How Free is our Free-Will?

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PJM said:
Disagreement is so to speak “the natural birth child” of our freewill.
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Actually, disagreement is more the natural birth child of the Fall, than it is of our free will, I think. If we had not fallen, we would not have the weight of concupiscence distorting our ability to make choices. Since God wanted to share His love with us, he gave us an intellect and free will so that we can choose to follow Him and in doing so, enrich and deepen our capacity and expression for love. By making right choices, or in using our free will to choose God’s will, we share more and more in the relationship Jesus has with the Father, who reflects and carries out the Father’s will.
 
The discussion of the most recent pages assumes that there is a state where you can be free of law and rule. As another poster put it, this is “license” in its traditional use.

However, this idea is just theoretical. In reality, there is **never **a state of freedom from law or rule. As St. Paul noted, we are either slaves to sin or to righteousness. We are drawn and ruled by either God’s grace and our response to it, or to sin and its consequences.

There is no way in our lives to step out of this conflict.
 
I am engaged with discussing our faith with a co-worker. I believe he is of a Baptist community although he won’t specify this.

If I understand their belief correctly, they tqke the quote about being a slave to sin or righteousness pretty literally. He thinks God works thorugh him, but that he doesn’t cooperate with God, God does the work. Is this a tuypical Baptist belief or has anyone heard of this?

For example, if I got him right, he said, God loves his wife, through him, but that it is God loving his wife.

So, they believe you do not fully have free will.
 
Saint2B said:
The discussion of the most recent pages assumes that there is a state where you can be free of law and rule. As another poster put it, this is “license” in its traditional use.

However, this idea is just theoretical. In reality, there is **never **a state of freedom from law or rule. As St. Paul noted, we are either slaves to sin or to righteousness. We are drawn and ruled by either God’s grace and our response to it, or to sin and its consequences.

There is no way in our lives to step out of this conflict.
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In real love, is there a need for the rule of law? God said He will write His law on our hearts. I believe there will be a day when there will no longer be a need for the rule of law. That is the Kingdom of God fully come 🙂
 
“Lord let Thy Will be done.” We have free will to choose to let God act through us.
 
“Lord let Thy Will be done.”

To me, this shows a consent of our will, not that God is taking us over to do the work. It shows that we will work with His will and not oppose it.

God is working through us, yes, but I would conjecture that we cooperate with Him and do the work. God doesn’t control us to do the work, but we fully cooperate and gain a sense of how the Trinity works within itself.
 
So, soma, I would think we agree on this. I was perplexed that a Christian group could envision that God is controlling our will, which in my view would not indicate free-will. Also, I didn’t know if this was a typical Baptist idea.
 
Saint2B said:
“Lord let Thy Will be done.”

To me, this shows a consent of our will, not that God is taking us over to do the work. It shows that we will work with His will and not oppose it.

God is working through us, yes, but I would conjecture that we cooperate with Him and do the work. God doesn’t control us to do the work, but we fully cooperate and gain a sense of how the Trinity works within itself.
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Excellent !!! 👍
 
Saint2B, I don’t know if it is Baptist view or not, but I do agree with what you wrote.
 
I Think You Miss The Point Of What Free Will Means To A Christian.it Has Nothing To Do With Whether God Knows Already What We Choose To Do Tomorrow.or If He Knows All Our Choices. Free Will Is About Our Free Response To His Love For Us.every Day!!its Our Freedom To Choose His Love Over Anything Else.that Is What Free Will Is About. Not Whether We Go To Work Or Stay Home And Drink Beer!!! Lol!
 
WAYNE_LEYDS said:
I Think You Miss The Point Of What Free Will Means To A Christian.it Has Nothing To Do With Whether God Knows Already What We Choose To Do Tomorrow.or If He Knows All Our Choices. Free Will Is About Our Free Response To His Love For Us.every Day!!its Our Freedom To Choose His Love Over Anything Else.that Is What Free Will Is About. Not Whether We Go To Work Or Stay Home And Drink Beer!!! Lol!
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True, but even choosing to do and actually doing God’s will is Grace and is God working through the soul cooperating with that Grace 🙂
 
We are completely free but can have our free will interfered with if we permit God by loving, praying and giving ourselves to him. We are never puppets though. As far as the consequences of this absolute freedom go, we must answer for how we use or abuse our free will.
 
jkiernan56 said:
True, but even choosing to do and actually doing God’s will is Grace and is God working through the soul cooperating with that Grace 🙂
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yes but the key word is ‘cooperating’ which is that choice by us to recieve His grace.
 
jkiernan56 said:
Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?
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The greater the “distance” between the commission of the will to a thing, the greater the freedom. I am free to go to London tomorrow, because tomorrow is still future to me; I have no such freedom in the next five minutes, or now, or in the past. I’m not going to go to London, but have freedom to.​

So I am free to write the Great British Novel, & to win the Nobel Prize for Literature: even though neither of these is going to happen; but I’m not free to write “Oliver Twist” or “A Christmas Carol” - Dickens has written those books already.

