How Free is our Free-Will?

[Wild_Boar]

Yes, an oak cannot become a maple; a dog cannot become a cat; a radish cannot become lettuce; physical characteristics are set, it’s nature is set! However, a sinner can become a saint (and sorry to say, visa-versa). What our ‘inclination’ is does not have to be the direction we go;

Jeremiah was asking a rhetorical question. His point is that it is just as possible for
A- an oak to become a maple, or the dog to become a cat
as it is for
B- someone accustomed to do evil (a sinner) to do good (become a saint).
His logic is, if ‘A’, then ‘B’.
The sinner (unconverted man) has no ability to do good because he cannot change his morally evil nature. And since the will always precedes action, then this means that his will is only free to choose to do evil.
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Therefore, man’s only hope is to have his evil nature changed by the One who can change water into wine, cause the blind to see, and lame to walk, etc.

physically I am what I am; mentally I can grow and gain knowledge; intellectually I can learn new ways to reason and logic; spiritually it is up to the (free-will) choices I make in the here-and-now… no matter what the ‘obstacles’ or ‘alternatives’. Will those choices be easy? With my natural ‘inclination’? Hardly! (Until I’m re-trained)(Or until His love makes it easy to choose) no matter the ‘alternatives’ or ‘obstacles’.

This is correct. Once we are in Christ Jesus we are a new creation (2 cor. 5:17), and we are freed from our bondage to sin, and obedience from the heart has become possible though oftentimes very difficult.

We still have that Free-Will to be a saint or a sinner in any situation and at any time and place. The ‘options’ are there… which will you choose?

Yes, the one who has been freed by Christ, has the liberty to choose no longer only evil, but also that which is truly good. “If the Son sets you free, then you shall be free indeed!” John 8:36

 

[Michael_David]

Jeremiah was asking a rhetorical question. His point is that it is just as possible for
A- an oak to become a maple, or the dog to become a cat
as it is for
B- someone accustomed to do evil (a sinner) to do good (become a saint).
His logic is, if ‘A’, then ‘B’.
The sinner (unconverted man) has no ability to do good because he cannot change his morally evil nature. And since the will always precedes action, then this means that his will is only free to choose to do evil.
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Therefore, man’s only hope is to have his evil nature changed by the One who can change water into wine, cause the blind to see, and lame to walk, etc.

You and I look at this a bit differently… not directly opposite, but more so perpendicular.

Example: my grandma, a nice child, loving others and nature; growing up honoring her wifely duties; raised her kids religiously; was a loving and nice grandma… and you say she was ‘unable’ to do good. OK, was she ‘converted’ since Baptism (which happened one week after birth)? Or was she a ‘sinner’ until she made an adult (mature) informed ‘moral’ choice to follow the Way (which she was already doing as a child)? Or until Christ came into her life (at some unknown time… if He did)?

Then, we can look at Saul… blinded by the Light… and becoming St. Paul. This is a ‘conversion’ of the Highest Order. Or we can look at those fisherman… were they ‘sinners’ not able to do good, until Christ said “Follow Me”…?

As is said, Christ came for the ‘sinner’… not the ‘righteous’. So what are the ‘righteous’ to do? Are they able to do ‘good’ being what they are (after Baptism)? No blinding light; no being called; no conversion; just simply being and doing what their parents thought them in the religious nature through love.

Where is it these ‘unsung’ hero’s belong? The so-called ‘righteous’?

 

[rookieonedge]

You and I look at this a bit differently… not directly opposite, but more so perpendicular.

Example: my grandma, a nice child, loving others and nature; growing up honoring her wifely duties; raised her kids religiously; was a loving and nice grandma… and you say she was ‘unable’ to do good. OK, was she ‘converted’ since Baptism (which happened one week after birth)? Or was she a ‘sinner’ until she made an adult (mature) informed ‘moral’ choice to follow the Way (which she was already doing as a child)? Or until Christ came into her life (at some unknown time… if He did)?

Then, we can look at Saul… blinded by the Light… and becoming St. Paul. This is a ‘conversion’ of the Highest Order. Or we can look at those fisherman… were they ‘sinners’ not able to do good, until Christ said “Follow Me”…?

