great blessing.

Peace be with you.

 

[andyandely1997]

There is so much emphasis placed on conversations centering around sin (especially sexual sins) and eternal punishment, and not a lot on ways to truly love one another.

Why is there such a focus on sin? Because everything is subjective these days, even with most Catholics. We are called to admonish the sinner. But now days, we will be considered intolerant, if we defend the truth of Christ. Turning a blind eye to sin does not help anyone, and it is false compassion which will not help anyone to heaven.

Many so-called “cafeteria Catholics” absolutely believe in the essential teachings of the Church and live faithful, devout lives, but reserve their obedience in EVERY matter through the application of their own informed, adult consciences and common sense as applied to their own lives.

We are called to follow all teachings of the Church, not just the essential ones. When a person has Christ first in their life, obedience comes out of love. They do not look at it as following a rule or law.

Before coming into the Catholic Church, most Catholics I came across lived no differently than myself. And sad to say, most Catholics I come across these days, are lukewarm Catholics. They believe Confirmation was their graduation, and no other personal growth in their faith is required from them. People will not be attracted to the Church by a warm & fuzzy feeling, but by Catholics truly living their faith on a daily basis. As for myself, I thank God for EWTN, which drew me home.

 

[andyandely1997]

Welcome! I believe that what you have observed is simply our human nature in action. Those who submit to human nature tend less toward adherence to Church teaching and practices. Those who deny the self and strive toward obedience to Christ’s Church work against their human nature. Our ego is an ever-present and driving force in our lives. It must be restrained, if not suppressed, in order to correctly orient our love toward others and not strictly toward ourselves. While, as beloved creations of God, we certainly must love ourselves, it must be in proportion, and we are to love God first and most profoundly; then others and then the self. This is a life-long challenge. Christ teaches those who want to follow Him, “deny yourself, take up your cross daily, then come, follow Me”. We must do two difficult things before we follow Him. It is in this denial of the self (a grace from God), that we focus more on others than on ourselves. It is this denial of self which is foundational to our obedience - our discipline. What helps me along is to remember that the word “disciple” derives from discipline. Once I begin to take Christ’s words at face value, I can endeavor toward the denial of self and the embracing of what Christ, through His Church, teaches and commands. I see the Church not as a stand alone entity - an external reality, but as the personification of Christ Himself - His Sacred Body on earth. I am an integral part of that Body, not a separated observer. And, as with the human body, if I am a hand, I must obey what the head (Christ) commands me to do. The greatest Saints are those who most forgot about themselves and most remembered the Kingdom of God and humble service to those around them.

This is a broad subject with as many correct responses as their are followers of Christ, but I am thankful that you were drawn here, that you seek the truth, and are asking questions. This in itself is a great blessing.

Peace be with you.

This is a very good response. It is not just me & Christ, or me & the Church. Our personal sin affects more people than just ourself, or even just our close family and friends. As the above post states, it affects the body of Christ.

 

[antroji]

Light1111, I find myself mostly in agreement with this from Challam2010:

I suspect members of this community may have more outward devotion to the Catholic faith and come here to share that commonality, although I have seen more instances of arguing over Catholic minutiae than the sharing of uplifting spiritual experiences or beliefs.

I personally find here a strong adherence to the legalism of the Church that was the model of the pre-VAtican II era. Except for the kindnesses shown and promises of prayers given to individuals who post their personal troubles, I don’t find outward expressions of Jesus’ commands to love our neighbor on the Forum. Neither do I find many discussions about the myriad ways we answer the call to serve our neighbor – not that it doesn’t happen, but it just isn’t talked about as much as what “good Catholics” should do, (excepting the pro-life issue and actions). There is so much emphasis placed on conversations centering around sin (especially sexual sins) and eternal punishment, and not a lot on ways to truly love one another.

On the other hand, I DO find tangible evidence of that love and service at the parish level, whether or not individual Catholics/Catholic families are following every law in their private lives. The state of any individual’s soul is between him/her and God, and it’s futile and judgmental to guess or assume how strongly he/she adheres to the many laws of the Church.

My own challenges as to the alleged universality of what the Church teaches as truth comes from mystical experiences that make me lean strongly in the direction of what is called non dualism. I hesitate to elaborate on that, save that by what I have experienced, the Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t have it quite right.

Having said that, I have no doubt about either the sincerity of the average Catholic, nor do I believe that someone practicing our faith or any other ought do other than continue in their way, excepting useful dialogue. I do believe and have witnessed that there are stages in the maturity of our awareness, both in general and in the specifically spiritual. And my observation is that the more elevated are the perceptions of an individual, so are their convictions acted out as what can only be called Love. And sometimes that Love does not look to a more legalistic mind to be in conformance with teaching. And I have often read that we are usually more concerned with feeling right than in thinking critically, especially about our own thinking, religious or otherwise, whatever our background.

