How Free is our Free-Will?

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The 9/11 hijackers personally experienced the Holiness of God, and experienced his Grace, nothing you could do could change reality for them in the slightest, they experienced real love, you know what it is, god’s hand guided them to crash those planes into those buildings. Do you have any clue about their REAL and TRUE experiences?

Do you deny them their real experience and communication with God? Or only yours is true?
well … i can say i’m superman … but reality is reality … and I can definitely say those men who flew the planes into the buildings knew nothing of the Holiness of God … i do know what self-deception is and illusion … as CS Lewis so brilliantly stated … people like that are looking at God through dirty lenses …
 
The 9/11 hijackers personally experienced the Holiness of God, and experienced his Grace, nothing you could do could change reality for them in the slightest, they experienced real love, you know what it is, god’s hand guided them to crash those planes into those buildings. Do you have any clue about their REAL and TRUE experiences?

Do you deny them their real experience and communication with God? Or only yours is true?
Anyone who’s experienced the holiness of God could never justify killing in His name-which also happens to be the position of the CC.
 
Anyone who’s experienced the holiness of God could never justify killing in His name-which also happens to be the position of the CC.
Okay, so you do deny their true and real experience with god yet claim yours is real and true. How do you devalue their expereince over yours?
 
well … i can say i’m superman … but reality is reality … and I can definitely say those men who flew the planes into the buildings knew nothing of the Holiness of God … i do know what self-deception is and illusion … as CS Lewis so brilliantly stated … people like that are looking at God through dirty lenses …
Ah, so your experiences are true and right but theirs are not, right?
 
Okay, so you do deny their true and real experience with god yet claim yours is real and true. How do you devalue their expereince over yours?
I have no idea what theirs’ is-I can only believe they’re obeying the strictures of their faith and believing in what they’ve been told rather than receiving a direct experience of the nature of God. And my experience jives with others who’ve been brash enough to claim to have been on the receiving end of such an epiphany and jives as well with the Church teaching that God is love. God is for humans, among other things, ultimately an experience, like any other real experience in that one sense.
 
I have no idea what theirs’ is-I can only believe they’re obeying the strictures of their faith and believing in what they’ve been told rather than receiving a direct experience of the nature of God. And my experience jives with others who’ve been brash enough to claim to have been on the receiving end of such an epiphany and jives as well with the Church teaching that God is love. God is for humans, among other things, ultimately an experience, like any other real experience in that one sense.
And I can only believe you’re obeying the strictures of your faith and believing in what you’ve been told rather than receiving a direct experience of the nature of God.

your claim is no different then theirs. You both claim to have real and true experiences with god. You deny theirs is true, yet claim yours to be. And they do the same. You both would find this curious if you weren’t so convinced in your own beliefs.
 
And I can only believe you’re obeying the strictures of your faith and believing in what you’ve been told rather than receiving a direct experience of the nature of God.

your claim is no different then theirs. You both claim to have real and true experiences with god. You deny theirs is true, yet claim yours to be. And they do the same. You both would find this curious if you weren’t so convinced in your own beliefs.
I honestly don’t know. I’ve never heard of Muslim mystical experiences, let alone how they may depict God. What I know is that mine happen to confirm Catholic teaching. I have a hard time arguing with the “God is love” thing with/without personal revelations anyway and tend to trust that this kind of view would have an extremely difficult time producing suicide bombers.
 
Oops, forgot to add that was Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Does it matter what holiness is to me? Can I even have an opinion on it and act on that opinion? Mustn’t I just accept and act on the authority of the church and what it says holiness is?
Yes it does matter what the Holiness of God means. In fact, I would say it is critical and essential to your spiritual life … growth as a person
 
I honestly don’t know. I’ve never heard of Muslim mystical experiences, let alone how they may depict God. What I know is that mine happen to confirm Catholic teaching. I have a hard time arguing with the “God is love” thing with/without personal revelations anyway and tend to trust that this kind of view would have an extremely difficult time producing suicide bombers.
And they feel their personal revelations confirm their teachings. Confirmation bias on both sides at its best. The point is, this is a bare assertion fallacy, you are saying your agrument is true simply because you say it is true, because your experiences are true. Anyone can say that, but it doesn’t prove anything nor support any arguments.
 
Yes it does matter what the Holiness of God means. In fact, I would say it is critical and essential to your spiritual life … growth as a person
I didn’t ask, “does it matter what the Holiness of God means,” I asked, “does it matter what the Holiness of God means to me” rather then simply succumbing to the authority of the church and what it says is holiness. Can I have a different idea of holiness then the church? Haven’t they been claimed in this very thread to be the ultimate authority on such issues?
 
I didn’t ask, “does it matter what the Holiness of God means,” I asked, “does it matter what the Holiness of God means to me” rather then simply succumbing to the authority of the church and what it says is holiness. Can I have a different idea of holiness then the church? Haven’t they been claimed in this very thread to be the ultimate authority on such issues?
And I would reiterate … that what the Holiness of God “means to you” is EXTREMELY important.
 
And they feel their personal revelations confirm their teachings. Confirmation bias on both sides at its best. The point is, this is a bare assertion fallacy, you are saying your agrument is true simply because you say it is true, because your experiences are true. Anyone can say that, but it doesn’t prove anything nor support any arguments.
I can’t expect anyone to necessarily believe* me*-I can only attest to what I’ve been shown myself. That it happens to agree with Catholic teachings is better yet. Like St Augustine said about his writings on the faith:

**The words printed here are concepts. You must go through the experiences. **

I can’t help it that the Catholic faith happens to be true and that’s this has been proven to me in various ways over time and continues to be. And if one day something proves it to be otherwise I’ll drop it immediately. But her teachings on the faith along with the testimony of others throughout the years which serve to confirm it along with the good shes’ done in the world if one’s willing to look seriously at history draw me closer to her all the time. I don’t care who’s got the truth but I’m definitely interested* in *the truth.