As is said, Christ came for the ‘sinner’… not the ‘righteous’. So what are the ‘righteous’ to do? Are they able to do ‘good’ being what they are (after Baptism)? No blinding light; no being called; no conversion; just simply being and doing what their parents thought them in the religious nature through love.

Where is it these ‘unsung’ hero’s belong? The so-called ‘righteous’?

Sounds like my dear, but deceased, grandma who raised 10 children in her strict, old-fashioned Catholic way. I would say that if anyone in our extended family is a saint, she would fit the glove. Stoic in her faith all her life, she didn’t need to be knocked off a horse to admit God into her life. We are all on different paths, and the Lord knows our hearts and what is needed in our lives to draw us closer to Himself.

Several saints have called all of our good deeds, done without being washed in the Blood of Christ, filthy rags. St. Faustina is one excellent example, as well as St. Teresa of Avila and Blessed Josepha Menendez (and so many more who described our “good acts” as useless or unworthy, since they were not done without a certain amount of pride.) When an act is done in, through and with the Lord, it becomes worthy because it is done in humility. A humble soul is what atttracts our God.

So those who have been drawing closer and closer to the “fount of Mercy” all their lives reside in the Sacred Heart and are not “blinded by the light” because they are already in the light. Some souls are called in a direct or intense way as St. Paul. The Lord understood his “good” intentions and knew he would see clearly and evangelize the world.

 

[Wild_Boar]

You and I look at this a bit differently… not directly opposite, but more so perpendicular.
Example: my grandma, a nice child, loving others and nature; growing up honoring her wifely duties; raised her kids religiously; was a loving and nice grandma… and you say she was ‘unable’ to do good. OK, was she ‘converted’ since Baptism (which happened one week after birth)? Or was she a ‘sinner’ until she made an adult (mature) informed ‘moral’ choice to follow the Way (which she was already doing as a child)? Or until Christ came into her life (at some unknown time… if He did)?

We need to realize what doing good really means.
The difference between self-righteousness and true righteousness:
The Pharisees thought they were righteous before God because they never touched a woman or took a man’s life. Rather, they tithed 10 percent of all they had, fasted twice a week, etc. Yet Jesus called them hypocrites and vipers.
Who would have thought?
If a Jew were to see a Pharisee right alongside a tax-collector, both of them praying in the temple, what would he have thought about them? Probably that the Pharisee was righteous and the other was a hypocrite. But Jesus gave an instance of the exact opposite.
He told about the Pharisee who prayed out loud, “I thank you that I am not like this tax-collector, but that I tithe and fast, etc.” Then He told about how the tax-collector could not even raise his eyes to Heaven, but smote upon his breast and said, “God be merciful to me the sinner.” Jesus said that the tax-collector returned to his house justified rather than the other.
Owning our sin with humility and contrition is what impresses God. Good works flow from a heart which recognizes the mercy God offers in Christ. This is the heart of true righteousness: owning our sin and confessing God as the only good one. “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered, “no one is good- except God alone.”

Then, we can look at Saul… blinded by the Light… and becoming St. Paul. This is a ‘conversion’ of the Highest Order. Or we can look at those fisherman… were they ‘sinners’ not able to do good, until Christ said “Follow Me”…?

Considering Paul, what was the big difference between his actions prior to conversion and after? In a sense, he was serving God prior to conversion, so he thought. He was diligently rooting out those evil Christians who threatened Judaism. Paul was always engaged in service to God, and prided himself of that service (he was a Pharisee after all). But as such, his motivation to do ‘good’ was out of self-righteous pride. His entire life (pre and post-conversion) is a grand demonstration that there is difference between serving God and serving God for the sake of Christ.
As for the other Apostles, we learn from their experiences with Christ, that conversion is inseparably bound to a right relationship with Christ.

As is said, Christ came for the ‘sinner’… not the ‘righteous’. So what are the ‘righteous’ to do? Are they able to do ‘good’ being what they are (after Baptism)? No blinding light; no being called; no conversion; just simply being and doing what their parents thought them in the religious nature through love.

The self-righteous needs to cast off his delusions of being righteous and learn from the grace of God that the only truly righteous one is he that lives in the righteousness of Christ.
We need to chop off the hand that pats us on the back and live for the glory of the Redeemer.

