How Free is our Free-Will?

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Exactly. That is what I am pointing out. There are contradictions. The bible says on one hand that god determines our steps, and that he has already determined our salvation, and on the other hand it acts as though we have free-will. It is contradictory.
**The options for us are essentially the same as for Adam & Eve-to choose right over wrong- which means to choose obedience over disobedience. And this can begin to happen only as one comes to believe that there exists an authority superior to himself worthy of obedience. And this authority we believe to be God, expressing His will through the Church, which we believe has been given authority to proclaim His message. This is why the Church, rather than scripture, is directly authoritative for a Catholic regarding the nature and will of God.
**
 
**The options for us are essentially the same as for Adam & Eve-to choose right over wrong- which means to choose obedience over disobedience. And this can begin to happen only as one comes to believe that there exists an authority superior to himself worthy of obedience. And this authority we believe to be God, expressing His will through the Church, which we believe has been given authority to proclaim His message. This is why the Church, rather than scripture, is directly authoritative for a Catholic regarding the nature and will of God.
**
That does not address the issue. “You” can’t “choose” right over wrong or obedience over disobedience if “god” is the one determining “your” steps.
 
That does not address the issue. “You” can’t “choose” right over wrong or obedience over disobedience if “god” is the one determining “your” steps.
Let’s bring this into the realm of human experience: Not only has God, the first cause of all things, determined and established what men will choose, He also determined and established means (secondary causes)which serve His greater purpose. One such means, as it relates to what men choose, is our wants.
The debate here is: just how free are we when it comes to choosing what we want? The answer, from the point of that secondary cause is, that we are only as free as our God-given desires allow us to be. In other words, we are free to choose what we want, and we are not free to choose what we don’t want.
Apply this to salvation. Are men free to choose Christ? Only if they want to.
If God is indeed the first cause of all things, including our wants, then salvation is not of the man who wills, or runs, but of God who has mercy.(Romans 9:16)
 
That does not address the issue. “You” can’t “choose” right over wrong or obedience over disobedience if “god” is the one determining “your” steps.
If you read all of Psalm 37, which is where the verse you’ve quoted comes from I believe, you’ll see that God is directing the steps of the man who chooses to follow Him-and obviously not the steps of those who reject Him. Below is a verse from Sirach which also spells this out. Man’s freedom to choose is so radical that he can, unlike the rest of creation, decide whether or not he’ll go along with the order determined by God. In any case, the quote from the Catechism at the bottom is an example of the Church addressing this issue, using part of the Sirach citation and also a line from a Vat II doc.
The Catholic’ position is that man is free with limitations. He possessed –and still does-the freedom to disobey God but does not possess the right to do so.

**When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Sirach 15:14-18

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27 **
 
I don’t know if this simple analogy will help or not, but I’ll give it a try.

I like to think of God as a loving parent who sets rules and boundaries ONLY for our good just like parents do for their children. He loves each of His children with “an everlasting lovve” and would go through His passion and death for each and every one of them if that child were the only one existing on the earth.

Children who have more obstinate tendencies need the loving discipline of their parents more than children inclined to obedience. The former may grow in obedience through the law (parents’ rules) and even eventually come to realize the necessity of the law for their growth and development. In this way, they are spared many bad choices. The latter may grow through obedience to possibly a higher degree of (free) love merely because of the love they received to start with.

Of course, all analogies are imperfect, some more so than others. In both cases, each of the children can make free choices all along. Besides no one can fit into such neat compartments. But for the sake of the understanding of our free will, it might be advantageous to read C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity”. Book One is noted as “Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe.” Chapter One is titled “The Law of Human Nature”. Here Lewis emphasizes a standard of living life. Quote:

“If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will really stike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own. . . I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two make five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to–whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or every one. But hey have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. . .”

