How Free is our Free-Will?

[Wild_Boar]

Actually, it doesn’t. And your definition doesn’t support that we have choices either. It supports the opposite. LOL!

If the Lord establishes mans steps, then man really doesn’t have a choice. He is going to step as the Lord has determined him to.

Yes, of course he will step accordingly. But, not after first considering his options, and exercising his God-given ability to make judgments in order to choose what he deems to be the best course of action he should take.

I may not be using the best choice of words, but it really doesn’t matter anyway, does it?

 

[morgantj]

Yes, of course he will step accordingly. But, not after first considering his options, and exercising his God-given ability to make judgments in order to choose what he deems to be the best course of action he should take.

I may not be using the best choice of words, but it really doesn’t matter anyway, does it?

There are no options for him to consider. as it says, “the Lord establishes mans steps,” not man. Man can only do what the lord has established for him to do. He has no choice in the matter.

 

[matthew79]

Well, I don’t mind being corrected. I’m talking of the way I’ve experienced and understood things. But go ahead and try to come up with my errors and we can dialog about it. If it has anything to do with the stuff about happiness, I can show you sources for that. In any case our God and our faith are truly awesome things, properly understood.

i think it was when you said it was about god trying to convince and draw man. that sounds like some of the nonsense youd hear from a televangelist. the protestants constantly make the argument that all you need is a personal relationship and you have to accept jesus as your personal lord and savior etc. thats fundamentally wrong.

it is not god who has to convince you that HES worthy but its YOU who has to convice god that youre worthy. faith AND works. faith AND works.

you might have been spot on and 100% accurate up to that point, but when i got to that point you lost me completely. then again im no expert and it could be the teaching of the church that this is a giant game wherein god tries to convince us to follow him without impeding our free will.

 

[matthew79]

Adam & Eve were given the freedom to disobey Gods’ will. But He made it clear that this was not their right by giving them a commandment (His will) that they were not to break.

if gods will dictated the outcome of mans will then how can it be said man even had a will to begin with?

when your choice is live or die how hard of a choice can it be? man wouldnt have had the choice to disobey if man didnt have the right. the very idea that youre FREE supposes that you have the right to do whatever you want to do.

in the context of the declaration of independence. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness constitute freedom.

in the context of religion, if my pursuit of happiness happens to be contrary to gods will, then ill be roasting in hell for eternity. and if thats the case, then how am i really free at all?

 

[Wild_Boar]

There are no options for him to consider. as it says, “the Lord establishes mans steps,” not man. Man can only do what the lord has established for him to do. He has no choice in the matter.

left or right? Chocolate or vanilla? life or death? God often manifests the establishment of our steps by means of fulfilling the choices we make. If we turn left, yes it because of God’s eternal decree, but that doesn’t mean our brain went into a vegetative state during the process of determination.

Just because God has determined what kind of ice cream we will eat for dessert, that doesn’t mean we are to sit at an empty table and wait for Him to serve us.

Deut. 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”

Even though we are subject to His predetermined purpose, He is going to judge us for the choices we make.

Deut 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.”

 

[fhansen]

if gods will dictated the outcome of mans will then how can it be said man even had a will to begin with?

when your choice is live or die how hard of a choice can it be? man wouldnt have had the choice to disobey if man didnt have the right. the very idea that youre FREE supposes that you have the right to do whatever you want to do.

in the context of the declaration of independence. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness constitute freedom.

in the context of religion, if my pursuit of happiness happens to be contrary to gods will, then ill be roasting in hell for eternity. and if thats the case, then how am i really free at all?

**The difference may be in our usage of the word. In any case my point is that God gives us free will but not the right to abuse it-that’s what makes sin morally wrong-that God, the creator of human morality, determines right and wrong-and He told them what their prerogatives were beforehand. The moral right to commit the act of disobedience was not granted, in fact it was clearly forbidden.
**

 

[fhansen]

i think it was when you said it was about god trying to convince and draw man. that sounds like some of the nonsense youd hear from a televangelist. the protestants constantly make the argument that all you need is a personal relationship and you have to accept jesus as your personal lord and savior etc. thats fundamentally wrong.

it is not god who has to convince you that HES worthy but its YOU who has to convice god that youre worthy. faith AND works. faith AND works.

you might have been spot on and 100% accurate up to that point, but when i got to that point you lost me completely. then again im no expert and it could be the teaching of the church that this is a giant game wherein god tries to convince us to follow him without impeding our free will.