The experience of being in Gods presence can be likened to visiting a foreign city. When you come back people who haven’t been there may tell you all kinds of things about the city and may even tell you the city doesn’t exist but you object, saying, “yes, but I’ve been there” and if they describe the city and it doesn’t fit with what you’ve seen then you can only conclude they haven’t really been there after all. I can’t speak for other believers.
 
Perfect. So I can conclude that the church isn’t the authority on these matters.
actually … She is … and the proof of the pudding is in the lives of the saints 🙂

I actually think the Beatles also had it right … “all you need is love” … which for me I know to be true in the Person of Christ … have you met Him yet?
 
I’d just like to post a quote from St. Augustine’s book The City of God regarding free will:

“. . . when we say we must choose freely when we choose at all, what we say is true; yet, we do not subject free choice to any necessity (in an above paragraph, Augustine defines a necessity as in the case with the necessity to die) which destroys our liberty. Our choices, therefore are our own, and they effect, whenever we choose to act, something that would not happen if we had not chosen. Even when a person suffers against his will from the will of others, there is a voluntary act–not, indeed, of the person who suffers. However, a human will prevails–although the power which permits this is God’s. . . It does not follow, therefore, that there is no power in our will because God foreknew what was to be the choice in our will. . .Furthermore, if He who foresaw what was to be in our will, foresaw, not nothing, but something, it follows that there is a power in our will, even though He foresaw it.”

“The conclusion is that we are by no means under some compulsion to abandon free choice in favor of divine foreknowledgge, nor need we deny–God forbid!–that God knows the future as a condition for holding free choice. We accept both. . .”

This problem of determining if our will is free or if God is orchestrating every act of everyone in existence for all times leads to another difficulty, and that is the fact of suffering and death in this world. Because, since our will is free, we can and often do cause harm to others, while natural disasters and illnesses are readily apparent. Are these caused by God? He allows these evils which are the result of original sin. In other words, our God is bending to man’s will, yet it is within His own will to do so. That’s certainly a conundrum.

I’m of the opinion that God set in motion the Natural Law (both laws of physics and morals) and gives human beings the freedom with which to live their lives as they choose (even though our choices are partially determined by nature and environment). However, the given is the Moral Law. Whether we choose to obey it (Ten Commandments which can be summed up in the Two Greatest Commandments) is of our own volition. Every choice, God allows and knew from all Eternity. It is said that God makes straight the crooked lines. As mentioned in posts above, He makes good come of evil. The more we choose to do good, the more we resemble God Himself.

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)
 
It is best just to acknoledge these contradictions and keep a fair and honest level of skepticism about the bible.
What do you mean by ‘skepticism about the Bible’? That the truthfulness of Scripture is doubtful, or that it is impossible for us to fully understand?
 
I’d just like to post a quote from St. Augustine’s book The City of God regarding free will:

“. . . when we say we must choose freely when we choose at all, what we say is true; yet, we do not subject free choice to any necessity (in an above paragraph, Augustine defines a necessity as in the case with the necessity to die) which destroys our liberty. Our choices, therefore are our own, and they effect, whenever we choose to act, something that would not happen if we had not chosen. Even when a person suffers against his will from the will of others, there is a voluntary act–not, indeed, of the person who suffers. However, a human will prevails–although the power which permits this is God’s. . . It does not follow, therefore, that there is no power in our will because God foreknew what was to be the choice in our will. . .Furthermore, if He who foresaw what was to be in our will, foresaw, not nothing, but something, it follows that there is a power in our will, even though He foresaw it.”

“The conclusion is that we are by no means under some compulsion to abandon free choice in favor of divine foreknowledgge, nor need we deny–God forbid!–that God knows the future as a condition for holding free choice. We accept both. . .”

This problem of determining if our will is free or if God is orchestrating every act of everyone in existence for all times leads to another difficulty, and that is the fact of suffering and death in this world. Because, since our will is free, we can and often do cause harm to others, while natural disasters and illnesses are readily apparent. Are these caused by God? He allows these evils which are the result of original sin. In other words, our God is bending to man’s will, yet it is within His own will to do so. That’s certainly a conundrum.

I’m of the opinion that God set in motion the Natural Law (both laws of physics and morals) and gives human beings the freedom with which to live their lives as they choose (even though our choices are partially determined by nature and environment). However, the given is the Moral Law. Whether we choose to obey it (Ten Commandments which can be summed up in the Two Greatest Commandments) is of our own volition. Every choice, God allows and knew from all Eternity. It is said that God makes straight the crooked lines. As mentioned in posts above, He makes good come of evil. The more we choose to do good, the more we resemble God Himself.

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)
Wow!!! That is so AWESOME!!! These words of a St. Augustine are so incredibly wise - thank you for sharing them with us. Need anything more be said on this subject? I humbly bend in respect to St. Augustine words … he says it all right here.
 
Wow!!! That is so AWESOME!!! These words of a St. Augustine are so incredibly wise - thank you for sharing them with us. Need anything more be said on this subject? I humbly bend in respect to St. Augustine words … he says it all right here.
Agreed!

Those who don’t believe consider events fate or destiny.
Those who believe consider events God’s Will.

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)
 
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