But any sort of maturity comes in its own time. I am quite convinced that with experience and integrity, many will go beyond the forms of our Church or any other to something more fundamental, as indicated by certain experiences and studies.

 

[Light1111]

Thanks to each of you for your responses! They’ve given me quite a bit to think about. It’s very interesting to me to hear how each of you personally view your faith, your commitment to the Church, and its role in your life. I especially liked the idea of not being a member of the Church, but instead saying that the Church is a part of you, that it represents the living body of Christ and that you have internalized it.

Indeed, I’m sure it is the case that the Catholics I have experience with, outside of this forum, may not be fervent enough followers to frequent a forum such as this. Perhaps if more of those “Cafeteria Catholics” (please forgive the pejorative) did visit this forum, we’d have a more well-rounded view of what constitutes the thoughts, feelings and belief of the “General Catholic.”

The part of my post where I mentioned the lack of religious/spiritual fervor in the Catholics I have known really represents the heart of my question much better than my example about the refusal to follow the birth control law. I remember my subjective experience, seated in Church, as a small child, looking around at the other parishioners and trying to gauge their internal experience. I saw nothing but blank expressions, devoid of emotion, and no one seemed to be paying attention to the mass. I sometimes wondered if “the adults” found services as boring as I did! (Remember, I was a young child.) It used to occur to me that perhaps these people attend mass to prevent the sense of guilt that would come from missing services.

I contrast the behavior of those parishioners with what I’ve seen when I watch Baptist services on TV (as one example), where people are swaying, singing, shouting, and very frequently moved to tears. Sometimes it seems the entire congregation is sobbing! That sort of religious/spiritual zeal always seemed to be lacking in my experience in Church, as a child. It may well have to do with the overall attitudes, mores and social norms of the town in which I grew up. In general, people were not prone to outward displays of emotion!

I’ve been told that in South America, Catholic services do stir up emotions in parishioners quite like Baptist services do. South Americans are known for being rather devout Catholics.

It’s interesting to me to think about and consider these ideas. It does appear that some followers are quite devout, loyal, faithful, and consider themselves to be God’s servants, yet remain “aloof and reserved,” for lack of a better term. Perhaps there is something about the tone of the mass itself (the monotone singing, for an example) that gave me this impression; perhaps people’s private experience is one of ecstatic communion with God, and they allow themselves to experience this internally, rather than express it externally.

As for the comments regarding sin vs. charitable behavior or good works, I tend to agree with that. Sometimes I feel so sad for people, reading posts where they worry if they have sinned in various circumstances. I know that such questions derive from sincere intent, and that is beautiful. It would be nice, though, if there was a greater faith that while we can never be absolutely perfect, pure intent goes a long way, and if one strives to be kind to others, that means a great deal to God.

I really appreciate your responses so much! Thank you and peace to each one of you!
Light1111

 

[brianwalden]

I suspect members of this community may have more outward devotion to the Catholic faith and come here to share that commonality, although I have seen more instances of arguing over Catholic minutiae than the sharing of uplifting spiritual experiences or beliefs.

Challam, I think the reason you see this is because Catholic Answers, the host of these forums, is an apostolate dedicated to apologetics. That’s why so much of the conversations are about details of the faith. To tie back in with the OP, sadly most Catholics in the US dissent from Church teaching on some issues. Generally, the very fact that someone enjoys discussing doctrinal questions on these forums means that they take their faith seriously - therefore Catholics here tend to be more orthodox than the general population.

 

[po18guy]

Perhaps if more of those “Cafeteria Catholics” (please forgive the pejorative) did visit this forum, we’d have a more well-rounded view of what constitutes the thoughts, feelings and belief of the “General Catholic.”

Jesus taught the 72 to “eat whatever is placed before you”, and this applies to His Eucharistic Body and Blood, as well as to the teaching of His Church.

I remember my subjective experience, seated in Church, as a small child, looking around at the other parishioners and trying to gauge their internal experience. I saw nothing but blank expressions, devoid of emotion, and no one seemed to be paying attention to the mass. I sometimes wondered if “the adults” found services as boring as I did!

The experience intensifies as you surrender the self to the Body. The bored are concerned with a boring subject - the smallness of their private concerns and desires. Mass is akin to a winning poker hand: the more you put into it, the more you receive.