I don’t know about televangelists but Protestants don’t generally believe that man has a role to play in his own salvation, whereas Catholicism teaches that we must cooperate with God in our salvation- that our *wills *are involved. God is called the Potter while we’re the clay. As we’re being molded to the perfection that God desires, our wills are turned more and more towards His will until, ultimately, they are to be as one. God doesn’t have to be patient with us. He doesn’t have to put up with us at all but He does because He loves with an unfathomably deep and unconditional love. So Jesus dies for us while we’re yet in our sins and God draws us from darkness into the light. You’re right, God shouldn’t need to convince us of anything-but He didn’t need to let Adam & Eve freely choose to rebel against Him in the first place for that matter- and in Jesus He actually went the whole route, humbling and lowering Himself to live, suffer, and die as a human, the righteous dying for the unrighteous, demonstrating and proving a love and trustworthiness that should’ve never been doubted but was, according to the Catechism. These paragraphs show the legacy of the fall-a legacy that continues to reside in mans’ heart as he lost trust in God, preferred himself to God, scorned Him, and came to fear Him, all without reason:

**397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281 **

Risking sounding like a televangelist-I still don’t know where that came from-I’ll thump the bible once:

**“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44

306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.

160 To be human, "man’s response to God by faith must be free, and. . . therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act."39 "God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus."40 Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. "For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom. . . grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself."41 **

 

[matthew79]

you thump on the bible pretty good chief. or the catechism at least. (i think thats the catechism.) and it was pretty effective. “the act of faith is of its very nature a free act” it said.

i cant disagree with that. and seein as how the belief in god has entirely to do with faith, then i reckon that there is more “free will” than i had supposed there was.

"Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. "For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom. . . grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself."41

thats pretty profound and thought provoking. but i still hold the opinion that belief IS forced. maybe christ didnt impose the truth on anybody but the truth is if you reject christ you roast for eternity. i still cant get past that.

ive said it over and over again. we only have the “free” will to either choose life or death. and there is no way anybody in their right mind would choose death.

if youre gonna say “adam chose death” then ill even disagree with that. adam chose to believe that there was more to his life. which in my opinion was natural. he had no idea that the result would be death.

thanks though for the catechism quotes. i think im going to make an effort to read it and see what it says. i had never read it before.

 

[fhansen]

thanks though for the catechism quotes. i think im going to make an effort to read it and see what it says. i had never read it before.

This is part of the Catechisms’ teaching on hell.

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

This punishment is solely a freely chosen one for those who prefer selfishness and self-righteousness over all that is good and right and ordered and in union with and subordinate to the one thing worth being subordinate to: Love. We should understand that in Catholic thought obedience to God is simply good for man for no other reason than that Gods’ will cannot be anything other than right. And He gives us the time here to figure that out.

Anyway, good luck with your search wherever it takes you.

 

[morgantj]

life or death?

The finish line is not the opposite of the race, it is the end of the race.

Even though we are subject to His predetermined purpose, He is going to judge us for the choices we make.

That makes no sense, it is contradictory. If he is determining our steps, we are NOT making choices, we are merely following the one and only path he has determined for us. We can do nothing other than this. No choices. He can’t judge us for the choices we make because he didn’t give us any options to choose from, he already determined our steps. “the Lord establishes mans steps,”

He has determined you to go to heaven or hell or whatever else and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

This punishment is solely a freely chosen one for those who prefer selfishness and self-righteousness over all that is good and right and ordered and in union with and subordinate to the one thing worth being subordinate to: Love.

That is impossible and certainly is not free will.

From the sounds of it, God created the game, he has decided what the rules are going to be and he has decided to act as the referee and the replay judge for the final decision.

Humans are just the players who are bound by the rules and basically have two choices.

1. Follow the rules of the game and you get eternal bliss.
2. Break the rules of the game and you get eternal damnation

Seems like induced obedience to me and not very " free" at all.

I must also wonder, God being omniscient, already knows the end result for every person, before they are even born. So, clearly, God creates lives, with the foreknowledge if they are going to choose heaven or hell.

Yet, God creates them anyway, if the people who are going to be damned to hell.

 

[rookieonedge]

That is impossible and certainly is not free will.

From the sounds of it, God created the game, he has decided what the rules are going to be and he has decided to act as the referee and the replay judge for the final decision.

Humans are just the players who are bound by the rules and basically have two choices.

1. Follow the rules of the game and you get eternal bliss.
2. Break the rules of the game and you get eternal damnation

Seems like induced obedience to me and not very " free" at all.

I must also wonder, God being omniscient, already knows the end result for every person, before they are even born. So, clearly, God creates lives, with the foreknowledge if they are going to choose heaven or hell.

Yet, God creates them anyway, if the people who are going to be damned to hell.

I don’t know if this simple analogy will help or not, but I’ll give it a try.

