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Wild_Boar
Guest
Matthew 11:20-25. The penalty is not the same. God’s justice definitely suits our crimes!
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Michael_David
Guest
I submit: we are only as free as ‘we’ choose to be by the choices ‘we’ make… for right or wrong; for good or bad; not weighing the alternatives/obstacles into this equation.We are only as free as God chooses us to be.
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davidv
Guest
You can call it slavery if you like. I prefer to view it as the freedom to what is right and good.And the other way is slavery to God.
No freedom anywhere.
Regards
DL
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jkiernan56
Guest
Actually, this for me is the very essence of true freedom - not only the desire to do what is right and good but more importantly the ability to actualize it. Slavery is the exact opposite - the inability to do what is right and good (even if the desire is there).You can call it slavery if you like. I prefer to view it as the freedom to what is right and good.
“For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7
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morgantj
Guest
Acts 13:48
And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Rom.8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate… Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. … For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? … Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13
2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.
2 Tim.1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.
I’d say no free-will.
And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Rom.8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate… Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. … For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? … Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13
2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.
2 Tim.1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.
I’d say no free-will.
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Evan
Guest
I have knowledge of the perfect unit circle. A locus of points of distance 1 away from another point in a plane.
No such circle exists.
What caused my knowledge of this circle?
No such circle exists.
What caused my knowledge of this circle?
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davidv
Guest
So? Why should I believe you?{snip}
I’d say no free-will.
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morgantj
Guest
LOL. Not me, the bible… You quoted my conclusion, yet you did not comment on all the biblical supporting verses I refrenced to support the conclusion? Did you even read any of the verses?So? Why should I believe you?
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
i see yourt still sporting your interpretation of those verses, did you find out what the churches interpretation of them is?LOL. Not me, the bible… You quoted my conclusion, yet you did not comment on all the biblical supporting verses I refrenced to support the conclusion? Did you even read any of the verses?
i still think that mixing theological predestination of the soul and metaphysical free will is a bit of a non-sequitir.
no free will= no sin= no predestination.
if you cant sin, you cant go to hell
and still, predestination isnt a catholic belief
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
maybe im still confused, do you mean some sort of theological free will?LOL. Not me, the bible… You quoted my conclusion, yet you did not comment on all the biblical supporting verses I refrenced to support the conclusion? Did you even read any of the verses?
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morgantj
Guest
Yea, I am still waiting to see how others interpret those verse. That is why I posted them here! I figured posting them in a catholic answers forum specifically on a topic of free-will would be a good place to start to get a catholics view of these verses. But I keep getting no response. They are in the bible, and catholics read the bible don’t they? Do they just conviently ignore these verses?i see yourt still sporting your interpretation of those verses, did you find out what the churches interpretation of them is?
Which is why I am eager to get a response back on these verses from a catholic.predestination isnt a catholic belief
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morgantj
Guest
How many different kinds of free-will are there? There are those that believe god gave them free-will. So I am curious to know how those people that believe this address those verses that from my interpretation support that they don’t have free-will.maybe im still confused, do you mean some sort of theological free will?
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
we dont read the bible the way you may be familiar with. you probably have spent some time with protestants, they believe in a doctrine called ‘sola scriptura’ that the bible is the only source of knowledge about the faith.Yea, I am still waiting to see how others interpret those verse. That is why I posted them here! I figured posting them in a catholic answers forum specifically on a topic of free-will would be a good place to start to get a catholics view of these verses. But I keep getting no response. They are in the bible, and catholics read the bible don’t they? Do they just conviently ignore these verses?
the Catholic church predates the bible, we were witnesses to the events throught the Apostles, so we dont read the bible as something that we individually interpret as they do, the Church, Sacred Tradition, and Scripture are all components of the faith for us. the church tells us what the bible means doctrinally as it is not the only source of knowldge about the faith. the bible must be considered in the light of the magisterium and Sacred Tradition.
which is why you arent getting the amswers you hope for.
you would get better results from using the ‘ask an apologist’ feature for specific interpretationsWhich is why I am eager to get a response back on these verses from a catholic.
i know that we dont believe in predestination so your best source for a doctrine that we dont hold would be the calvinist protestants that do. i dont know if they have forums, but i suppose they do.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
there is only metaphysical free will from our perspective, theological predestination is calvinist, they would know more about it than us.How many different kinds of free-will are there? There are those that believe god gave them free-will. So I am curious to know how those people that believe this address those verses that from my interpretation support that they don’t have free-will.
i tend to think of free will as a matter of physical determinism being broken by our non-physical natures. or as you say given to us by G-d in a structural sense.
but as im a Catholic, and nowhere near familiar enough with Scripture to give you theological answers, i dont know what the churches official position on those verses are, but i can tell you that context, both in the bible and relative to Sacred tradition will play a part.
i think what im trying to say is that you are asking the wrong religion about it. we dont hold to predestination as a theological consept, it doesnt make sense to me, as it circumvents the reason for creation, but thats just one of the many reasons that we dont hold with the protestants.