I contrast the behavior of those parishioners with what I’ve seen when I watch Baptist services on TV (as one example), where people are swaying, singing, shouting, and very frequently moved to tears. Sometimes it seems the entire congregation is sobbing! That sort of religious/spiritual zeal always seemed to be lacking in my experience in Church, as a child. It may well have to do with the overall attitudes, mores and social norms of the town in which I grew up. In general, people were not prone to outward displays of emotion! I’ve been told that in South America, Catholic services do stir up emotions in parishioners quite like Baptist services do. South Americans are known for being rather devout Catholics.

Frankly, bible church services strike me as talk talk talk, since they are not focused on experiencing Calvary in their midst. They are service instead of sacrifice. They do not call down the entire host of heaven when their sacrifice is joined to that of Good Friday. There is no epiclesis. So, music, dancing and clapping fill in, but ultimately fail to satisfy many. As well, there is an American cultural stoicism that self-limits the external aspects of worship. It may derive from the European influence that prevails in the American Church, but is not as evident in other parts of the world.

 

[Light1111]

Jesus taught the 72 to “eat whatever is placed before you”, and this applies to His Eucharistic Body and Blood, as well as to the teaching of His Church.

The experience intensifies as you surrender the self to the Body. The bored are concerned with a boring subject - the smallness of their private concerns and desires. Mass is akin to a winning poker hand: the more you put into it, the more you receive.

Frankly, bible church services strike me as talk talk talk, since they are not focused on experiencing Calvary in their midst. They are service instead of sacrifice. They do not call down the entire host of heaven when their sacrifice is joined to that of Good Friday. There is no epiclesis. So, music, dancing and clapping fill in, but ultimately fail to satisfy many. As well, there is an American cultural stoicism that self-limits the external aspects of worship. It may derive from the European influence that prevails in the American Church, but is not as evident in other parts of the world.

I don’t know, perhaps you have a point about the “talk talk talk” – I wouldn’t know. I’m not familiar with the specific beliefs. However, the emotional outpouring of love and gratitude for Jesus Christ is ardent and sincere, in my opinion, from what I’ve witnessed. They may walk a different path, but sincere intent is, at the end of the day, what God sees.

 

[kozlosap]

On the other hand, I DO find tangible evidence of that love and service at the parish level, whether or not individual Catholics/Catholic families are following every law in their private lives. The state of any individual’s soul is between him/her and God, and it’s futile and judgmental to guess or assume how strongly he/she adheres to the many laws of the Church.

**Many so-called “cafeteria Catholics” absolutely believe in the essential teachings of the Church and live faithful, devout lives, but reserve their obedience in EVERY matter through the application of their own informed, adult consciences and common sense as applied to their own lives. **

:thumbsup:What an awesome answer! I do believe that one has to look at the United States, Western Europe and Austrailia and Canada differently in relation to the Faith than third world countries. General life experience and especially education play a huge role in how one lives their life.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t know, perhaps you have a point about the “talk talk talk” – I wouldn’t know. I’m not familiar with the specific beliefs. However, the emotional outpouring of love and gratitude for Jesus Christ is ardent and sincere, in my opinion, from what I’ve witnessed. They may walk a different path, but sincere intent is, at the end of the day, what God sees.

I refer to the nature of their “services”, not to the fervency or sincerity of their beliefs. But, in some cases, there is no altar, no sacrifice and even no baptismal font, as all of that has been case aside. They have literally thrown the baby (Eucharist) out with the bath water (Baptism).

 

[challam2010]

I refer to the nature of their “services”, not to the fervency or sincerity of their beliefs. But, in some cases, there is no altar, no sacrifice and even no baptismal font, as all of that has been case aside. They have literally thrown the baby (Eucharist) out with the bath water (Baptism).

I’ve accompanied my son’s family to their Bible-based, non-denominational Christian church on several occasions and, while I appreciated the Scripture readings and the (excellent) comments and teaching from the pastor, as well as the professional and inspirational music from that ministry – I’ve been amazed that the only real prayer has been one group recitation of the Lord’s Prayer and then one-on-one prayers after dismissal, with members of a prayer ministry, for personal intentions.

Even at the occasional services where they share bread and wine there is little actual prayer. It feels very much like something very important has been left out, which it has, even though the rest of the service was very communal.

 

[Brett1980]

Hello Light1111,

The reason I came to this forum was to expand my knowledge of Christianity.

The core reasons why I accept the tenets of the Catholic Church as opposed to someone who calls themselves Catholic yet would confirm their moral framework to this small segment of history in which we currently live, is because I believe the Bible, the Pope, the Magisterium and the Holy spirit are the sources of truth available to me about faith and morals.

This attitude didn’t come immediately, it took about 5 years of picking, choosing and remaining in sin before I accepted this.