How Free is our Free-Will?

[fhansen]

with God we constantly have the opportunity to choose and he NEVER ceases giving us the opportunity. what i dont get is why. what i dont get is how does it profit HIM to have our favor? WHY offer up to us “free” will which has as its end us worshipping him in heaven eternally? surely half of the people who get to heaven under those conditions will only be there because they preferred worship over eternal hell and damnation. not because it was their “will” to love and worship.

**No, God offers us what He offered man to begin with in the garden-to choose love over selfishness, good over evil, life over death. I personally can’t argue with those options because He’s simply asking that we do what’s right. Mans problem with this is that he wants no limitations on himself, he wants to decide for himself what’s right, and that is the essence of original sin and that which opens the door for all moral evil we see in the world. Yes, man is limited. He’s not free to do anything and everything-but only in the sense that he doesn’t possess the right to do wrong. He’s been given the freedom to do wrong but not the right. And we have this life to experiment with a decision, for or against-we get to choose whether or not we’ll accept those terms. Perfection, in Catholic thought, is when humans choose to do what’s right because they’ve come to know and agree for themselves that Gods’ will is perfect.

 

[matthew79]

thats all good and well fhansen. but heres what it boils down to for me. i have either the choice of

a. eternally worshipping and praising god in paradise

or

b. eternally roasting in a hell absent of god

which one am i gonna choose? a? yep.

and i am going to choose a because b would be the choice of a fool.

with that in mind, what is the extent of my free will? did god plant us on the earth and say “here is your free will, here is your guide (bible), go and find your way”

or did he plant us at the table to eat and say “here. pick between a or b”

i like to think it was the former, and maybe it is because like you say “i want to decide hwats right for myself” but the more and more i think about it i feel its the latter. and i have no decision at all because WHO would willfullly choose to pick b over a.

and if we have free will. how can we not have the RIGHT to do wrong? that statement in itself to me, contradicts the idea that its free will.

 

[morgantj]

thats all good and well fhansen. but heres what it boils down to for me. i have either the choice of

a. eternally worshipping and praising god in paradise

or

b. eternally roasting in a hell absent of god

which one am i gonna choose? a? yep.

and i am going to choose a because b would be the choice of a fool.

Would it be a fools choice?

You think god is actually going to reward you with A for choosing A given you are only choosing what is right because you are motivated by the reward and fear the punishment of doing otherwise? If you are only doing it becuase of these operant conditions, these consequences, you think he is going to reward you for that?

If he existed, Perhaps he might reward the atheist for being good for goodness sake, where the theist is only being good for the reward and fear of punishment.

 

[blackst]

i dont get the idea that we have free will man.

you say we have the choice to obey or not. sure we do. but we have no choice as to the available choices. either you are good and are rewarded or youre bad and youre punished. that to me takes away all the “free” and leaves us only with will. because who would will be to be punished?

There are millions of people who choose to not to obey, and obey what, what and whom should you obey, what do they teach, what’s required of me?

nobody would.

if free will is a “gift” as you say, then its comparable to the “gift” given to a homeless guy by a person with lots of money. they give that “gift” and say “get some food with it buddy” thereby ELIMINATING any giving that might have gotten done. it goes from being something given freely to being something given with conditions.

Who would give posion to a child, if a person is homeless, then they ahve no responsibilities, we must give them direction, you don’t turn lose a person with a car without insturctions, you give what is needed first, after a person has proven he is responsible in little matters greater responsibility is given.

therefor its not truly a gift at all.

to further that, the guy with lots of money sees the homeless guy go down the street and buy a bottle. the guy with money grows angry and says “i wont do that again!” well thats not the case with God.

with God we constantly have the opportunity to choose and he NEVER ceases giving us the opportunity. what i dont get is why. what i dont get is how does it profit HIM to have our favor? WHY offer up to us “free” will which has as its end us worshipping him in heaven eternally? surely half of the people who get to heaven under those conditions will only be there because they preferred worship over eternal hell and damnation. not because it was their “will” to love and worship.

For some it’s their desire to worship and praise God because of some gift that he gave them, a person who loves them, health, peace, forgiveness, friends, faimily, wisdom, hope, joy.

 

[jkiernan56]

Would it be a fools choice?

You think god is actually going to reward you with A for choosing A given you are only choosing what is right because you are motivated by the reward and fear the punishment of doing otherwise? If you are only doing it becuase of these operant conditions, these consequences, you think he is going to reward you for that?

If he existed, Perhaps he might reward the atheist for being good for goodness sake, where the theist is only being good for the reward and fear of punishment.

