How Free is our Free-Will?

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This is a formal problem from the triad of Divine Simplicity, God’s Omniscience and my Freewill.

Say I will freely murder Pete next year
God knows I will do this because He Timelessly sees me
This means that at least some of God’s knowledge of it is caused by my doing it
But God has no parts or divisions, therefore there is no “some” about it therefore my murder caused all of God’s knowledge
But God’s knowledge IS God (if we accept a Simple God) therefore my act caused God Himself
Therefore God is not the First Cause, He is contingent (contrary to Simplicity) and we hit a problem of infinite regress.

I keep asking many people, rephrasing it but nobody has overcome it yet. It seems logically necessary that either God is Simple and we have no freewill (Theological Predestination) or God has parts that can move and be caused but we do have freewill.
Either option is unacceptable to a Catholic and, as a Catholic, I insist that I need to be shown the error of my logic or shown another option altogether that doesn’t contradict any other Catholic doctrines.

If you’re going to take an “it’s a mystery” “it’s about faith” or “God build paradoxes into human logic” rout then you need to present a rational argument to defend that.

I do have several other problems with Catholicism but I’ve decided that a one-at-a-time approach is best.
 
Well, I’m afraid you may need to re-phrase it yet again. The only thing I’m getting out of this is pre-destination. :confused:

As far as explaining mysteries, paradoxes and such, how are we supposed to do that? Then they wouldn’t be mysteries or paradoxes, etc… 🤷
 
Saying your behavior causes knowledge is like saying my knowledge of the sun is based on the sun’s existence. The sun is not my source of knowledge. Rather, I know about the sun because I have experienced it - either directly (seeing the sun) or indirectly (being told about the sun). Now, this is regarding human knowledge. God’s knowledge of all things is far superior to our own, because God is perfect. If we wanted to speak humanly of God’s knowledge, we would have to say God’s knowledge is self-existent, for three reasons:
  • God is His knowledge
  • God’s knowledge is infinite
  • God knows all things in Himself
I can give an example: The fall of Satan. God foreknew that Satan would betray Him. He knew that if Satan was subjected to the test, he would fall. Now God is just, so all the angels had to be subjected to the test. But because the Lord knew what Satan would do, God created the angels in such a manner that they could not act without His consent in regard to their intervention in the Univese, meaning, while an angel has free-will, it cannot act extraordinaringly without divine consent, and, moreover, all angelic actions are so orechestraed by God that He is able to bring a greater good out of evil - for example, a person possessed by Satan, once freed, has a greater love for God, his Liberator, and a greater fear of sin (sin leads to possession). Satan is allowed to do as he wishes, in consequence because of the soul giving himself over to Satan because of sin, but he cannot harm the person, he cannot go beyond the limitations which God has placed - so, for example, he cannot touch the person’s soul nor kill the individual. Now, because God foreknew all the actions of the angels, not just Satan’s, he created the spirits in such a precise manner that they would all contribute, either willing (good angels) or unwilling (bad angels), to His triumph over evil. So, for example, the devil took over Judas’ body when he decided to hand over Jesus, but what the devil didn’t know was that Jesus was the Redeemer of mankind: God made the devil ignornant of this knowledge, thus advancing His plans. Yet the devil knew that Jesus was more than human, so he decided to have Him killed before He could fulfill the messanic promises. God foreknew Satan would do this, so He brought a greater good out of evil. Satan had unwillingly contributed to God’s plans. But he was not the cause of Jesus’ death. Mankind’s sins are the cause of Jesus’ death, since Jesus died for the sins of man. It is a crafting of things in such a precise and exact manner, which benefits all things eveywhere and in all times, that the Providence which guides all things to God’s Kingdom cannot be anything but Divine Providence. And all of this will be clear and known on Judgement Day.
 
Perhaps what you are looking for is the understanding of God as the First Cause of all things. You mention the term First Cause, but I am not sure you are applying the God’s primary causality correctly in this situation.

You murder Pete. There are many things involved in this action, and there are many aspects of this action. It might be helpful to first distinguish between a behavior and an action. Action implies intention, behavior does not. All external actions are behaviors as well as actions, but not all behaviors can be considered human acts. God is the First Cause of all human behavior. If you lift up your hand, God was the first cause of that specific behavior. God is also the First Cause of your intentions, insofar as he causes you to decided something (but not necessarily what that something is).

Just because God is a First Cause, doesn’t mean that men aren’t real secondary causes. The only thing that man has primary causal power over is the determination of his will (but not necessarily its exercise)–hence, the possibility of merit and sin.

An understanding of God as First Cause is an incredibily difficult concept, but it is one that ultimately makes good sense. If you are really interested, I recommend the St. Thomas’s Summa Theologica. It takes quite a bit of foundational knowledge to even be able to approach the topic.
 
jkiernan56 said:
My sons are free to drink Clorox … and suffer the consequences … but I wouldn’t recommend it. Inherent in actions … are consequences.
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Somewhat late but if you are still watching this topic.

You ar right of course but you wll notice that the consequence came from the action itself. Not from you applying a futher punishment.

If you did not give further punishment in your scenario, what makes you think that God would?