Who would want to live in such a contrary world? Certainly, we are limited in our choices. Not every one is athletic and can play hockey on a national team. Not every one has the brains of an Einstein. It’s the old argument of nature vs. nuture. We come into this world with a blueprint, DNA, genes and we are also limited by environment. But unlike B.F. Skinner who theorized that man is conditioned to act (kind of like a reflex), therefore, he has no freedom of will, man is free to choose what is best for himself or what will bring him harm and those around him.

So, yes, there are boundaries, and our freedom is the CHOICE of good or evil. Lewis explains this well in his chapter on Natural Law. (God set it into motion and knows every detail and is in every detail. He sees us as a whole–not just as we appear to each other from moment to moment, but as He is forming us in the secret place of every mother’s womb, all throughout our lives and at the end of our lives on earth).
RookieOnEdge - you have excellent ideas and express them very well.

I like to think more along the lines that inherent in our choices are consequences. If I put my bare hand on a hot stove, it will do me harm. Does that mean I am not “free” because I can’t just do anything I want? No, I am “free” to make choices, but the CONSEQUENCES of those choices I have no control over. Real freedom lies in making and actualizing choices that do me and others good and bring us to our ultimate freedom and good - God. The consequences/results (fruits) of those choices will be evident to self and others whether you want them to be or not.

Now the place where God meets us is in our CONSCIENCE - the quiet of our mind/heart where we allow His Spirit to show us what is motivating us (either pushing or pulling us in the choices we make). “You created my inmost self” Psalm 139

This inner most self is our CONSCIENCE … that secret place fully known by God alone where He speaks to each of us (if we only but listen in humility).
 
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
This statement does not accord with the whole counsel of the Bible. Yes, man is rational and has some capacity to initiate and control his ow actions. But that doesn’t mean that God willed that man ‘should be left in the counsel of his own will.’
That statement clearly contradicts the doctrine of God’s sovereignty. Scripture unashamedly declares that man’s acts are subservient to God’s decree. Some of the the pertinent texts are posted by morgantj here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4988821&postcount=205
 
This statement does not accord with the whole counsel of the Bible. Yes, man is rational and has some capacity to initiate and control his ow actions. But that doesn’t mean that God willed that man ‘should be left in the counsel of his own will.’
That statement clearly contradicts the doctrine of God’s sovereignty. Scripture unashamedly declares that man’s acts are subservient to God’s decree. Some of the the pertinent texts are posted by morgantj here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4988821&postcount=205
If man wasn’t ‘left in the counsel of his own will’ then he never could’ve sinned in the garden. Otherwise we’d be saying that God willed or “authored” sin and few denominations allow for that.
 
RookieOnEdge - you have excellent ideas and express them very well.

I like to think more along the lines that inherent in our choices are consequences. If I put my bare hand on a hot stove, it will do me harm. Does that mean I am not “free” because I can’t just do anything I want? No, I am “free” to make choices, but the CONSEQUENCES of those choices I have no control over. Real freedom lies in making and actualizing choices that do me and others good and bring us to our ultimate freedom and good - God. The consequences/results (fruits) of those choices will be evident to self and others whether you want them to be or not.

Now the place where God meets us is in our CONSCIENCE - the quiet of our mind/heart where we allow His Spirit to show us what is motivating us (either pushing or pulling us in the choices we make). “You created my inmost self” Psalm 139

This inner most self is our CONSCIENCE … that secret place fully known by God alone where He speaks to each of us (if we only but listen in humility).
It is fascinating to view the question of free will from various perspectives. I’m still in the learning process which I don’t suspect will end until the end of my life on earth. Interestingly, post #283 looks at the subject of free will from the perspective of first cause, God, "determining " (I disagree with the term) what men will choose and secondary casuses, the "means as it relates to what men choose, . . . our wants.’

Your position, also extremely interesting, seems to be if I’m understanding it correctly, that because there are consequences (which we can readily see, experience, both good and bad on moral issues or neutral on practical, non-moral issues) there must be causes–as you said “cause and effect”–certainly a worthy argument.