“If I have NOT Love, I am NOTHING at all”. Yes, God rewards those who choose the path of Love in their lives … rather than whatever takes a person in the opposite direction - selfishness etc …

If you choose what is Good and leads to Love and Life, you are truly free. Whatever is not, will lead one away from what is Good … away from Love … away from Life … away from God who is LIFE.

You are rewarded by what you choose. What kind of reward do you want? You choose!!!

What God awards us is not something “way out there” … that one receives in the future … God awards us … here and now … in the choices we make now … what we choose that either leads us to life … or death … to Love or Hate … to God … or away from God … you will see the choices a person makes in the “fruits” of their life … as Christ said … “You will know them by their FRUITS”. These fruits are the reward of God for the choices made.

Fruits of the Spirt: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Self-Control, Kindness
Fruits of “the fallen nature” … are opposite of those listed above …

 

[fhansen]

thats all good and well fhansen. but heres what it boils down to for me. i have either the choice of

a. eternally worshipping and praising god in paradise

or

b. eternally roasting in a hell absent of god

which one am i gonna choose? a? yep.

and i am going to choose a because b would be the choice of a fool.

with that in mind, what is the extent of my free will? did god plant us on the earth and say “here is your free will, here is your guide (bible), go and find your way”

or did he plant us at the table to eat and say “here. pick between a or b”

i like to think it was the former, and maybe it is because like you say “i want to decide hwats right for myself” but the more and more i think about it i feel its the latter. and i have no decision at all because WHO would willfullly choose to pick b over a.

and if we have free will. how can we not have the RIGHT to do wrong? that statement in itself to me, contradicts the idea that its free will.

What it boils down to is that man can choose to follow the order God has designed by His wisdom or man will be forever, eternally unhappy. The greatness of man is that he can choose between the options. But he doesn’t create the options. And to choose God is truly great and truly wise-it’s a heroic triumph over the bondage we’re in-a bondage to our own pride-which is mainly just the fear, and yet a paralyzing fear, of the worlds’ opinion of us.

For myself, as I’ve come to understand the faith better, and to know God better as a result, I’ve come to realize that God has always loved man. Man turned from God. And man simply cannot be happy-in any lasting or eternally satisfying way -without God, the source of his life. That’s the gist of our faith and the truth is, no one ultimately rejects hell out of fear because if they truly believe enough to accept that there are two choices -eternal happiness with God or eternal unhappiness without Him, then they’ve already started down the path of faith and love in which case they won’t stay “wavering” for long. If, on the other hand, we don’t at some point start to seek God on our own then we reveal that we haven’t yet really begun to believe any of this anyway. The Catholic faith is about, from beginning to end, God trying to convince and draw man, without overriding his freedom, into realizing for himself that he cannot be happy without God.

**“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” St Basil
**

 

[jkiernan56]

What it boils down to is that man can choose to follow the order God has designed by His wisdom or man will be forever, eternally unhappy. The greatness of man is that he can choose between the options. But he doesn’t create the options. And to choose God is truly great and truly wise-it’s a heroic triumph over the bondage we’re in-a bondage to our own pride-which is mainly just the fear, and yet a paralyzing fear, of the worlds’ opinion of us.

For myself, as I’ve come to understand the faith better, and to know God better as a result, I’ve come to realize that God has always loved man. Man turned from God. And man simply cannot be happy-in any lasting or eternally satisfying way -without God, the source of his life. That’s the gist of our faith and the truth is, no one ultimately rejects hell out of fear because if they truly believe enough to accept that there are two choices -eternal happiness with God or eternal unhappiness without Him, then they’ve already started down the path of faith and love in which case they won’t stay “wavering” for long. If, on the other hand, we don’t at some point start to seek God on our own then we reveal that we haven’t yet really begun to believe any of this anyway. The Catholic faith is about, from beginning to end, God trying to convince and draw man, without overriding his freedom, into realizing for himself that he cannot be happy without God.

**“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” St Basil
**

Question for you - what makes us choose what we choose? What makes a person choose God? Just curious to see what you might say …

 

[fhansen]

Question for you - what makes us choose what we choose? What makes a person choose God? Just curious to see what you might say …

**Well, as Catholics we believe that the grace of God causes us to turn to Him and yet we believe that this grace can be rejected-and this is exactly the point where our freedom is operative. Beyond that, why, exactly one person might take the offer while another doesn’t, I don’t know. I only know that when we respond in faith, when we begin to seek God in earnest, He answers. And as He answers, our trust in and love for Him grows.
**

 

[morgantj]

Question for you - what makes us choose what we choose? What makes a person choose God? Just curious to see what you might say …

We don’t choose. There are no choices.What appears to be choices are not really choices at all, only conditions that further contribute to determining our path.

