How Free is our Free-Will?

[jkiernan56]

Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?

 

[06convert]

We are free to do whatever we want. Our actions or inactions result in consequences that we must respond to with more actions or inactions. It’s a never ending cycle. Without action there wouldn’t be inaction, without inaction there wouldn’t be action.

 

[jkiernan56]

We are free to do whatever we want. Our actions or inactions result in consequences that we must respond to with more actions or inactions. It’s a never ending cycle. Without action there wouldn’t be inaction, without inaction there wouldn’t be action.

True, but are you completely free in the actions that you choose? Or are the actions that you choose due to earlier cause-effect influences? I’m not so sure yet I can agree with the statement that because of our free will that we are completely free. I am trying to understand this more myself and considering the words of St. Paul:

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. … For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. " Romans 7

 

[jkiernan56]

This thread of whether or not our free will is completely free in the choices we make also brings to mind another question -

Are there degrees of freedom? Is it a continuum between 2 extremes - totally slavery to complete freedom? Are some people more “free” than others?

 

[06convert]

Well. What is free will to you? Philosophically you’re talking about something that has been debated since the beginning of Philosophy itself. Are you talking about the ability to choose freely, or to choose without outside influence? Choosing without influence is more like instinct, rather than choice. Even then you can train yourself to not respond to instinct.

To me, it means that God doesn’t assert His power over my individual choices. The choices I make are generated from a combination of my knowledge, conscience, selfishness, and situation. I’m free to use any combination of resources at my disposal to generate my choice.

My free will can be influenced by a number of factors. I can decide my action by ignoring those factors, or embracing them.

 

[SMHW]

I’m not expert in philosophy or theology so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that there is a subtle difference between the will of an individual and the property of Free Will.

Free Will is a property we possess which allows us to chose between two good things or even between good and evil. It’s a reason why we can say we are made in the image of God.

But each individual possesses a will which is part of our human nature and as such subject to the corruption of original sin. As a result we are likely to exercise our God-given gift of Free Will imperfectly.

 

[jkiernan56]

I’m not expert in philosophy or theology so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that there is a subtle difference between the will of an individual and the property of Free Will.

Free Will is a property we possess which allows us to chose between two good things or even between good and evil. It’s a reason why we can say we are made in the image of God.

But each individual possesses a will which is part of our human nature and as such subject to the corruption of original sin. As a result we are likely to exercise our God-given gift of Free Will imperfectly.

Yes, its called Concupisence. Being free and having free will are not the same thing. The more we choose God’s will, the more free we become.

St. Paul says while we may desire to do what is Good, we do not always have the power to carry it out.

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. … For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. " Romans 7

 

[PJM]

Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?

Our Freewill is a created gift from God.

The real question to ask is why? Why do God, His angels and humanity have freewills and none of His other Creatures?

The answer lies in the fact that we are made in the image and likeness of God Himself.

Why and how are we made in God’s image?

We are made in God’s image insofar as God places within us the instant we are born, our Souls, which, like God, are Spirit.It is our Souls that animate, actually give life to our being.

We are given this gift, for the very purpose of proving to God that we Love Him and thank Him.

Are we able to fulfill these desires of God by virtue of our Souls Alone?

No, we are not!

So how then do we accomplish these goals that God has made expectations?

God, who all Wise and All Knowing, also blesses us with “an intellect,” and it is through both our God given Intellect, and our God given freewiil, that we are able to (freely) complete the task for which God created us.

Does God force us to do this?

No, it would be againt God’s very Nature to force us to do anything. That is why, we term it “freewill.” God will through Grace, and associations (the people, places and things God places in our lives), lead us to this end, but we are always free to say NO!

Are tomorrows actions influenced by today’s actions?

They can be for better or for worse if we allow them too. God alway’s provides sufficient Grace for our personal Salvation. But we don’t have to accept them, nor do we always apply them correctly and or fully.

That is why a strong prayer life, a heathy Sacramanrtal life, and a life of good works are key to the formation of our intellect, which is the motor and steering wheel for our freewill

 

[crowonsnow]

I’m not expert in philosophy or theology so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that there is a subtle difference between the will of an individual and the property of Free Will.

Free Will is a property we possess which allows us to chose between two good things or even between good and evil. It’s a reason why we can say we are made in the image of God.

But each individual possesses a will which is part of our human nature and as such subject to the corruption of original sin. As a result we are likely to exercise our God-given gift of Free Will imperfectly.