Where is it these ‘unsung’ hero’s belong? The so-called ‘righteous’?

The self-righteous man, if he dies in that unrepentant state, belongs in Hell. But as for those whom God chooses to relate to in mercy, they receive the gift of eternal life.

 

[jean8]

Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?

ikie,
Free choice? That depends. If your buying a car you certainly have the choice to pick the one that suits you.
However, When we decide to walk with the Lord, He has given us a list of rules, which are known as the Ten Commandments. The list can be found in Ex.20, O.T.Why did God give us this list? Did he say, just pick out the ones you like the best? I don’t think so.
When we sin, which is everyday, he tells us to repent.
“It’s a terrible thing to fall into the hands of a angry God.” I can’t remember where I heard this, but it got my attention. O, I think it was Jonathan Edwards.
So much for free will. You can still buy the food you like, the clothes you wear but with the Lord, be careful.

I’,m being a bit facetious, but if your serious , read the Ten Commandments.

God bless,
jean8

PS. See Eph.1:4 Is this the passage everyone is referring to?

 

[jean8]

If God were onipotent he would know what we were going to do before we did it, but we have free will so nobody knows what we are going to choose until the moment we decide, otherwise we are just puppets.

blackst,
What do you mean, “IF” Of course God is omnipotent And he does know what we are going to do.
Free will means ,God doesn’t drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven.
Please read the Bible and he will tell you how to get to heaven. this is your free will.

God bless,
jean

 

[Mike_Dye]

Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?

It is as simple as anything. You can chose to do good or chose to do bad. That is free will plain and simple. Anything else is just justifying what you want to believe.

 

[blackst]

blackst,
What do you mean, “IF” Of course God is omnipotent And he does know what we are going to do.
Free will means ,God doesn’t drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven.
Please read the Bible and he will tell you how to get to heaven. this is your free will.

God bless,
jean

Jean, Hello

If you think that God is onipotent then you must be Muslim, for they believe that God has predestined everything. Are you a puppet, do you do the same thing everyday, have you ever changed your mind, about something? How does God know what your going to do, he is not physical the philosophers say, he is not time, or energy, does he have a mind, what does it consist of, where is it located, how does God know your thoughts, how does he distinguish, between you and 6 billion other people? IF God knows the future then why dosn’t he reveal it to you, are you not worthy to know the truth?

May you find truth and Grace.

 

[blackst]

blackst,
What do you mean, “IF” Of course God is omnipotent And he does know what we are going to do.
Free will means ,God doesn’t drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven.
Please read the Bible and he will tell you how to get to heaven. this is your free will.

God bless,
jean

By the way jean jesus said many will pour over scripture hoping to find salvation. John’s Gospel.

 

[Susan1006]

Example: my grandma, a nice child, loving others and nature; growing up honoring her wifely duties; raised her kids religiously; was a loving and nice grandma… and you say she was ‘unable’ to do good. OK, was she ‘converted’ since Baptism (which happened one week after birth)? Or was she a ‘sinner’ until she made an adult (mature) informed ‘moral’ choice to follow the Way (which she was already doing as a child)? Or until Christ came into her life (at some unknown time… if He did)?
…
Where is it these ‘unsung’ hero’s belong? The so-called ‘righteous’?

What a wonderful quesiton, and God bless your Grandma and mine and all of the grandmas, grandpas, aunts uncles, parents, siblings, friends and acquaintances, not to mention the millions we don’t even know, who haven’t had the opportunity or inclination to follow the fullness of faith offered in the Catholic Church. The church offers a safe haven for learning to follow Jesus. The narrow road to salvation nowhere is said to be through the church. It is said to be through Jesus. Even if we don’t recognize him, he recognizes us. These mysteries have led to persecution and hatred when left to the theorizing of people caught up with their own agendas. One has to have the grand vision of God to see through the rhetoric, pomp and circumstance we have imposed on his simple plan to make things possible for us to be saved from ourselves. The free will to choose good will always be available to us. The free will to choose evil will also always be available. The, “righteous” are those choosing good. I sometimes think of God as a parent who says. “I know you are going to waste this money I am giving you., but it’s a gift and yours to spend. Now prove me wrong.”