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davidv
Guest
Quoting me Scripture assuming it means what you think it means does not convince me of anything. So, unless you explain why those verses support your position, I have nothing to comment on.LOL. Not me, the bible… You quoted my conclusion, yet you did not comment on all the biblical supporting verses I refrenced to support the conclusion? Did you even read any of the verses?
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rookieonedge
Guest
Cathechism of the Catholic Church:
1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (Gaudiam et Spes 17, 1).
1748 “For freedom Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1).
The references to predestination made in post 192 do not mean that God predestined individuals and civilizations, but that he foresaw in eternity the choices of individuals and actions of governments, so He speaks in Scripture of their inherent destiny.
1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (Gaudiam et Spes 17, 1).
1748 “For freedom Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1).
The references to predestination made in post 192 do not mean that God predestined individuals and civilizations, but that he foresaw in eternity the choices of individuals and actions of governments, so He speaks in Scripture of their inherent destiny.
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Wild_Boar
Guest
Each creature possesses a certain nature and inclinations. That nature is determined by the One which created it. Any creature’s freedom to choose is limited to it’s nature and inclination. “Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Or the leopard his spots? Then so can you who are inclined to evil, do good.” Jer. 13:23I submit: we are only as free as ‘we’ choose to be by the choices ‘we’ make… for right or wrong; for good or bad; not weighing the alternatives/obstacles into this equation.
Whichever nature God chooses for us is no mere obstacle in the equation. It IS the equation. “God has made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of destruction.” Prov. 16:4
Every man’s only hope of eternal life, is for God to change our wicked nature by His grace. “God be merciful to me the sinner.” Luke 18:13
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Susan1006
Guest
Every man’s only hope of eternal life, is for God to change our wicked nature by His grace. “God be merciful to me the sinner.” Luke 18:13
And THERE is the opportunity for exercising free will. God pursues us where we ask him. My desire for mercy is my will. What God does with it is my hope and my faith is that it will lead to my salvation. The fact that God will let me desire his intervention in my eternal damnation is all I need to be saved. There is no denying that I have to participate in my salvation,and that participation is an act of my will. It can be described in many ways and the mystery can be pondered from many angles, but the fact as we were told it is that through one man sin entered the world and with it death…not for some, for all…and through one man redemption and life was offered for the taking by anyone who chooses it.
And THERE is the opportunity for exercising free will. God pursues us where we ask him. My desire for mercy is my will. What God does with it is my hope and my faith is that it will lead to my salvation. The fact that God will let me desire his intervention in my eternal damnation is all I need to be saved. There is no denying that I have to participate in my salvation,and that participation is an act of my will. It can be described in many ways and the mystery can be pondered from many angles, but the fact as we were told it is that through one man sin entered the world and with it death…not for some, for all…and through one man redemption and life was offered for the taking by anyone who chooses it.
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blackst
Guest
If God were onipotent he would know what we were going to do before we did it, but we have free will so nobody knows what we are going to choose until the moment we decide, otherwise we are just puppets.i am only 19 and a brand new member,so pardon if this looks childish. god is all knowing and all
wise,isnt he ?so that would mean whatever actions we are going
to make in the future or whatever choices we are abt to take is already known to god.that means
all our choices are already decided and we are only playing out a script thats already written.so
how free is our free will actually???
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Michael_David
Guest
Yes, an oak cannot become a maple; a dog cannot become a cat; a radish cannot become lettuce; physical characteristics are set, it’s nature is set! However, a sinner can become a saint (and sorry to say, visa-versa). What our ‘inclination’ is does not have to be the direction we go; physically I am what I am; mentally I can grow and gain knowledge; intellectually I can learn new ways to reason and logic; spiritually it is up to the (free-will) choices I make in the here-and-now… no matter what the ‘obstacles’ or ‘alternatives’. Will those choices be easy? With my natural ‘inclination’? Hardly! (Until I’m re-trained)(Or until His love makes it easy to choose) no matter the ‘alternatives’ or ‘obstacles’.Each creature possesses a certain nature and inclinations. That nature is determined by the One which created it. Any creature’s freedom to choose is limited to it’s nature and inclination. “Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Or the leopard his spots? Then so can you who are inclined to evil, do good.” Jer. 13:23
Whichever nature God chooses for us is no mere obstacle in the equation. It IS the equation. “God has made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of destruction.” Prov. 16:4
Every man’s only hope of eternal life, is for God to change our wicked nature by His grace. “God be merciful to me the sinner.” Luke 18:13
We still have that Free-Will to be a saint or a sinner in any situation and at any time and place. The ‘options’ are there… which will you choose?
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