You are saying we have imperfect free will and not free will. So what exactly is this “free will” that we no longer have? And how does it differ from imperfect free will? Please provide some examples.

 

[taylor007]

Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?

i am only 19 and a brand new member,so pardon if this looks childish. god is all knowing and all
wise,isnt he ?so that would mean whatever actions we are going
to make in the future or whatever choices we are abt to take is already known to god.that means
all our choices are already decided and we are only playing out a script thats already written.so
how free is our free will actually???

 

[jkiernan56]

i am only 19 and a brand new member,so pardon if this looks childish. god is all knowing and all
wise,isnt he ?so that would mean whatever actions we are going
to make in the future or whatever choices we are abt to take is already known to god.that means
all our choices are already decided and we are only playing out a script thats already written.so
how free is our free will actually???

You bring up a very good idea that has been repeatedly discussed on Catholic Answers … about how if God knows everything that we are going to do … that our choices are already decided … and therefore we are not really free …

That is a false understanding of reality … there is no direct cause-effect relationship between Gods KNOWING and God CAUSING. What God’s KNOWS does not CAUSE. What God knows you and I will do tomorrow … does not mean that His knowledge is causing what He knows … God knows what YOU and I will do … and it is NOT God who is doing it … YOU and I are doing it … and He KNOWS already the choices that we will make … I hope that helps…

 

[crowonsnow]

You bring up a very good idea that has been repeatedly discussed on Catholic Answers … about how if God knows everything that we are going to do … that our choices are already decided … and therefore we are not really free …

That is a false understanding of reality … there is no direct cause-effect relationship between Gods KNOWING and God CAUSING. What God’s KNOWS does not CAUSE. What God knows you and I will do tomorrow … does not mean that His knowledge is causing what He knows … God knows what YOU and I will do … and it is NOT God who is doing it … YOU and I are doing it … and He KNOWS already the choices that we will make … I hope that helps…

It sounds like perfect free will, the kind the god has and the kind we supposedly had before the apple and Eve, is just freedom from responsibility and accountability, a kind of blissful childish ignorance.

 

[jkiernan56]

It sounds like perfect free will, the kind the god has and the kind we supposedly had before the apple and Eve, is just freedom from responsibility and accountability, a kind of blissful childish ignorance.

I do not believe we have perfect free will yet. That day will come when we are in heaven and our wills are completely free to always want and choose the good.

But in the real world here and now, we have the ability to make choices and say yes to this … and no to that … our will becomes more and more free as we choose God’s will … we become more able to want and choose the good … grace upon grace … one who receives grace is better able to be open to receiving more grace …

 

[PJM]

i am only 19 and a brand new member,so pardon if this looks childish. god is all knowing and all
wise,isnt he ?so that would mean whatever actions we are going
to make in the future or whatever choices we are abt to take is already known to god.that means
all our choices are already decided and we are only playing out a script thats already written.so
how free is our free will actually???

My dear friend in Christ Jesus, welcome!

You ask a very profound and thoughtful Question:tiphat: I wish I had been able to do that at 19 years of age.

The answer lies in what your saying as being factual, without it being the complete truth.

Let’s say your on a tall building and your looking over the edge. You see a speeding car about to turn right. and a semi about to make a left at the same time, on the same corner. Neither can see the other approaching. You know that their is going to be a serious accident before it happens, but did you cause it to happen, or for that matter, did you even allow it to happen? No and No!

Knowledge of, is as far as the East is from the West as it effects “cause.” So it is with God, you are quite correct, in that God who is all “everything Good” knows what is going to happen. That in no way implies that God caused it to happen.

God who personifies The Perfection of Goodness, cannot, as it would violate God’s Divine nature, do anything bad, or evil.

God can and does tolerate (permits) bad and evil for two reasons:

1. For our possible sanctifcation. We can always say NO to God.
2. For God’s Glorification.

I noticed that you spelled God with a small “g” which tells me your not a believer. Would you mind sharring with us your understanding of what and who God is?

For the record. Catholics understand that that Heaven and Hell are Real, as shown by the Bible, and that it not God, NO it is us… you and me who decide where we will spend eternitiy:thumbsup:

 

[crowonsnow]

I do not believe we have perfect free will yet. That day will come when we are in heaven and our wills are completely free to always want and choose the good.

But in the real world here and now, we have the ability to make choices and say yes to this … and no to that … our will becomes more and more free as we choose God’s will … we become more able to want and choose the good … grace upon grace … one who receives grace is better able to be open to receiving more grace …

So does perfect free will leave any room whatsoever for disagreement?