Another poster suspects there is a “subtle difference between the will of an individual and the prooperty of Free Will” itself. Free will is the “reason why we can say we are made in the image of God.”

This latter observation reflects my own thinking, but I also agree with your “cause and effect” argument as well as the argument from choice, “as it relates to what men choose.”
Being made in the image of God enobles us and enables to use the free will to choose wihat is good for us and even what isn’t. I brought this up in another thread “new member looking for discussion” which I think is now defunct.

I hope I didn’t put words on others’ mouths here. I’m just trying to summarize a few proposals about the concept of free will.

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)
 
It is fascinating to view the question of free will from various perspectives. I’m still in the learning process which I don’t suspect will end until the end of my life on earth. Interestingly, post #283 looks at the subject of free will from the perspective of first cause, God, "determining " (I disagree with the term) what men will choose and secondary casuses, the "means as it relates to what men choose, . . . our wants.’

Your position, also extremely interesting, seems to be if I’m understanding it correctly, that because there are consequences (which we can readily see, experience, both good and bad on moral issues or neutral on practical, non-moral issues) there must be causes–as you said “cause and effect”–certainly a worthy argument.

Another poster suspects there is a “subtle difference between the will of an individual and the prooperty of Free Will” itself. Free will is the “reason why we can say we are made in the image of God.”

This latter observation reflects my own thinking, but I also agree with your “cause and effect” argument as well as the argument from choice, “as it relates to what men choose.”
Being made in the image of God enobles us and enables to use the free will to choose wihat is good for us and even what isn’t. I brought this up in another thread “new member looking for discussion” which I think is now defunct.

I hope I didn’t put words on others’ mouths here. I’m just trying to summarize a few proposals about the concept of free will.

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)
Like you, I am still in the process of learning. For me, I make a clear distinction between “free-will” and “freedom”. Free-will is the act of making choices. What we choose depends on our freedom (ie - how free we are). When we are able to always choose what is Good, we are truly free. To the degree we are unable to choose what is Good, we are not free. The choices we made yesterday influence/effect the choices we make today. The choices we make today will influence the choices we make tomorrow.

“Grace builds upon nature.” findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_15_36/ai_59607730
 
Although God gave us free will to choose between right and wrong, we can use this gift to give back to God.

A little book called “Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence” explains how to submit our wills to God. The book has two sections one by Father Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure, S.J. and
Saint Claude de la Colombiere, S.J.

I just want to quote from pages 38-39:

“Since it is the most perfect act of charity and the most pleasing and acceptable sacrifice that is given to man to offer to God, there can be no doubt that whoever practices entire submission to His Will lays up inesimable treasures at every moment and amasses more riches in a few days than others are able to acquire in many years and with great labor. To remain indifferent to good fortune or to adversity by accepting it all from the hand of God without questioning, not to ask for things to be done as we would like them but as God wishes, to make the intention of all our prayers that God’s Will should be perfectly accomplished in ourselves and in all creatures is to find the secret of happiness and content.”

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)
 
Like you, I am still in the process of learning. For me, I make a clear distinction between “free-will” and “freedom”. Free-will is the act of making choices. What we choose depends on our freedom (ie - how free we are). When we are able to always choose what is Good, we are truly free. To the degree we are unable to choose what is Good, we are not free. The choices we made yesterday influence/effect the choices we make today. The choices we make today will influence the choices we make tomorrow.

“Grace builds upon nature.” findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_15_36/ai_59607730
You expressed the nature of this topic so eloquently and so succinctly. Thank you.
I linked to the article by Fr. Richard McBrien from Notre Dame U (big problem there now!) who writes for the “National Catholic Reporter.” He extolled St. Thomas of Aquinas for good reason. I would never have guessed that the article was written by Fr. McBrien considering all I’ve heard about him–that he’s very liberal and so is the “Reporter.” It was an interesting article though.