God is free in that He is infinitely uncommitted to particular things - so He is free to be infinitely committed to each and all of them. We are not free to that “extent”.

Any use to you ?
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

The greater the “distance” between the commission of the will to a thing, the greater the freedom. I am free to go to London tomorrow, because tomorrow is still future to me; I have no such freedom in the next five minutes, or now, or in the past. I’m not going to go to London, but have freedom to.​

So I am free to write the Great British Novel, & to win the Nobel Prize for Literature: even though neither of these is going to happen; but I’m not free to write “Oliver Twist” or “A Christmas Carol” - Dickens has written those books already.

God is free in that He is infinitely uncommitted to particular things - so He is free to be infinitely committed to each and all of them. We are not free to that “extent”.

Any use to you ?
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Interesting thoughts, but at least for me not helpful. I think of Freedom in the sense of Goodness. Something is only as Free as it is Good. I do not think of Freedom in the sense of being able to make choices. The faculty of being able to make choices is called Free Will, but Free Will is not the same thing as Freedom or being Free in its absolute sense

I am going to drive my car to work this morning. So my means of my reason and free-will I make certain choices and perform certain actions. If those choices and actions do not get me to my destination (the Good) … then I do not think I am Free in my understanding of the absolute meaning of the reality of true Freedom. My free-will did not bring me to the Good - therefore I am not truly Free. If my means of my free-will I am able to arrive at my destination (the Good) - then I am completely Free. I am completely Free because by use of my reason and free-will I am able to achieve the Good.
 
Freedom (Being Free) for me is NOT only 1) the ability to make and perform choices (use of free will) but also 2) by use of free will achieve or arrive at the Good.

My destination this morning in my car was to get to my place of employment. If I drove my car in a way that violated certain fundamental laws and principles which caused me NOT to arrive at my job (my destination … ie … the Good), I would say that I was NOT FREE because my actions PREVENTED me from getting to my destination. I was not able to achieve what I wanted by the use of my free will. Now this assumes that what I want to achieve is in the REALM of possibility and reality.
 
jkiernan56 said:
Freedom (Being Free) for me is NOT only 1) the ability to make and perform choices (use of free will) but also 2) by use of free will achieve or arrive at the Good.

My destination this morning in my car was to get to my place of employment. If I drove my car in a way that violated certain fundamental laws and principles which caused me NOT to arrive at my job (my destination … ie … the Good), I would say that I was NOT FREE because my actions PREVENTED me from getting to my destination. I was not able to achieve what I wanted by the use of my free will. Now this assumes that what I want to achieve is in the REALM of possibility and reality.
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The problem is, that there different kinds of freedom - it’s an ambiguous concept 🙂​

 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

The problem is, that there different kinds of freedom - it’s an ambiguous concept 🙂​

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II respectfully disagree. There are NOT different kinds of freedom.

Having free-will is NOT Freedom. It is by means of free-will we are able to attain Freedom. But free-will does not guarantee Freedom. If our free-will (choices) brings us to our destination (what is Good) - to that end we are Free. To the degree that our free-will (choices) do NOT bring us to our destination (what is Good) we are NOT Free. Inherent in Freedom is being able to obtain the Good and arrive at our destination - ultimately which is God WHO is our greatest Good.

If at the end of your life and mine, we do not arrive at the final destination of being with God who is our greatest Good, then we are NOT Free. We would have driven our “car” in the wrong direction. If howerever in this life, we drive our car in the proper direction, we will arrive at our destination - our greatest Good - which is God. The question is - do we want to be Free? Do we make choices (ie - drive our car) that take us in the right direction? Freedom is being able to drive in the right direction - rather than just being able to drive our “car” in any direction.

Are you able to always make Good choices that take you in the right direction? If yes, then you are Free. If not, then you are NOT Free…
 
As conscious beings, I think that we have absolute free will. New choices that we make aren’t based on any previous factors.
 
Dan86 said:
As conscious beings, I think that we have absolute free will. New choices that we make aren’t based on any previous factors.
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I think you’re speaking in the moral sense. Any choices concerning morals/ethics are either right or wrong, at least for those who are above the age of reason or who do not have any mental impairment. (I would think a person with dementia or Alzheimer’s cannot make absolutely free choices.) However, even with a moral choice, there are degrees of culpability. Take the case of abortion. Killing another human being or enabling murder is objectively wrong/evil. Yet many women do not make the choice freely due to circumstances beyond their control, such as a husband/boyfriend who exerts his own will over and above theirs. But I agree that God gave us the right (free will) to choose our final destiny as well as to make any and all moral decisions.
 
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