 

[jkiernan56]

So does perfect free will leave any room whatsoever for disagreement?

Depends on what your disagreement is about … I don’t take anything personally … so I don’t mind if you want to share any objections you have

 

[PJM]

Depends on what your disagreement is about … I don’t take anything personally … so I don’t mind if you want to share any objections you have

Disagreement is so to speak “the natural birth child” of our freewill.

Because “we can, is never moral justification for actually doing an act. If the act is bad, evil or immoral, even though “we can”… We can’t!”

One cannot exercise freewill without also and at the same time exercising ones iintellect. It is an incredibily complex set of “checks and balances.” God’s Creation so it has to be Good.

We can disagree with the Commandments and The Church, and The Pope, but not without serious consequences.

 

[jkiernan56]

Disagreement is so to speak “the natural birth child” of our freewill.

Because “we can, is never moral justification for actually doing an act. If the act is bad, evil or immoral, even though “we can”… We can’t!”

One cannot exercise freewill without also and at the same time exercising ones iintellect. It is an incredibily complex set of “checks and balances.” God’s Creation so it has to be Good.

We can disagree with the Commandments and The Church, and The Pope, but not without serious consequences.

I agree with you … thats why when I am driving a car down the highway … you won’t find me in the lane heading towards on coming traffic … that is unless I forget what country I am in … and accidently drive on the wrong side. I also don’t disagree with the common sense that says I should open a door before I try to pass through it … I can tell myslf all i want that I can walk through objects … but the bloody nose then awakes me to reality

 

[crowonsnow]

Depends on what your disagreement is about … I don’t take anything personally … so I don’t mind if you want to share any objections you have

I’m just enjoying the exchanges and attempting to understand the free will argument without assuming it first, which is what most everyone else appears to be doing.

I’ve set free will aside for the moment and am attempting to understand what perfect free will is, if it is anything. So far the responses have been lacking. Everyone uses free will and then talks about limited free will, the free will agent, imperfect free will and perfect free will without ever defining any of these things. There must be some assumed axiomatic hierarchy underlying all these exchanges that escapes my pragmatic intellect.

It appears that perfect free will is the abdication of responsibility and accountability for one’s actions. I say this because the god apparently has perfect free will and is responsible and accountable to no one and no thing for its actions and its choices. Is that a reasonable observation?

So I don’t see how any human can ever possess perfect free will, try as we might, because humans will always be responsible and accountable for their actions. Even when the angels were in heaven they were apparently still accountable for their actions and got tossed for same. So to say humans will have perfect free will in heaven doesn’t wash. Apparently there is still imperfect free will in heaven owing to what happened to god’s angelic servants.

The free will discussion appears to be just a variation of angels-on-pinheads. Unless humans become the same as the god they will never have perfect free will. Perfect free will is impossible where the condition exists that a given expectation may not be realized.

 

[jkiernan56]

I’m just enjoying the exchanges and attempting to understand the free will argument without assuming it first, which is what most everyone else appears to be doing.

It appears that perfect free will is the abdication of responsibility and accountability for one’s actions. I say this because the god apparently has perfect free will and is responsible and accountable to no one and no thing for its actions and its choices. Is that a reasonable observation?

So I don’t see how any human can ever possess perfect free will, try as we might, because humans will always be responsible and accountable for their actions. Even when the angels were in heaven they were apparently still accountable for their actions and got tossed for same. So to say humans will have perfect free will in heaven doesn’t wash. Apparently there is still imperfect free will in heaven owing to what happened to god’s angelic servants.

Welcome to the discussion. Your premise and logic are not accurate. First your premise - God has perfect free will and not accountable to anyone. Who would you like God to be accountable to? I do not buy the premise that absolute freedom and being totally free to exercise one’s will is the ability to do “anything I want” mentality. Freedom is the ability to aways choose the Good. When you are given a choice between 2 goods … lets say A and B … and for the sake of discussion … A is using your time in a worthwhile manner … such as reading, prayer … something that is edifying for your soul … and then have the option to spend that time surfing the internet for porn … you are faced with a choice … do i spend my time doing something that is really good for me … or something that will be harmful … now lets suppose you KNOW that spending your time doing A is better than spending your time doing B … but you choose to do B anyway … I would say that the choice to do B is an indication that the person was not completely free … because to be completely free is to have the ability to always choose what is good … I hope that explanation helps …

If you understand the nature of God and what absolute freedom is, then you will find that your putting A with B do not go together.