“In those respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself.” (St. Bernard)
 
If man wasn’t ‘left in the counsel of his own will’ then he never could’ve sinned in the garden. Otherwise we’d be saying that God willed or “authored” sin and few denominations allow for that.
This is a very delicate matter, but I’m glad you bring it up because it’s worth exploring.
It is, however, very complex, so I doubt just one simple post will suffice, but here goes. Let’s call this, ‘the role of sin, in the plan of God.’
There are many examples we can point out from the Scriptures which demonstrate that God uses the sinful behavior of men in order to carry out His purposes.
For instance, the experience of Joseph in Genesis. His brothers practically murdered him out of envy. But years later, when Joseph meets up with his brothers, note his response to them regarding their injustice toward him:
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
God used the evil intentions of Joseph’s brothers in order to carry out His good intentions. That’s quite a profound statement coming from a man who suffered for years at the hands of many sinners.

The early church fully understood the role of evil in the plan of God. Consider the book of Acts chapter 4. In verse23 we read of how Peter and John were released from imprisonment and reported to the church how that the Gentiles persecuted them for preaching the Gospel. Now, carefully consider the prayer that follows:
Acts 4:24 "And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’–”

Here the church is quoting from Psalm 2, a Messianic Psalm, and they are going to apply it to their situation:
verse 4:27 “for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,”

Basically they are telling God that they recognized Jesus trial and crucifixion as a fulfillment of that Psalm. Now note their God-centered interpretation of how it thus came to pass:
Acts 4:28 “to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”

They are telling God that His hand and His plan was the reason those evil men killed Jesus. But they also understood God’s good intention for causing that to happen. Therefore, they continue in their prayer asking God that just as He moved those evil men to carry out the crucifixion of Jesus, that He would now exercise His restraining power over them:
Acts 4:29 “And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

Lastly, notice how God responded to their acknowledgment that He is behind everything mentioned in their prayer:

Act 4:31 “And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.”

God shook that place, as if to say, “AMEN!”
 
There are many examples we can point out from the Scriptures which demonstrate that God uses the sinful behavior of men in order to carry out His purposes.
And the point you are trying to make is?
What is it that you are inferring in your statement “because God uses the sinful behavior of men in order to carry out His purposes”?

I hope you are not saying that all of human history is just a chess board in which God has been moving all the pieces … in other words that all of human history can be “blamed” on God. Please say it isn’t so sammy… lol
 
God is the efficient cause of every being that exists -outside of Himself-and every act that takes place in the universe. Nothing or no one moves without God enabling it. But God leaves the “willing” –the how we’ll move or behave-to us. And as has been noted, He elected to bring a greater good out of the evil He knew would occur, apparently determining that it was better to create than not. And I think the vast majority of us would agree whole-heartily-or at least semi-heartily-that it’s worth it; existence is good even in a world like this one.
 
And the point you are trying to make is?
What is it that you are inferring in your statement “because God uses the sinful behavior of men in order to carry out His purposes”?

I hope you are not saying that all of human history is just a chess board in which God has been moving all the pieces … in other words that all of human history can be “blamed” on God. Please say it isn’t so sammy… lol
“It isn’t so sammy”:cool:
Those two biblical accounts clearly demonstrate that God does use the sinful behavior of men in order to carry out His purposes. I didn’t make it up, it’s in the text. That being said, what I am inferring doesn’t matter. What matters is, “thus sayeth the Lord.”
These texts are inferring that although men act out of their own evil intent, they are also unintentionally, and inevitably fulfilling God’s good and holy intent. For instance, God used pagan Assyria to chastise His apostate Israel.

Isaiah 10:5 “Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury! Against a godless nation* I send him*, and against the people of my wrath I command him, to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.”

God was determined to bring calamity upon certain nations by means of wicked Assyria. However Assyria was oblivious that they were carrying out a good and noble cause of God:

Isa 10:7 “But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think; but it is in his heart to destroy, and to cut off nations not a few.”