Regards
DL
 
Susan1006 said:
I really don’t know how these posts reach this point. Or, rather, why these posts reach this point. the analogies are sloppy,the arguments are ridiculous. However; when your children are living in a home you created, eating food you created, and breathing air you created. You may reasonably ask them to respect it. If, to return to the original premise just for a moment, they trash your place, they may claim to be exercising their freedom to do so. The fact that you could stop them doesn’t interfere with their freedom. But their actions will have consequences. You may exercise YOUR free will and throw them out of your presence. THEN, in the abyss, you won’t be able to tell them to make their beds any more. Their freedom will be complete.
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You have changed thescenario a bit from children that havs left the home/garden to them still home but I can speak to yours like this.

Do you not think it overkill to send them to an abyss for just some physical damage to property?

That is close to God placing little sinners like you and I in hell with Hitler.
His sin is much larger than ours and yet the penalty is the same. This is unjust even for God who 's justice is more an eye for an eye or said in legal terms, the penalty should suit the crime.

Regards
DL
 
jkiernan56 said:
Trust me, their own choices will reap their own rewards. You won’t have to punish - the consequences of their actions will do just fine.
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I agree. No need for me to add anything just like there is no need for God to exact revenge.

Regards
DL
 
soma said:
We find free will, but with a limitation. It is like a dog tied to a stake because the dog is free to do whatever it pleases, but it cannot go further than the length of the leash without experiencing pain. Jesus said, “Whatever you sow you shall reap.” Therefore, the evil person will have no greater enemy than himself because everything that strikes the evil person will just be that person’s own evil actions coming back. Pain has this function of teaching us the right path.
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Firstly. A dog that is chained is not a free dog.

“the evil person will have no greater enemy than himself”

And yet you make God a greater enemy than the person himself because you then have God sending him to hell.

Make up your mind. Is he his worse enemy or not?

Regards
DL
 
Saint2B said:
Actually, disagreement is more the natural birth child of the Fall, than it is of our free will, I think. If we had not fallen, we would not have the weight of concupiscence distorting our ability to make choices. Since God wanted to share His love with us, he gave us an intellect and free will so that we can choose to follow Him and in doing so, enrich and deepen our capacity and expression for love. By making right choices, or in using our free will to choose God’s will, we share more and more in the relationship Jesus has with the Father, who reflects and carries out the Father’s will.
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LOL.

That is like saying that God puts us on the end of a long pier, then blocks the exit route and says that now we are free. To either follow his path as he returns to shore or drown.

That is not freedom, That is coercion and him forcing us to follow him. One choice does not freedom make.

Regards
DL
 
jkiernan56 said:
In real love, is there a need for the rule of law? God said He will write His law on our hearts. I believe there will be a day when there will no longer be a need for the rule of law. That is the Kingdom of God fully come 🙂
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In the beginning, it was God’s full kingdom and perfect.

To think that we now are in a place that has back slid says that God has back slid to where he has lost perfection in all that he has created.

Rethink because this cannot be so. Once perfect always perfect.

Regards
DL
 
WAYNE_LEYDS said:
I Think You Miss The Point Of What Free Will Means To A Christian.it Has Nothing To Do With Whether God Knows Already What We Choose To Do Tomorrow.or If He Knows All Our Choices. Free Will Is About Our Free Response To His Love For Us.every Day!!its Our Freedom To Choose His Love Over Anything Else.that Is What Free Will Is About. Not Whether We Go To Work Or Stay Home And Drink Beer!!! Lol!
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Free will is not chose my love or go to hell.
This is forced love.
That is like telling my wife that she is free to love me but if she does not I have a big fire that I will throw her into.

Regards
DL
 
According to St. Faustina’s Diary (she was given the devotion of the Divine Mercy Chaplet to spread), God’s mercy is even greater than His justice. What we call “punishment” is generally the result of events that happen because of our own choices. Some things we don’t have much control over, such as maladies and natural disasters, but God wants to use these events to draw us closer to His Sacred Heart. So at the time of the particular judgment at death, when souls see our own sins, especially those not washed in the blood of the Lamb, they cannot bear the loving gaze directed at them and send themselves into Hell or Purgatory depending on confession and repentance of sin.

On earth we have the opportunity to go through the purgative stage, the illuminative stage and, for a very few, the unitive phase of complete unity with the Trinity embodied in Our Lord Jesus.

Now I’m not a theologian, but have garnered this thinking from spiriitual reading.
 
Justafool said:
You have changed thescenario a bit from children that havs left the home/garden to them still home but I can speak to yours like this.

Do you not think it overkill to send them to an abyss for just some physical damage to property?

That is close to God placing little sinners like you and I in hell with Hitler.
His sin is much larger than ours and yet the penalty is the same. This is unjust even for God who 's justice is more an eye for an eye or said in legal terms, the penalty should suit the crime.

Regards
DL
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Good grief. What has the reaction to do with the decision. Forget the abyss. The bad boys and girls can just campout without their computers for the night. Whether Hitler was free to choose his actions or acting according to some divine plan is an interesting question regarding freedom , but changing the disucssion to whether God’s reaction to our decisions fair or not, is another discussion altogether. That is what I am talking about when I say the arguments are sloppy and won’t have a chance of influencing anyone.
 
Just a thought. What if it all happens again. I mean, what if we finally get it right, make peace with God and someone decides to rock the boat again. What then?
 
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