I like to think of God as a loving parent who sets rules and boundaries ONLY for our good just like parents do for their children. He loves each of His children with “an everlasting lovve” and would go through His passion and death for each and every one of them if that child were the only one existing on the earth.

Children who have more obstinate tendencies need the loving discipline of their parents more than children inclined to obedience. The former may grow in obedience through the law (parents’ rules) and even eventually come to realize the necessity of the law for their growth and development. In this way, they are spared many bad choices. The latter may grow through obedience to possibly a higher degree of (free) love merely because of the love they received to start with.

Of course, all analogies are imperfect, some more so than others. In both cases, each of the children can make free choices all along. Besides no one can fit into such neat compartments. But for the sake of the understanding of our free will, it might be advantageous to read C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity”. Book One is noted as “Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe.” Chapter One is titled “The Law of Human Nature”. Here Lewis emphasizes a standard of living life. Quote:

“If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will really stike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own. . . I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two make five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to–whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or every one. But hey have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. . .”

Who would want to live in such a contrary world? Certainly, we are limited in our choices. Not every one is athletic and can play hockey on a national team. Not every one has the brains of an Einstein. It’s the old argument of nature vs. nuture. We come into this world with a blueprint, DNA, genes and we are also limited by environment. But unlike B.F. Skinner who theorized that man is conditioned to act (kind of like a reflex), therefore, he has no freedom of will, man is free to choose what is best for himself or what will bring him harm and those around him.

So, yes, there are boundaries, and our freedom is the CHOICE of good or evil. Lewis explains this well in his chapter on Natural Law. (God set it into motion and knows every detail and is in every detail. He sees us as a whole–not just as we appear to each other from moment to moment, but as He is forming us in the secret place of every mother’s womb, all throughout our lives and at the end of our lives on earth).

 

[Wild_Boar]

He can’t judge us for the choices we make because he didn’t give us any options to choose from, he already determined our steps.

If there are no options, then what does God tell us to choose from?

 

[jkiernan56]

We don’t choose. **There are no choices.**What appears to be choices are not really choices at all, only conditions that further contribute to determining our path.

Really? There are no choices huh? I guess there are no consequences either … Scotty … beam me up …

 

[Wild_Boar]

i dont necessarily think its free. its like getting a motorcycle for your birthday and being told “only drive it here or there, if you drive it somewhere else youll get thrown in JAIL! where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth”

so your “free will” is already limited by the rules. now between wailling and gnashing your teeth for eternity and freely driving your “motorcycle” wherever you want to go. who in their right mind would CHOOSE to wail and gnash their teeth?

so of COURSE your choices are influenced by things that were in place before you were even born. you execute your “free” will with the thought in mind that you do NOT want to wail and gnash your teeth for eternity.

so how can you “love” for god be anything more than forced? either you roast or you experience paradise. and how can things forced be a free decision at the same time?

i personally dont get it.

Yes, our lives are to be ruled by God’s revealed will or we will suffer. Yes, you are right that it doesn’t make sense that people would choose to do their own thing in spite of the fact. Paul explained how this can be in Romans 1. “Although the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven…men suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”
Men are so bent on sinning that they try to snuff out the clear revelation of God’s wrath. They tell themselves, “there is no God.” or else, “He doesn’t really care how I live.”
People justify the pursuit of their lusts by believing lies about God and His righteous character.

As far as our love for God. Paul the Apostle explained how he could endure the tremendous hardships associated with his ministry with these words: 2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because… He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him who for their sake died and was raised
If you owed a million dollars, and someone paid the debt for you, would you feel obligated to show some gratitude? Of course! Well, Christ suffered unspeakable torments, and gave His life so that those who believe in Him would be spared eternal misery. Those who know they are safe in Him, find that their heart and soul ‘wills’ to do nothing but adore and praise Him with all their might. God doesn’t force His people to love Him, He wins them to it.

 

[Michael_David]

I’m not referring to freedom of the will with regard to what we do, or what decisions we make. I am referring to it as to why we do things. An unconverted man is not able to do things for the right reasons. He lives ultimately for himself and ultimately for what he will get out of life. His aspirations and pursuits are geared toward himself as he is fundamentally self-centered. He does not love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. Rather, he loves himself with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. He does not love his neighbor as himself, instead, he loves himself at the cost of his neighbor.
There are many self-centered men who do much good for their community, but they are doing it for the glory of man and not for the glory of God. You try to share the Gospel with them, but their response is, “I’m all set.” Why? Because they are righteous in their own eyes and because following Christ means denying self. They want to hear men tell them, “Oh, you are such a good, self-sacrificing man.” Instead of giving the glory to God, he keeps it for himself. He is proud, and all about himself, and nothing for God.
Jesus said, “Let your light shine in such a way, that men will see your good works and glorify God in Heaven.”
Self-righteousness says, “yes, praise me, see how good I am in and of myself.”
True righteousness says, “Why do you call me good, there is none good, but God.”(Matt. 19:17)

Yes, I find that we are on the same frequency here. I’d like to enhance on your thoughts that the self-centered person is in the ‘short-term’ of life on this earth; while the life in the Christian is ‘deferred’ for the ‘long-term’, or the here-after.