We could apply Joseph’s words here, “Assyria meant evil against Israel, but God meant it for good…”

Although Assyria was under the control of God (even their evil intentions and brutal behavior) God was not to be blamed for their sin because God used their wickedness to carry out His good and holy purpose.

Then, when God finished using them to fulfill His purpose, He turned around and punished them for their sin:

Isaiah 10:12 “When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.”

The reason God gives that He will punish Assyria is that they didn’t glorify God for giving them the strength and ability to carry out their campaigns:

Isaiah 10:13 "For he says: “By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I have understanding; I remove the boundaries of peoples, and plunder their treasures; like a bull I bring down those who sit on thrones.”

So, although evil behavior is under God’s control, God cannot be blamed for it because He uses it for good. This has so many implications for the reason the Christian can have hope in God. This is the reason Paul could say, in Romans 8 “For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Because, “you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.”
 
I hope you are not saying that all of human history is just a chess board in which God has been moving all the pieces … in other words that all of human history can be “blamed” on God.
That seems like an accurate analogy. And scripture supports it. And scripture doesn’t support it! There are obvious contradictions. You can not sort it out unless you reinterpret to mean something else just to fit with your current beliefs. But to do so would be dishonest. It is best just to acknoledge these contradictions and keep a fair and honest level of skepticism about the bible.
 
That seems like an accurate analogy. And scripture supports it. And scripture doesn’t support it! There are obvious contradictions. You can not sort it out unless you reinterpret to mean something else just to fit with your current beliefs. But to do so would be dishonest. It is best just to acknoledge these contradictions and keep a fair and honest level of skepticism about the bible.
There are so many different ways I could respond to you - but for now I will just simply say that I do not believe for one second that God is a Master Puppeteer … and we are the marionette’s … that all of human history is just a series of cause/effects … dominoes … that God has set in motion … and the “cause” of all determinations/end results. Sin and Evil ARE NOT part of God’s plan nor willed by God in any shape or form … God and sin are diametrically opposed … because of the very nature of God’s holiness … WHO God is in Himself … in Essence …

Now God had options before the world was created … before anything existed other than God: To name some of these options -
  1. Continue to BE for all eternity without ever creating anything
  2. Create a Universe in which all creation would be passive objects that were ruled completely by outside forces/laws
  3. Create a Universe in which included the passive objects as stated previously AND objects that would have the ability to react to forces … and consider past,present, and future … to reflect … to consider … to weigh alternatives … to make choices that would result in particular outcomes … creatures that could choose their own destiny …
I do not believe we live in a Universe where we just passively react to forces that would result in outcomes we have no say in … my own common sense tells me that is not the kind of world we live in … I truly believe each of us can change our lives and the world for good … in the choices we make … in the GRACE we recieve …

Let me reiterate what I know to be true -
God is NOT a master Puppeteer and we the Marionettes.
God is NOT a master Manipulator (contrary to how you interpret the scriptures).
All that happens in human history is NOT “caused” by God.
God is NOT the cause of evil.

Definition of Marionette

A marionette is a puppet controlled from above using strings; a marionette’s puppeteer is called a manipulator.[1] Marionettes are operated with the puppeteer hidden or revealed to an audience by using a vertical or horizontal control bar in different forms of theatres or entertainment venues. [2] They have also been used in films and on television.

Puppeteer David Logan writes that “Marionettes are seen by many as the most complex form of puppetry perhaps due to the time it takes to make them and to learn how to effectively manipulate them. They are capable of a greater range of movement possibilities than the other forms of puppetry.”
 
