How Free is our Free-Will?

[Wild_Boar]

That seems like an accurate analogy. And scripture supports it. And scripture doesn’t support it! There are obvious contradictions. You can not sort it out unless you reinterpret to mean something else just to fit with your current beliefs. But to do so would be dishonest. It is best just to acknoledge these contradictions and keep a fair and honest level of skepticism about the bible.

jkiernans’ analogy may be accurate, but it is not complete. If it were, then men are made of plastic or wood and God sits at a checkered board. Since that is not the case, then it cannot follow that God is to be blamed for what we do.

If all men were as mere chess pieces, then none would be enticed to move contrary to the Law of God. Sin occurs when men are “drawn away of their own lust and enticed.” James 1:14
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world.” 1 John 2:16
Lust is not of Father, therefore He cannot be blamed when we are enticed to sin.

 

[jkiernan56]

As I said, You can not sort it out unless you reinterpret to mean something else just to fit with your current beliefs. Now, I rest my case.

No, the difference is where you and I start. I have experienced absolute TRUTH … “God IS” … I have personally experienced the Holiness of God … I absolutely know that God has nothing to do with Evil. The contradiction is only in my limited understanding … but definitely NOT in my understanding of WHO God IS.

 

[fhansen]

That seems like an accurate analogy. And scripture supports it. And scripture doesn’t support it! There are obvious contradictions. You can not sort it out unless you reinterpret to mean something else just to fit with your current beliefs. But to do so would be dishonest. It is best just to acknoledge these contradictions and keep a fair and honest level of skepticism about the bible.

Catholics have a skepticism about *interpretations *of the bible. This is one reason for the need for the Churchs’ authority on matters of faith.

 

[morgantj]

jkiernans’ analogy may be accurate, but it is not complete. If it were, then men are made of plastic or wood and God sits at a checkered board. Since that is not the case, then it cannot follow that God is to be blamed for what we do.

literally, of course not. LOL.

If all men were as mere chess pieces, then none would be enticed to move contrary to the Law of God.

One cannot move contrary to the law of god. He determines your every step. Hence, he is moving the pieces. And he has already determined your salvation!

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

“the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Prov. 16:9

 

[morgantj]

Catholics have a skepticism about *interpretations *of the bible. This is one reason for the need for the Churchs’ authority on matters of faith.

“They must find it difficult…Those who have taken authority as the truth, Rather than truth as the authority.” - G. Massey

 

[fhansen]

“They must find it difficult…Those who have taken authority as the truth, Rather than truth as the authority.” - G. Massey

Adam & Eve rejected Gods’ authority as true, becoming their own authority. Private interpretations of the bible change nothing of this-man effectively remains the authority. But Protestants still think they’ve found it in the bible, Catholics in the Church established by God for that purpose.

 

[Evan]

“They must find it difficult…Those who have taken authority as the truth, Rather than truth as the authority.” - G. Massey

When the authority is truth (I am the way, the truth, and the life) then there is no difficulty. The church was given the authority, and is guided by the Holy Spirit, who leads us to all truth.

Truth cannot be established in a vacuum. Even something as simple as counting (1, 2, 3) relies on an assumption that logical inference is true (eg Modes Ponens) and that there can exist a collection with no members.

 

[Wild_Boar]

literally, of course not. LOL

One cannot move contrary to the law of god. He determines your every step. Hence, he is moving the pieces. And he has already determined your salvation!

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

“the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Prov. 16:9

By the Law of God, I meant the moral law of God, the 10 commandments. Of course men transgress that law. I am addressing the issue of who to blame when we sin. God is not the blamable source of our sin, we are, as we are drawn away and enticed by our lust. James 1:13-14

 

[jkiernan56]

literally, of course not. LOL.

One cannot move contrary to the law of god. He determines your every step. Hence, he is moving the pieces. And he has already determined your salvation!

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

“the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Prov. 16:9

I respectfully disagree with your understanding of scripture. God does not “make” or cause me to be saved. God does NOT violate my free-will.