Granted, there are rewards here and now, but the hardships are taken with the ‘future’ vision… even if there are no rewards presently.

In line with the free-will and the new Covenant’s promise, it may appear from the outside that we do not have a free-will by those observing, but again, it depends where one’s heart is and what it is one is really choosing.

Yes, where does the ‘energy’ to do or be come from… that is a lot harder to observe, and causes a lot of conflict and havoc… if one doesn’t look at the other person like they look at themselves. On a journey… to… but not there yet… still walking along…

Perhaps the Golden Rule is correct: we do onto others as we ‘are’ doing onto ourselves.

 

[Wild_Boar]

In line with the free-will and the new Covenant’s promise, it may appear from the outside that we do not have a free-will by those observing, but again, it depends where one’s heart is and what it is one is really choosing.

Yes, where does the ‘energy’ to do or be come from… that is a lot harder to observe, and causes a lot of conflict and havoc… if one doesn’t look at the other person like they look at themselves. On a journey… to… but not there yet… still walking along…

You’re right, we cannot see what is in a person’s heart and should be very careful about judging others even when a motive seems very obvious by their actions. But we do have the testimony of Scripture to reveal things that are true about the fallen human heart in general.
For instance, In Jeremiah 17:9, we learn, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?” The heart can and does deceive us in many things. It deceives men into thinking that it knows better than God does. We see this manifested by a world which rejects God and says to one another, “follow your heart.” The heart also deceives men regarding who and what they ought to worship.
The heart is also, ‘exceedingly corrupt’ by sin, and we do not have the ability in ourselves to discern just how corrupt it is. “Who can know it?”
Jeremiah 17:10 “I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”
God is the only one that can truly discern the motives of the heart, but God in His mercy has not left us to ourselves. His Word reveals our corruption, and also reveals the remedy: His grace of the new covenant:
Ezekiel 36:26 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.”
When God saves a person, He replaces that deceitful, and exceedingly wicked heart, though not literally, of course. The energy to do truly righteous deeds comes from God’s Spirit which is ‘put within us’ by His sovereign grace.
When the Spirit operates in a redeemed person’s heart, that person learns that it is the Spirit doing these things and not merely himself.
John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.”
Our witness (words and deeds) is the evidence that we have the Spirit. “It is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20)

 

[dcastlen50]

I’m not expert in philosophy or theology so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that there is a subtle difference between the will of an individual and the property of Free Will.

Free Will is a property we possess which allows us to chose between two good things or even between good and evil. It’s a reason why we can say we are made in the image of God.

But each individual possesses a will which is part of our human nature and as such subject to the corruption of original sin. As a result we are likely to exercise our God-given gift of Free Will imperfectly.

You have given me an epiphany:thumbsup:: Is the fact that we, as the bible says, are made in the image of God the beginning of proof (the first premise) that we (do) have a free will? I am curious, your comment is insightful. Perhaps an indication you are equipped to make some major clarifications in regards to this matter.

I’ve innately always believed that we do have a free will. Rationally, I know God controls all things; be He my Christian God or a Deitistic god, the math of the big bang overwhelmingly proves he is not only the first cause but the controller. It seems my subjective side is contradicting my objective view.

By the way, I remember reading or hearing Peter Kreeft say that there are three questions that are constantly a part of Man’s inquiry:
• Is there a God(s)?
• Do we have free will?
• Are we immortal?

At the risk of flattering you, I believe you can make quite a contribution to this topic of Free Will. Please respond.:thankyou:

My personal email is: dcastlen50@hotmail.com

 

[morgantj]

If there are no options, then what does God tell us to choose from?

Exactly. That is what I am pointing out. There are contradictions. The bible says on one hand that god determines our steps, and that he has already determined our salvation, and on the other hand it acts as though we have free-will. It is contradictory.

 

[morgantj]

Really? There are no choices huh? I guess there are no consequences either … Scotty … beam me up …

Cause and effect, causality, consequences, definitely! Consequences are simply effects that were caused, and those causes were caused, and so on… It does not necessitate that those causes were freely-willed. Beam yourself up Scotty.