 

[blackst]

Example: my grandma, a nice child, loving others and nature; growing up honoring her wifely duties; raised her kids religiously; was a loving and nice grandma… and you say she was ‘unable’ to do good. OK, was she ‘converted’ since Baptism (which happened one week after birth)? Or was she a ‘sinner’ until she made an adult (mature) informed ‘moral’ choice to follow the Way (which she was already doing as a child)? Or until Christ came into her life (at some unknown time… if He did)?
…
Where is it these ‘unsung’ hero’s belong? The so-called ‘righteous’?

What a wonderful quesiton, and God bless your Grandma and mine and all of the grandmas, grandpas, aunts uncles, parents, siblings, friends and acquaintances, not to mention the millions we don’t even know, who haven’t had the opportunity or inclination to follow the fullness of faith offered in the Catholic Church. The church offers a safe haven for learning to follow Jesus. The narrow road to salvation nowhere is said to be through the church. It is said to be through Jesus. Even if we don’t recognize him, he recognizes us. These mysteries have led to persecution and hatred when left to the theorizing of people caught up with their own agendas. One has to have the grand vision of God to see through the rhetoric, pomp and circumstance we have imposed on his simple plan to make things possible for us to be saved from ourselves. The free will to choose good will always be available to us. The free will to choose evil will also always be available. The, “righteous” are those choosing good. I sometimes think of God as a parent who says. “I know you are going to waste this money I am giving you., but it’s a gift and yours to spend. Now prove me wrong.”

What a wonderful quesiton, and God bless your Grandma and mine and all of the grandmas, grandpas, aunts uncles, parents, siblings, friends and acquaintances, not to mention the millions we don’t even know, who haven’t had the opportunity or inclination to follow the fullness of faith offered in the Catholic Church. The church offers a safe haven for learning to follow Jesus. The narrow road to salvation nowhere is said to be through the church. It is said to be through Jesus. Even if we don’t recognize him, he recognizes us. These mysteries have led to persecution and hatred when left to the theorizing of people caught up with their own agendas. One has to have the grand vision of God to see through the rhetoric, pomp and circumstance we have imposed on his simple plan to make things possible for us to be saved from ourselves. The free will to choose good will always be available to us. The free will to choose evil will also always be available. The, “righteous” are those choosing good. I sometimes think of God as a parent who says. “I know you are going to waste this money I am giving you., but it’s a gift and yours to spend. Now prove me wrong.”

Jesus in scripture said the pure in heart would see God, he also said go and sin no more or something worse may happen, he also said wide is the gate that leads to damnation, narrow id the gate to salvation and he said that he would build a church that the gates of hell could not destory, maybe you should read?

If people sin they are a slave and no longer have free will, have you heard of addiction, complusion, insanity?

 

[Michael_David]

Several saints have called all of our good deeds, done without being washed in the Blood of Christ, filthy rags. St. Faustina is one excellent example, as well as St. Teresa of Avila and Blessed Josepha Menendez (and so many more who described our “good acts” as useless or unworthy, since they were not done without a certain amount of pride.) When an act is done in, through and with the Lord, it becomes worthy because it is done in humility. A humble soul is what atttracts our God.

We need to realize what doing good really means.
The difference between self-righteousness and true righteousness.

Owning our sin with humility and contrition is what impresses God. Good works flow from a heart which recognizes the mercy God offers in Christ. This is the heart of true righteousness: owning our sin and confessing God as the only good one.

The self-righteous needs to cast off his delusions of being righteous and learn from the grace of God that the only truly righteous one is he that lives in the righteousness of Christ.
We need to chop off the hand that pats us on the back and live for the glory of the Redeemer.

Even if we don’t recognize him, he recognizes us. These mysteries have led to persecution and hatred when left to the theorizing of people caught up with their own agendas. One has to have the grand vision of God to see through the rhetoric, pomp and circumstance we have imposed on his simple plan to make things possible for us to be saved from ourselves. The free will to choose good will always be available to us. The free will to choose evil will also always be available. The, “righteous” are those choosing good. I sometimes think of God as a parent who says. “I know you are going to waste this money I am giving you., but it’s a gift and yours to spend. Now prove me wrong.”