 

[matthew79]

What it boils down to is that man can choose to follow the order God has designed by His wisdom or man will be forever, eternally unhappy. The greatness of man is that he can choose between the options. But he doesn’t create the options. And to choose God is truly great and truly wise-it’s a heroic triumph over the bondage we’re in-a bondage to our own pride-which is mainly just the fear, and yet a paralyzing fear, of the worlds’ opinion of us.

For myself, as I’ve come to understand the faith better, and to know God better as a result, I’ve come to realize that God has always loved man. Man turned from God. And man simply cannot be happy-in any lasting or eternally satisfying way -without God, the source of his life. That’s the gist of our faith and the truth is, no one ultimately rejects hell out of fear because if they truly believe enough to accept that there are two choices -eternal happiness with God or eternal unhappiness without Him, then they’ve already started down the path of faith and love in which case they won’t stay “wavering” for long. If, on the other hand, we don’t at some point start to seek God on our own then we reveal that we haven’t yet really begun to believe any of this anyway. The Catholic faith is about, from beginning to end, God trying to convince and draw man, without overriding his freedom, into realizing for himself that he cannot be happy without God.

**“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” St Basil
**

i dont believe you. in fact, id be willing to be that if a priest or somebody with some real crdibility came by theyd probably correct you. there is something fundamentally wrong with everything you just said. what it is i cant place my finger on it. but i know youre not right.

 

[morgantj]

**Well, as Catholics we believe…
**

ugh… You put a label before your belief. Are you letting your label determine what you believe? How about following the evidence and allowing what you believe to determine your label if you must slap down labels.

It shouldn’t go “I am a Catholic therefore I believe…” It should go “I believe this this and this, therefore I am a Catholic.” (if the beliefs reflect the substance of the label)

When you slap a label down first as though it is now determining your beliefs instead of the other way around, you have become captive to it.

 

[fhansen]

i dont believe you. in fact, id be willing to be that if a priest or somebody with some real crdibility came by theyd probably correct you. there is something fundamentally wrong with everything you just said. what it is i cant place my finger on it. but i know youre not right.

Well, I don’t mind being corrected. I’m talking of the way I’ve experienced and understood things. But go ahead and try to come up with my errors and we can dialog about it. If it has anything to do with the stuff about happiness, I can show you sources for that. In any case our God and our faith are truly awesome things, properly understood.

 

[fhansen]

ugh… You put a label before your belief. Are you letting your label determine what you believe? How about following the evidence and allowing what you believe to determine your label if you must slap down labels.

It shouldn’t go I am a Catholic therefore I believe… I should go I believe this this and this, therefore I am a Catholic. (if the label happens to coincide with the beliefs)

When you slap a label down first as though it is now determining your beliefs instead of the other way around, you have become captive to it.

You fail to understand how it works and that’s why you don’t believe. The CC isn’t right because it says this or that. It’s just one more voice in a world of opinions. The CC is right because she happens to be right and a Catholic is one who’s come to agree with her. And this is exactly what God wants-not blind “obeyers” but willing “agreers”. Otherwise our faith is stupid because it’s not ours at all but someone elses’ at best. This takes years for most of us. Conversion is a process in Catholic thought-another teaching I’ve come to understand by experience.

 

[davidv]

We don’t choose. There are no choices.What appears to be choices are not really choices at all, only conditions that further contribute to determining our path.

This post is primary evidence that you do choose.

1. You chose to read and respond to the thread
2. You chose to use the particular words and order of them to express your thoughts in this particular post.

And so it will go all of your life. At every turn you will be given choices to do good or not. The sum total of these choices and the final choice to repent or not of the not good choices will determine you fate.

 

[fhansen]

Our freedom lies in the freedom to accept or reject Gods will. In that sense it’s the same freedom Adam & Eve had. No one will enter heaven unless they’ve freely chosen to “love and worship God”-until they finally know the perfection of His will for themselves. This choice is not a flip of a coin or the result of fearing hell. This choice is the result of coming to know and love God, because in his mercy God, who knows the pain caused by mans’ separation from Him, has guided us, has led us, with our cooperation, to know the value of love, to know the value of Himself.

 

[fhansen]

and if we have free will. how can we not have the RIGHT to do wrong? that statement in itself to me, contradicts the idea that its free will.

Adam & Eve were given the freedom to disobey Gods’ will. But He made it clear that this was not their right by giving them a commandment (His will) that they were not to break.

 

[Wild_Boar]

Here you are referring to what us Catholic’s receive through the Sacrament of Confirmation… which is after First Communion… which is after Baptism. Confirmation is the time the Bishop lays his hands on one and gives them a little slap (both actions have significance) while one’s sponsor has his hand on the persons shoulder.