There are so many different ways I could respond to you - but for now I will just simply say that I do not believe for one second that God is a Master Puppeteer … and we are the marionette’s … that all of human history is just a series of cause/effects … dominoes … that God has set in motion … and the “cause” of all determinations/end results. Sin and Evil ARE NOT part of God’s plan nor willed by God in any shape or form … God and sin are diametrically opposed … because of the very nature of God’s holiness … WHO God is in Himself … in Essence …

Now God had options before the world was created … before anything existed other than God: To name some of these options -
  1. Continue to BE for all eternity without ever creating anything
  2. Create a Universe in which all creation would be passive objects that were ruled completely by outside forces/laws
  3. Create a Universe in which included the passive objects as stated previously AND objects that would have the ability to react to forces … and consider past,present, and future … to reflect … to consider … to weigh alternatives … to make choices that would result in particular outcomes … creatures that could choose their own destiny …
In his 1752 *Essay in Cosmology * Maupertuis claimed the unification of physics with metaphysics, and even with morals can be made. In later work, he claims that a certain quantity of good (or bad) is attached to each of our actions, and that God has ordained the world so that, adding up all the good and subtracting all the bad, the balance will be found to be the greatest possible. In other words, this is the best of all possible worlds.

See Ivar Ekland’s book The Best of All Possible Worlds: Mathematics and Destiny

Thus, if God acted and interacted differently than he has done or will do, the overall balance of Good vs. Evil will tend to evil. This is the best world (considering all time and space) that can be created with beings who have free will. Recall that from great evil can come great good.
 
In his 1752 *Essay in Cosmology * Maupertuis claimed the unification of physics with metaphysics, and even with morals can be made. In later work, he claims that a certain quantity of good (or bad) is attached to each of our actions, and that God has ordained the world so that, adding up all the good and subtracting all the bad, the balance will be found to be the greatest possible. In other words, this is the best of all possible worlds.

See Ivar Ekland’s book The Best of All Possible Worlds: Mathematics and Destiny

Thus, if God acted and interacted differently than he has done or will do, the overall balance of Good vs. Evil will tend to evil. This is the best world (considering all time and space) that can be created with beings who have free will. Recall that from great evil can come great good.
Very interesting ideas.
Yes I do believe that from great evil can come great good. That is the very essence of the Cross of Christ … God recreating the world through Christ I do not know of any greater evil the cross) or greater good (salvation).
 
There are so many different ways I could respond to you - but for now I will just simply say that I do not believe for one second that God is a Master Puppeteer … and we are the marionette’s … that all of human history is just a series of cause/effects … dominoes … that God has set in motion … and the “cause” of all determinations/end results. Sin and Evil ARE NOT part of God’s plan nor willed by God in any shape or form … God and sin are diametrically opposed … because of the very nature of God’s holiness … WHO God is in Himself … in Essence …

Now God had options before the world was created … before anything existed other than God: To name some of these options -
  1. Continue to BE for all eternity without ever creating anything
  2. Create a Universe in which all creation would be passive objects that were ruled completely by outside forces/laws
  3. Create a Universe in which included the passive objects as stated previously AND objects that would have the ability to react to forces … and consider past,present, and future … to reflect … to consider … to weigh alternatives … to make choices that would result in particular outcomes … creatures that could choose their own destiny …
I do not believe we live in a Universe where we just passively react to forces that would result in outcomes we have no say in … my own common sense tells me that is not the kind of world we live in … I truly believe each of us can change our lives and the world for good … in the choices we make … in the GRACE we recieve …

Let me reiterate what I know to be true -
God is NOT a master Puppeteer and we the Marionettes.
God is NOT a master Manipulator (contrary to how you interpret the scriptures).
All that happens in human history is NOT “caused” by God.
God is NOT the cause of evil.

Definition of Marionette

A marionette is a puppet controlled from above using strings; a marionette’s puppeteer is called a manipulator.[1] Marionettes are operated with the puppeteer hidden or revealed to an audience by using a vertical or horizontal control bar in different forms of theatres or entertainment venues. [2] They have also been used in films and on television.

Puppeteer David Logan writes that “Marionettes are seen by many as the most complex form of puppetry perhaps due to the time it takes to make them and to learn how to effectively manipulate them. They are capable of a greater range of movement possibilities than the other forms of puppetry.”
As I said, You can not sort it out unless you reinterpret to mean something else just to fit with your current beliefs. Now, I rest my case.
 
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