Jesus in scripture said the pure in heart would see God, he also said go and sin no more…

Rookie, good works done with pride (not ego) are a good thing, and they are done with humility: Fear of the Lord. Even Christ went into His Passion (Humbly) expecting His Father to Glorify Him (in the 3 days) and to be seated at the right hand of the Father (forever) after. With that knowledge and expectation, was it fully Humble? With not one speck of Pride (in being Obedient to the Father’s Will) for the following Glorification?

In the same manner, did not grandma do the same? Humility; Obedient; going about her daily tasks with pride (doing the best she knew how); for the future expectation of getting to Heaven?

Wild Boar, here the terms ‘true’ and ‘self’ righteous means… what? Are not you expecting to get to heaven by doing God’s Will for you here on earth? Are you not your ‘self’? So, logically, you are then self-righteous in your living the way God wants you to (obedience) as you are looking to achieving Heaven by doing so.

Susan, I agree with your (The, “righteous” are those choosing good.). Whether it be how they were raised; Fear of God; doing the right-good thing for others (and for themselves in the end); pride in doing what the Church say’s to do (obedience); or simply because any other way would not be as good… morally, or by their own conscience.

So, the ‘righteous’ do have a place… and do not need to be turned-around or re-converted to do things they are ‘already’ doing (perhaps then doing bad or wrong). Here Faith/doubt have an entrance. Also, it is that pride in doing the right thing (Faith) that hold one on the right path… although others may think these ‘righteous’ need to be saved.

Perhaps it would be better to look in the mirror…

 

[Susan1006]

Jesus in scripture said the pure in heart would see God, he also said go and sin no more or something worse may happen, he also said wide is the gate that leads to damnation, narrow id the gate to salvation and he said that he would build a church that the gates of hell could not destory, maybe you should read?

If people sin they are a slave and no longer have free will, have you heard of addiction, complusion, insanity?

I DO read. Everything you quoted, willy nilly above just proves the point that we don’t know the process, and we accept God’s plan on faith. And if you DON"T think God is omnipitent,l you are not a good Catholic. You may perhaps be the finest of individuals, but accepting what the church teaches us is part of being Catholic. Before you accuse me of being a puppet or worse, let me assure you that I have a mind of my own. but I am a Catholic and I will live according to and proclaim the taching of the church, while working peacably to assist in what I see as useful and helpful reform. As a matter of fact, until everyone is eating well and being protected from abuse and death, I don’t think other issues are at the top of the list of important topics
Insanity, compulsion and addiction are part of thethe proiblem of evil. They are not an excuse for disrespecting God…or Muslims, of whom I am sure you know even less than you know about Christians.
To reiterate my stance in this discussion, the topic is free will. If one has free will, one cannot assume he cannot lose it. If one loses his free will in slavery to evil, he will have to learn to reassert it if he wants tohave free will again. I thinik salvation depends on exercising the freedom to believe in God’s plan and hekp others understand it so they can exercise it.

 

[Wild_Boar]

Wild Boar, here the terms ‘true’ and ‘self’ righteous means… what? Are not you expecting to get to heaven by doing God’s Will for you here on earth? Are you not your ‘self’? So, logically, you are then self-righteous in your living the way God wants you to (obedience) as you are looking to achieving Heaven by doing so.

Until God does a work of grace upon the heart (ie. send His Spirit to dwell in our hearts), we cannot bear the fruit of true righteousness. Prior to his conversion, Paul saw his works of the law as the means of earning God’s favor. But, after conversion, he counted what he formerly thought was gain to be loss for the sake of Christ. Christ’s righteousness is what mattered, not his own. The Spirit of God caused Paul to repent of thinking that he earned anything before God.
Self-righteous means to focus on oneself as if we are righteous in ourselves. It is related to the sins of self-confidence and self-sufficiency. Paul manifested his repntance of these sins when he confessed, for instance, "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me. This confession accords with Jesus own words, “without me you can do nothing.”

 

[Michael_David]

Until God does a work of grace upon the heart (ie. send His Spirit to dwell in our hearts), we cannot bear the fruit of true righteousness. Prior to his conversion, Paul saw his works of the law as the means of earning God’s favor. But, after conversion, he counted what he formerly thought was gain to be loss for the sake of Christ. Christ’s righteousness is what mattered, not his own. The Spirit of God caused Paul to repent of thinking that he earned anything before God.
Self-righteous means to focus on oneself as if we are righteous in ourselves. It is related to the sins of self-confidence and self-sufficiency. Paul manifested his repntance of these sins when he confessed, for instance, "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me. This confession accords with Jesus own words, “without me you can do nothing.”