I do not see self ‘righteous’, ‘confidence’ and ‘sufficiency’ as related at all… other then they are all pertaining to oneself. One is righteous through their religious/moral convictions which are derived from an external source… Church (Bible) and Conscience; confidence is no different then the Apostles having the Holy Spirit being able to perform miracles through that indwelling Spirit… it pertains to ‘all’ that the person ‘now’ is… and able to do or be; and sufficiency is doing or being what one is (fully) in spite of all the ‘flack’ one may receive for being such (the slap the Bishop gives)… again knowing where this comes from (God).

So now, anything you see me doing or being, you may put a neat little “self-” in front of it and call it what it looks like. BUT, you do not see my heart to know where this is coming from, and can ‘assume’ anything your mind thinks at the time… but, do you know?

Do you ‘really’ know where my ‘righteousness’, or my ‘confidence’, or my ‘sufficiency’ are fed from? Yes, it could be from On High… or it could be my ego… but you will have to look into my heart and soul to know… and only God can do that. You do not see if there is Gratitude there (this done in secret); you do not see my prayer-life (this done both in secret and public); in short, you do not see my soul, God does.

You do not hear what God and my soul are saying to each other… His Will for me. What He want’s me to be and do… with His Grace. And it is this Grace that God gives to each according to His Will… as St. Paul says, many different parts, but one body. So each looks different from the other, but are fed from the same source (God).

My ‘part’ may be different then your ‘part’, but I ‘assume’ you are under God’s influence FIRST… until proven otherwise. Not everyone does it in this order. This is my free-will choice to do it this way, it makes loving (even one’s enemy) easier… even these are trying to get to heaven, in the way(s) they know now. So, what ‘part’ are these?

And the idea is to Do God’s Will… for You (Personally). Righteously; confidently; and sufficiently. Even if others around you are doing something else… different parts.

I’m not referring to freedom of the will with regard to what we do, or what decisions we make. I am referring to it as to why we do things. An unconverted man is not able to do things for the right reasons. He lives ultimately for himself and ultimately for what he will get out of life. His aspirations and pursuits are geared toward himself as he is fundamentally self-centered. He does not love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. Rather, he loves himself with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. He does not love his neighbor as himself, instead, he loves himself at the cost of his neighbor.
There are many self-centered men who do much good for their community, but they are doing it for the glory of man and not for the glory of God. You try to share the Gospel with them, but their response is, “I’m all set.” Why? Because they are righteous in their own eyes and because following Christ means denying self. They want to hear men tell them, “Oh, you are such a good, self-sacrificing man.” Instead of giving the glory to God, he keeps it for himself. He is proud, and all about himself, and nothing for God.
Jesus said, “Let your light shine in such a way, that men will see your good works and glorify God in Heaven.”
Self-righteousness says, “yes, praise me, see how good I am in and of myself.”
True righteousness says, “Why do you call me good, there is none good, but God.”(Matt. 19:17)

 

[morgantj]

This post is primary evidence that you do choose.

1. You chose to read and respond to the thread
2. You chose to use the particular words and order of them to express your thoughts in this particular post.

And so it will go all of your life. At every turn you will be given choices to do good or not. The sum total of these choices and the final choice to repent or not of the not good choices will determine you fate.

On the contrary, your reply to my post is primary evidence that my post caused and ultimately contributed to determining you to reply to my post. Had I not of posted, you couldn’t reply to it. My post caused you to reply. You couldn’t choose to reply to my post unless I first posted. The “condition” of me posting caused you to reply. And the contents of my post determined the contents of your reply. Had I of suddenly started talking about something off topic, you would either not reply to my post at all, or not reply with the same contents as this reply. My post caused and ultimately determined the particular words you used in your reply. And so it will go all of your life, conditioned, determined, and driven by your environment.

 

[Wild_Boar]

We don’t choose. There are no choices.What appears to be choices are not really choices at all, only conditions that further contribute to determining our path.

Actually, your definition proves there are choices. Our choices (or enjoyments) are means God uses to carry out His purposes. Yet, oftentimes our choices do not further our anticipated course. “the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Prov. 16:9

 

[morgantj]

Actually, your definition proves there are choices. Our choices (or enjoyments) are means God uses to carry out His purposes. Yet, oftentimes our choices do not further our anticipated course. “the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Prov. 16:9

Actually, it doesn’t. And your definition doesn’t support that we have choices either. It supports the opposite. LOL!

If the Lord establishes mans steps, then man really doesn’t have a choice. He is going to step as the Lord has determined him to.