 

[morgantj]

I respectfully disagree with your understanding of scripture. God does not “make” or cause me to be saved. God does NOT violate my free-will.

Did you choose to be here? Did you choose to be born? Did god give man a choice to exist or not? No. He threw us on the board, arranged us, and moves us. There is only gods plan, you are just his toys.

 

[morgantj]

By the Law of God, I meant the moral law of God, the 10 commandments. Of course men transgress that law. I am addressing the issue of who to blame when we sin. God is not the blamable source of our sin, we are, as we are drawn away and enticed by our lust. James 1:13-14

God has murdered many, don’t think he doesn’t puppeteer us to sin too. For all you know, his intentions when making you sin here and there may be for a greater good.

 

[morgantj]

I respectfully disagree with your understanding of scripture. God does not “make” or cause me to be saved. God does NOT violate my free-will.

yes he does.

 

[jkiernan56]

Did you choose to be here? Did you choose to be born? Did god give man a choice to exist or not? No. He threw us on the board, arranged us, and moves us. There is only gods plan, you are just his toys.

Thats so true - that you and I did not have any choice over whether to be born or not. But I totally disagree with you about where you and I will spend eternity. I completely reject any doctrine that subtly or overtly attributes salvation to only those that God willed to be saved … as if to say God can did not will others to be saved … that He willed others to be eternally separated from Him - that is total nonsense … that is if you understand anything about the Holiness of God … your understanding of reality is much different than mine. You have a very “PROTESTant” understanding of salvation and of the scriptures.

 

[morgantj]

Thats so true - that you and I did not have any choice over whether to be born or not. But I totally disagree with you about where you and I will spend eternity. I completely reject any doctrine that subtly or overtly attributes salvation to only those that God willed to be saved … as if to say God can did not will others to be saved … that He willed others to be eternally separated from Him - that is total nonsense … that is if you understand anything about the Holiness of God … your understanding of reality is much different than mine. You have a very “PROTESTant” understanding of salvation and of the scriptures.

Nobody “knows” god, they only “think” they do.

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - S. Brownell Anthony.

 

[jkiernan56]

Nobody “knows” god, they only “think” they do.

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - S. Brownell Anthony.

“Love one another as I have loved you” … hmmmmm … complicated huh?

 

[jkiernan56]

So does perfect free will leave any room whatsoever for disagreement?

Sure … you can disagree all you want … just as I know what gravity is … and what would happen if i disregarded it … your disagreement doesn’t change reality for me … I will put this to you one more time … I have personally had an experience of the Holiness of God … an experience of Grace … that is where I am coming from … there is nothing you can say or do that would change reality for me in the slightest … once you have experienced real love … you know what it is … but its kind of like telling you what sex is like if you have never experienced it before … do you have any clue about the Holiness of God?

 

[morgantj]

“Love one another as I have loved you” … hmmmmm … complicated huh?

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. "

Indeed.

 

[jkiernan56]

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. "

Indeed.

I respect that you think you do from what you have said here. Honestly, is this what Holiness is to you?

 

[morgantj]

Sure … you can disagree all you want … just as I know what gravity is … and what would happen if i disregarded it … your disagreement doesn’t change reality for me … I will put this to you one more time … I have personally had an experience of the Holiness of God … an experience of Grace … that is where I am coming from … there is nothing you can say or do that would change reality for me in the slightest … once you have experienced real love … you know what it is … but its kind of like telling you what sex is like if you have never experienced it before … do you have any clue about the Holiness of God?

The 9/11 hijackers personally experienced the Holiness of God, and experienced his Grace, nothing you could do could change reality for them in the slightest, they experienced real love, you know what it is, god’s hand guided them to crash those planes into those buildings. Do you have any clue about their REAL and TRUE experiences?

Do you deny them their real experience and communication with God? Or only yours is true?

 

[morgantj]

I respect that you think you do from what you have said here. Honestly, is this what Holiness is to you?

Oops, forgot to add that was Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Does it matter what holiness is to me? Can I even have an opinion on it and act on that opinion? Mustn’t I just accept and act on the authority of the church and what it says holiness is?