Here you are referring to what us Catholic’s receive through the Sacrament of Confirmation… which is after First Communion… which is after Baptism. Confirmation is the time the Bishop lays his hands on one and gives them a little slap (both actions have significance) while one’s sponsor has his hand on the persons shoulder.

I do not see self ‘righteous’, ‘confidence’ and ‘sufficiency’ as related at all… other then they are all pertaining to oneself. One is righteous through their religious/moral convictions which are derived from an external source… Church (Bible) and Conscience; confidence is no different then the Apostles having the Holy Spirit being able to perform miracles through that indwelling Spirit… it pertains to ‘all’ that the person ‘now’ is… and able to do or be; and sufficiency is doing or being what one is (fully) in spite of all the ‘flack’ one may receive for being such (the slap the Bishop gives)… again knowing where this comes from (God).

So now, anything you see me doing or being, you may put a neat little “self-” in front of it and call it what it looks like. BUT, you do not see my heart to know where this is coming from, and can ‘assume’ anything your mind thinks at the time… but, do you know?

Do you ‘really’ know where my ‘righteousness’, or my ‘confidence’, or my ‘sufficiency’ are fed from? Yes, it could be from On High… or it could be my ego… but you will have to look into my heart and soul to know… and only God can do that. You do not see if there is Gratitude there (this done in secret); you do not see my prayer-life (this done both in secret and public); in short, you do not see my soul, God does.

You do not hear what God and my soul are saying to each other… His Will for me. What He want’s me to be and do… with His Grace. And it is this Grace that God gives to each according to His Will… as St. Paul says, many different parts, but one body. So each looks different from the other, but are fed from the same source (God).

My ‘part’ may be different then your ‘part’, but I ‘assume’ you are under God’s influence FIRST… until proven otherwise. Not everyone does it in this order. This is my free-will choice to do it this way, it makes loving (even one’s enemy) easier… even these are trying to get to heaven, in the way(s) they know now. So, what ‘part’ are these?

And the idea is to Do God’s Will… for You (Personally). Righteously; confidently; and sufficiently. Even if others around you are doing something else… different parts.

 

[blackst]

Jesus in scripture said the pure in heart would see God, he also said go and sin no more or something worse may happen, he also said wide is the gate that leads to damnation, narrow id the gate to salvation and he said that he would build a church that the gates of hell could not destory, maybe you should read?

If people sin they are a slave and no longer have free will, have you heard of addiction, complusion, insanity?

I DO read. Everything you quoted, willy nilly above just proves the point that we don’t know the process, and we accept God’s plan on faith.

If we were free " as in free will", we would not sin, I know the topic, freedom to choose is not an option for some, so not all have free will, thus addiction, complusion, habit, delusion.

And if you DON"T think God is omnipitent,l you are not a good Catholic.

Why do you call me a bad catholic? God does not give grace and faith and peace to everyone. If God could do everything, and doesn’t he is unloving, I should have said omniscient, all knowing not omnipotent, all powerful. If God waits until the end of our lives to reveal his truth and we live our lives in ignorance, suffering and sin and he does not reveal the reason for our self imposed suffering then he is non-active, non-revealing. Everyone talks about mystery, what about truth, jesus said to proclaim the truth, not hide it in a mystery. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit who would reveal all truth.

You may perhaps be the finest of individuals,

Atheists could be fine individuals, moral, kind, giving of bread and water and clothes, but not living the truth, not feeling love, not feeling peace, joy, gratitude.

but accepting what the church teaches us is part of being Catholic. Before you accuse me of being a puppet or worse, let me assure you that I have a mind of my own. but I am a Catholic and I will live according to and proclaim the taching of the church, while working peacably to assist in what I see as useful and helpful reform. As a matter of fact, until everyone is eating well and being protected from abuse and death, I don’t think other issues are at the top of the list of important topics
Insanity, compulsion and addiction are part of thethe proiblem of evil. They are not an excuse for disrespecting God…or Muslims, of whom I am sure you know even less than you know about Christians.
To reiterate my stance in this discussion, the topic is free will. If one has free will, one cannot assume he cannot lose it. If one loses his free will in slavery to evil, he will have to learn to reassert it if he wants tohave free will again.

So free will is a learned behavior you say, Can everyone learn to be a doctor, a physicist, a mathmatician, we onlyneed to assert ourselves more, so a person who has a disease only needs to learn about this disease in order to be healed, no dependancy on God and Grace?

I thinik salvation depends on exercising the freedom to believe in God’s plan and hekp others understand it so they can exercise it.

What about those who are possessed or constituional incapable of being honest with themselves or others?

Beside we can’t believe without supernatural assistance faith is a gift.

We all sin This is true, but we don’t go on sinning once we had a spiritual transfermation, enlightenment, rebirth, we are free.

WE do have free will, after God grants this to us, not by our merit, but by his grace.

There are many sick people, they don’t need food water, clothes, they need Gods loving grace and truth and power and freedom from bondage and delusion.

 

[matthew79]

Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?

i dont necessarily think its free. its like getting a motorcycle for your birthday and being told “only drive it here or there, if you drive it somewhere else youll get thrown in JAIL! where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth”

so your “free will” is already limited by the rules. now between wailling and gnashing your teeth for eternity and freely driving your “motorcycle” wherever you want to go. who in their right mind would CHOOSE to wail and gnash their teeth?

so of COURSE your choices are influenced by things that were in place before you were even born. you execute your “free” will with the thought in mind that you do NOT want to wail and gnash your teeth for eternity.

so how can you “love” for god be anything more than forced? either you roast or you experience paradise. and how can things forced be a free decision at the same time?

i personally dont get it.

 

[blackst]

i dont necessarily think its free. its like getting a motorcycle for your birthday and being told “only drive it here or there, if you drive it somewhere else youll get thrown in JAIL! where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth”

so your “free will” is already limited by the rules. now between wailling and gnashing your teeth for eternity and freely driving your “motorcycle” wherever you want to go. who in their right mind would CHOOSE to wail and gnash their teeth?

so of COURSE your choices are influenced by things that were in place before you were even born. you execute your “free” will with the thought in mind that you do NOT want to wail and gnash your teeth for eternity.

so how can you “love” for god be anything more than forced? either you roast or you experience paradise. and how can things forced be a free decision at the same time?

i personally dont get it.

What don’t you personally get?

If you think there are rules, there are, but we are free not to obey the laws, free will is the choice to obey or not, if you have free will then you are blessed, there are many who only follow the desires of the flesh, and are addicted to violence, sex, drugs, ignorance of there conscience and conscious thoughts, unenlightened, and motives, the church.

 

[matthew79]

What don’t you personally get?

If you think there are rules, there are, but we are free not to obey the laws, free will is the choice to obey or not, if you have free will then you are blessed, there are many who only follow the desires of the flesh, and are addicted to violence, sex, drugs, ignorance of there conscience and conscious thoughts, unenlightened, and motives, the church.

i dont get the idea that we have free will man.

you say we have the choice to obey or not. sure we do. but we have no choice as to the available choices. either you are good and are rewarded or youre bad and youre punished. that to me takes away all the “free” and leaves us only with will. because who would will be to be punished? nobody would.

if free will is a “gift” as you say, then its comparable to the “gift” given to a homeless guy by a person with lots of money. they give that “gift” and say “get some food with it buddy” thereby ELIMINATING any giving that might have gotten done. it goes from being something given freely to being something given with conditions. therefor its not truly a gift at all.

to further that, the guy with lots of money sees the homeless guy go down the street and buy a bottle. the guy with money grows angry and says “i wont do that again!” well thats not the case with God.

with God we constantly have the opportunity to choose and he NEVER ceases giving us the opportunity. what i dont get is why. what i dont get is how does it profit HIM to have our favor? WHY offer up to us “free” will which has as its end us worshipping him in heaven eternally? surely half of the people who get to heaven under those conditions will only be there because they preferred worship over eternal hell and damnation. not because it was their “will” to love and worship.

 

[morgantj]

Quoting me Scripture assuming it means what you think it means does not convince me of anything. So, unless you explain why those verses support your position, I have nothing to comment on.

What do those verses mean to you?